[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

Leanna said:

I was at least lucky enough to attend a congregation that believes in an age of accountability. I do not believe and have never believed that babies are born defiant, sinful, and out to get you. That is adversarial relationship at its worst.

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Ugh I wish I could rep you.

Leanna said:

I quoted your question, asking for what they think and here are some reponses and I hope they help .... they give me hope, somehow.... I don't know how to explain this but part of what really bugged me about the original question was it makes it out like children are evil (and adults are not) and you are somehow responsible for removing that evil. Just because the fall of man means that everyone is born with a need for redemption does not mean that children are "every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time" and .... which I believe is an incorrect usage of that scripture, taking it out of context to begin with-- and just because my icon doesn't say Fundamentalist doesn't mean I don't know how to look at scripture in context, I had Bible College for that

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I didn't say that I believe babies are defiant and out to get you. I believe that if you look at Scripture as a whole, the Bible teaches we are sinful by nature. Leanna, I know you disagree and that's fine.

I appreciate some of the responses from GCM. I also agree that we can't rebel unless we are specifically rebelling against something, and I appreciate the perspective that if you raise your child to be kind, to be open and thoughtful, and to love the Lord, we can take their rebellion as a "barometer" of something that's going on inside them. There have definitely been times when I've rebelled against the Lord, but I believe I worked through most of that and that this "person who asked the question doesn't function with a certain amount of well-disguised rebellion simmering beneath the surface at least part of the time, herself."

I was actually quite upset by the article on AOLFF, so upset that I had to talk to my husband about it before going to sleep. He's very interested in gentle parenting as well, but I find so much of parenting and childbirth literature in general to be condescending and totally biased. And a vast majority of it treats you like you're an idiot and have never had an original thought in your life.

I guess I'm also a bit saddened that there aren't more people who "gentle parent" who also hold a high view of Scripture. I really want to learn this way of parenting, but I also want to know how it lines up with what the Bible says about parenting and the Christian life. I know none of you know me in real life and you don't know my heart or my story; you and the GCM folks are taking my question at face value and interpretting it as best as you can. But I was not raised in a Christian home, so I'm not just spouting out lines I heard my whole life. I came to faith, with God's help, well into my twenties, and I NEVER just swallow anything hook, line and sinker. EVER. I've been through a lot and had to give up everything I held dear to follow Christ, and He has rewarded me more richly than I ever could have imagined. I also recognize that not every idea or way of life can be found in the Bible. For instance, I believe in going to counseling if you need it, taking medications, seeing doctors, etc. I'm not a fanatic who won't do anything or try anything that isn't clearly stated in Scripture. At the same time, I believe the principles of various choices in my life need to line up with the whole of Scripture and what it has to say about how to live our lives.

BananaCake said:

I was actually quite upset by the article on AOLFF, so upset that I had to talk to my husband about it before going to sleep.

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What was so upsetting about that article? Was it that you felt it was condescending? I would say it like.... do you need to like the author to appreciate the perspective? It sounds like you just didn't like the "tone" of the article.

I guess I'm also a bit saddened that there aren't more people who "gentle parent" who also hold a high view of Scripture. I really want to learn this way of parenting, but I also want to know how it lines up with what the Bible says about parenting and the Christian life.

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That is really very condescending, truly, considering how many women I know who do take scripture very seriously and still do gentle parenting. I feel offended for them, that you cannot take them seriously just because they have a different perspective you say they are not taking it "seriously" ..... just wow. I hope that is not what you intended. There are even a lot of pastors wives on GCM.... I think I should go tell them that they aren't taking scripture seriously enough..... you know, can you just explain what EXACTLY you are looking for?

I NEVER just swallow anything hook, line and sinker. EVER.

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We share this in common.

I also was not raised in a Christian home unless you count my teenage years. My dad started attending church when I was about 8 or 9. I got saved at 14. So you could see it either way. Of course if you come from a Calvinism background you will tell me that I could not be saved if I am not now, right? Well, I wish you had known me back then-- that would be a pretty hard line to sink if you had.

