[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

This thread is for parents who are using non-punitive methods of discipline. We can share our struggles, our setbacks,and our successes. This is a place where we can ask questions. I know I really need a place to process the things going on in my household.

PLEASE do not debate in this thread. No harsh words about any style of discipline- no matter how different from your own choices. Let's let charity for our neighbor be our guide!

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

I am reading How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, How To Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Anyone else read it? What did you think? Did you implement the ideas? Just in the week since I started I feel so empowered just to have tools to actually start being the kind of parent I want to be! My husband is going to read it, too!

Linnis · Mar 25, 2007

Wow! My mum read that when I was younger and asked if she could mail it to me.

Ethan's on week 2 of sleeping in the crib(transitioning from co-sleeping/bouncy seat) and we've done so without crying. I'm so happy I waited until he was emotionally ready to handle being in his crib. I think it's kind of sweet when he talks to us softly in the dark before falling asleep although I try to nurse him to sleep for it most of the time.

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

Oh- that is so sweet! I always have a hard time with that transition, because I miss them in bed with me. I sleep better, but I still miss it. LOL! Mostly it hasn't happened until thee's another baby on the way, though--so I haven't had to be alone that long

Leanna · Mar 25, 2007

Oh sweet, I'm here. I'd like to clarify that we don't believe in permissive parenting but in guiding without negative tools such as spanking and punishment. Natural consequences, yes, based on age. Too often I find that people think that grace-based-discipline means letting your children do what they want, but that's not the case. We are still their parents to guide and teach them, but we choose to do it in other ways.

RoseofLima said:
I am reading How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, How To Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Anyone else read it? What did you think? Did you implement the ideas? Just in the week since I started I feel so empowered just to have tools to actually start being the kind of parent I want to be! My husband is going to read it, too!

I haven't read it, but I've heard good things about it... maybe I should read it soon. I have so many books on my reading list these days.

Singin4Him · Mar 25, 2007

It is so interesting that you started this thread. I was wondering today about this style of parenting and considering starting a thread to gain more knowledge on it. Please explain to me what it is and how it has worked for you thus far.

Leanna · Mar 25, 2007

Has anyone read the book Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton? I really mean to... yes me.... I am more interested in the how to's and if she has any examples than the Hebrew/Greek thing that I hear is in there though

~Nikki~ · Mar 25, 2007

Great idea for a thread. I'll pop in often and really really hope to learn a lot from you ladies...seriously.

Linnis · Mar 25, 2007

I agree with, Leanna. It's not permissive, let your children run wild.

With an older child(It's my nephew) we use positive re-enforcement, natural consequences. We didn't use spanking and got away from time outs as I learned more. I respected him and he returned it, he knew how I expected him to do and not to do and normally he'd follow.

As for Ethan, it's attachment based, I'm still learning. I try not to "let" him cry, don't expect him to self do until he does it on his own.

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

Singin4Him said:
It is so interesting that you started this thread. I was wondering today about this style of parenting and considering starting a thread to gain more knowledge on it. Please explain to me what it is and how it has worked for you thus far.

It basically begins with an attatchment outlook on parenting. I am NOT going to say it begins with Attatchment Parenting, because I think that makes people feel there's only one 'right' way- it goes far beyond your feeding and sleeping choices. It's developing a relationship with your baby respecting their time of intense needs and doing your best to meet those needs in a non-advesarial way. As babies develop into older children, hopefully you carry over the attatchment and create a relationship based on mutual respect, as well as self respect (both in the child and in the adult).

It is viewed that the problem with punisment is twofold- #1 it doesn't work (at least not long term) and #2 it destroys children's self respect/ self esteem.

As Leanna and Linnis wrote- this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES!!!!! This is not child led or dominated discipline. If a parent feels enslaved to their child's bad behaviour, they are being too permissive.

Perhaps an example to illustrate. Today we went for a walk in the woods. Several of my kids decided they needed to bring gear of some sort or another. I asked them to think about whether or not they'd feel like carrying it all the way back. One child decided to leave her things behind (except for water). The others took their stuff- and lo and behold got sick of carrying it. I had told them up front that I wouldn't carry it- and didin't. They carried their things home (though I also gave them the choice of leaving them on the ground and coming back for them later--but we discussed what might happen to it in the interim). When we got home- they left their things from the walk sprawled across the table. I announced "I see bags on the table!!" They came and got their things and put them away ( The boundary there is not allowing them to leave their things out). When I went into their room to put the toddler down for her nap- my son's bag was on the floor, though the things in it had been put away. I called to him and, pointed to what he left out and said , "Bag!". He put it right away. (Again the boundary is that he needs to put his things away).

I did not need to yell, lecture, threaten, or punish to make those things happen. On our walk, I didn't need to lecture- they experienced the natural consequence of taking too much stuff. I advised them and allowed them the freedom to experience the 'why' behind my guidance...without saying "I told you so!"

Anyhoo- I don't know if that helps at all

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

Leanna said:
Oh sweet, I'm here. I'd like to clarify that we don't believe in permissive parenting but in guiding without negative tools such as spanking and punishment. Natural consequences, yes, based on age. Too often I find that people think that grace-based-discipline means letting your children do what they want, but that's not the case. We are still their parents to guide and teach them, but we choose to do it in other ways.

I haven't read it, but I've heard good things about it... maybe I should read it soon. I have so many books on my reading list these days.

I hear ya'! My next one I think will be Dealing With Disappointment - as we have a 4 year old who really struggles in this area.

~Nikki~ · Mar 25, 2007

RoseofLima said:
It basically begins with an attatchment outlook on parenting. I am NOT going to say it begins with Attatchment Parenting, because I think that makes people feel there's only one 'right' way- it goes far beyond your feeding and sleeping choices. It's developing a relationship with your baby respecting their time of intense needs and doing your best to meet those needs in a non-advesarial way. As babies develop into older children, hopefully you carry over the attatchment and create a relationship based on mutual respect, as well as self respect (both in the child and in the adult).

It is viewed that the problem with punisment is twofold- #1 it doesn't work (at least not long term) and #2 it destroys children's self respect/ self esteem.

As Leanna and Linnis wrote- this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES!!!!! This is not child led or dominated discipline. If a parent feels enslaved to their child's bad behaviour, they are being too permissive.

Perhaps an example to illustrate. Today we went for a walk in the woods. Several of my kids decided they needed to bring gear of some sort or another. I asked them to think about whether or not they'd feel like carrying it all the way back. One child decided to leave her things behind (except for water). The others took their stuff- and lo and behold got sick of carrying it. I had told them up front that I wouldn't carry it- and didin't. They carried their things home (though I also gave them the choice of leaving them on the ground and coming back for them later--but we discussed what might happen to it in the interim). When we got home- they left their things from the walk sprawled across the table. I announced "I see bags on the table!!" They came and got their things and put them away ( The boundary there is not allowing them to leave their things out). When I went into their room to put the toddler down for her nap- my son's bag was on the floor, though the things in it had been put away. I called to him and, pointed to what he left out and said , "Bag!". He put it right away. (Again the boundary is that he needs to put his things away).

I did not need to yell, lecture, threaten, or punish to make those things happen. On our walk, I didn't need to lecture- they experienced the natural consequence of taking too much stuff. I advised them and allowed them the freedom to experience the 'why' behind my guidance...without saying "I told you so!"

Anyhoo- I don't know if that helps at all

I love your example, but can I