About the sinful nature.... I thought that some of those quotes addressed it.... just because a person is born with a sinful nature in need of redemption does not mean that a child who is misbehaving is doing so because of their sinful nature. They are making wrong choices because they are immature and need to learn. I honestly believe that "parenting gurus" who say that we need to man-handle our children to remove the sinful nature are taking scripture and using it for their own manipulative purposes, and perhaps it is their manipulation you have been reading? Maybe you should phrase the question better? Or just say what exactly it is you are struggling with and where you got it from. For example, if you're reading Ezzo I think you should check out his life-- not exactly something worthy of emulation because he does not respect the authority of those placed above him. So what does he know about sin nature as he displays it by getting regularly removed from leadership? Its worth considering IMO.

Leanna said:

That is really very condescending, truly, considering how many women I know who do take scripture very seriously and still do gentle parenting. I feel offended for them, that you cannot take them seriously just because they have a different perspective you say they are not taking it "seriously" ..... just wow.

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I'm speaking in general about what I've read - not addressing anyone here specifically or on GCM. I'm not one to beat around the bush, so if I want to address an individual specifically, I will.

Leanna said:

What was so upsetting about that article? Was it that you felt it was condescending? I would say it like.... do you need to like the author to appreciate the perspective? It sounds like you just didn't like the "tone" of the article.

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I guess I don't need someone to remind me of the Golden Rule and the fruits of the spirit, and ask me if I ever thought of applying them to my parents. Duh, I'm not an idiot. Why would I apply these principles to every other area of my life and not apply them to my children?

This is where I challenge you to go to the Scriptures and look for words like “love”, “grace”, “kindness”, “forgiveness”, “joy”, “patience”, “peace”, “goodness”, “gentleness”, “faithfulness”, “self-control”. Where are these principles in your relationship with your children? Are they even present in your parenting? If not, I strongly recommend you reconsider what is motivating you as a parent.

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That's one thing that bothered me. I already shared a few other things. That doesn't mean I'm throwing everything she said out the window. I've re-read the article several times and read the 5 steps of parenting, which was definitely helpful.

BananaCake said:

I guess I don't need someone to remind me of the Golden Rule and the fruits of the spirit, and ask me if I ever thought of applying them to my parents. Duh, I'm not an idiot. Why would I apply these principles to every other area of my life and not apply them to my children?

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Some people it really doesn't occur to them, because they see the Old Testament verses about parenting.... that's why there are people who do the "Pearl" thing.

Leanna said:

Some people it really doesn't occur to them, because they see the Old Testament verses about parenting.... that's why there are people who do the "Pearl" thing.

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Not to hijack the thread, but what's "Pearl"?

Its a method of parenting (if you can call it that) that focuses on this sin nature and how you are responsible to essentially "beat it out of them" by force. I'm sorry I brought it up if you didn't know about it.

Leanna said:

Its a method of parenting (if you can call it that) that focuses on this sin nature and how you are responsible to essentially "beat it out of them" by force. I'm sorry I brought it up if you didn't know about it.

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LOL, don't worry - that doesn't sound appealling at all to me

BananaCake said:

I guess I don't need someone to remind me of the Golden Rule and the fruits of the spirit, and ask me if I ever thought of applying them to my parents. Duh, I'm not an idiot. Why would I apply these principles to every other area of my life and not apply them to my children?



That's one thing that bothered me. I already shared a few other things. That doesn't mean I'm throwing everything she said out the window. I've re-read the article several times and read the 5 steps of parenting, which was definitely helpful.

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I think often those articles are written for people who already have children outside the womb-- people who are struggling as parents.

I have been a parent a long time, and I actually find reminders like that awfully helpful- to get me outside of myself and the patterns with which I was raised. It's so easy to slip into the behaviour that is patterned when things are tough, when the stress is running high, and when you have no control over a situation. Well, at least that's true for me.

I find it a HUGE struggle to apply these principles to my children--when it is natural for me to apply them to every other person on the planet. I don't know-- much of my life as a parent and a spouse has been one of feeling like I can't really be myself--because I am the one who has to be responsible. I am the one God entrusted the souls to--- and that is uber pressure--I don't wanna fail. And in that desire to not fail, everything gets all discombobulated- and comes out where I act authortarian--as the primary expression of my God-given authority.

All of that is a way of explaining why I appreciate articles like that. It helps me often to begin from the basics again....and again.

I take Scripture very seriously-- my relationship and my children's relationship with Jesus are my number one priorities. I want to be Jesus in the world and I want to see them as Jesus in my midst--hungry, thirsty, naked and needy. To me that is the greatest gift of parenthood--my children allow me to minister to Christ 24 hours a day- I get to hold His hand and wipe His face. If I see them as Jesus- that is going to necessitate a response other than violence---as I could never see striking my Beloved. To me- Jesus is not speaking symbolically there- He says that whatever we do to the least of one of these we do to Him.

BananaCake said:

I've been reading this thread since it started and have what may seem like a random question. I'm really not sure how to word it actually, but here goes. What do you do when a child is just downright rebellious? I believe the Bible teaches we are all sinful from conception (Ps. 51:5), and that every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5). How do you handle this in gentle parenting? Or in parenting at all, for that matter

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I don't believe that "every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time" and will suggest that this would be a very sad way to look at your little one joining you soon. This type of assumption can cloud the way in which you view your child and their actions, and make parenting (even more) difficult.

I have a friend who grew up with this philosophy. Now that she is a mom, she has a hard time not labeling her child's behavior as "bad"--and has had that problem from day one. When her baby was three months old, she was convinced that her crying was manipulative

One of the things about GP is that it challenges the way you perceive and approach situations. For example, tantrums, to me, are not DD's way of "getting her way", but rather a highly emotional response to an event. (We call them "big feelings") That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated, or that I stand there pleading with her to calm down.

Rebellion can be different things at different ages, and what one person considers rebellion may be a "zest for life" to others. Is there a specific situation you have in mind?

As far a how GP melds with my faith...

First, most forms of dicipline, punishment, etc, will work if used consistently. The question is about the long-term impact on the child, and how they learn to deal with conflict when they are older. Scientists are now discovering that brain pathways are changed and synapses are killed when children undergo stressful situations. (Their cortisol levels sharply increase. even if they are not outwardly crying, blood tests show that their stress system can respond as if they are. High cortisol levels overstimulate the adrenal glands as well as contribute to obesity.) The long term ramification is that as parents, how we love our children directly corresponds to their ability to love as they get older. Even "time out" can trigger the abandonment response in children!

To me, this means that how I treat my daughter will impact her ability to form relationships when she is older--including her relationship with Christ. If I expect her to live a Christ-centered life, to love her neighbors and her enemies, to trust in God, etc, then I have to be able to apply those principles to my parenting.

RoseofLima said:

I take Scripture very seriously-- my relationship and my children's relationship with Jesus are my number one priorities. I want to be Jesus in the world and I want to see them as Jesus in my midst--hungry, thirsty, naked and needy. To me that is the greatest gift of parenthood--my children allow me to minister to Christ 24 hours a day- I get to hold His hand and wipe His face. If I see them as Jesus- that is going to necessitate a response other than violence---as I could never see striking my Beloved. To me- Jesus is not speaking symbolically there- He says that whatever we do to the least of one of these we do to Him.

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Rose, thank you for your truly kind and grace-filled response. Thanks for trying to understand where I'm coming from and not jumping to conclusions about me.

More thoughts later.........

I believe we are 'born sinful' only in so far as we are born with free will, and therefore the potential to sin. That means we all chose to have the wrong thoughts / bahviors etc from time to time. There's a passage in Isiah (sorry, forgotten where, Bible not hand) which makes it very clear that before God our children are our equals, or we theirs, however you want to see it.

The OT clearly shows a cycle of sin, punishment and repentance. If that had been enough, we wouldn't have had Jesus, showing us a different way. I prefer to think of non-punitive parenting as grace-based. We can (metaphorically) beat our children into the right behavior, but just like with the Israelites it doesn't last. People transformed by grace to become more like Christ see that change from the inside - and that change is forever.

For me, the struggle to maintain a non-punitive household is all about showing my children the same grace as God shows me. So that means I see bad behavior as a symptom, and try to tackle the cause; I try to use everything I can as a teaching opportunity and provide them with boundaries (just as God does for us) while equipping them with the tools to handle their emotions.

Which sounds great in theory but the last few days I have failed miserably, falling back into old habits, shouting and so on. So it is still very much a journey for me too. I constantly need God's grace to be the adult!

annaapple said:

So that means I see bad behavior as a symptom, and try to tackle the cause;

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This is so well said

Thanks!

Wow that's all good stuff, and you know I had never really thought about how it could be related to the verse "Whatever you do to the least of these..." That's really interesting.

annaapple said:

For me, the struggle to maintain a non-punitive household is all about showing my children the same grace as God shows me.

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Holy cow - ain't that the truth!! For me it's often tough even showing them a fraction of that grace...

RoseofLima said:

For me it's often tough even showing them a fraction of that grace...

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Ugh, that is me right now. Someone please tell me it gets better when they turn 6.

Julyshemustfly: My friend who has a just 8 yr old and just 7 yr old twins says that it all gets totally different for the best once they turn 7. So sorry, you got a bit longer to wait, but it really does get better!

Bananacake: your original question was, "what do you do if they are just downright rebellious?" and I'm not sure we've really tackled that for you yet. There was some stuff on defiance on pages 7 and 8 of this thread, but here's my attempt at a more practical answer. Not saying I can do this, but here is how I understand the theory...

Non-punitive (NP), gentle, grace-based discipline (whatever you want to call it) is about having a long term game plan. It tries to be proactive as much as possible, and avoid the reactive parenting that often results in the need for punishment. I guess to some extent it depends on the character and age of the child(ren) in question, but the starting point as I see it is to ask what is causing the defiance. Often the causes are:
1. low blood sugar
2. tiredness
3. needing reassurance
4. changes happening too quickly (e.g. from one activity to another)
5. anger displaced from an unrelated incident, trying to get back at you, feel more powerful etc. (which typically arises with very punitive styles of parenting - so the defiance-punishment cycle is a vicious one)

NP practices are NOT about kids running the home, doing what they want, and running rings around parents that are 'soft'. You are always in control, using your God-given authority over your children. And boundaries are vital to that. Some things just have to be done / happen; some behaviors just are inappropriate.

As a high school teacher (who has to have full authority in the classroom at all times) I can tell you that getting locked into a battle of wills with a child is a hopeless cause. They will always go further than you, because they have less to lose. As parents it is all too easy to 'get into the arena' with our kids (you WILL do this because I say so, response: NO, make me!) and in the end we can enforce our will because we are more powerful, can impose punishments etc. But what the kids have learned on a profound level is that might is right and they are no better equipped to handle their own emotions or make the right choices independently.

Putting all of that together, what do I (ideally) do about open defiance?
1. Take a step backwards from the situation
2. Mentally check their food and sleep status - if these are depleted, getting mad will achieve nothing, a box of raisins and a glass of water might.
3. Give them a hug and explain why I am asking them to do that (again)
4. If the answer is still no, ask them to explain why they object (learning to verbalize) and then talk it through with them. For example, often they just want to finish what they were doing before they are ready to move on
5. We reach a solution in which I get my way, but in a manner which is acceptable to us both.

Defiance is rare if you have taken the time to prepare them for what is happening (e.g. when this book is finished we're going to brush our teeth, ok?) and can often be diffused by not allowing it to become a power struggle.

If you don't feel comfortable with that, you might like Ross Campbell's recommendation (How to Really parent your Child) for how to get things done. If the first step doesn't do it, move to the next one and so on:

1. Politely request that the child does whatever you want them to do (or stops doing what you don't want them to do)
2. Command your child to do it / stop
3. Gentle physical manipulation (moving them away or whatever)
4. Punishment - which has to be age, child, and "crime" appropriate.

Technically that of course is not NP, but if full-on NP seems to, well, full-on, maybe that could work for you?

Sorry this has been such a looooooooooooong post! Hope at least some of it has been helpful.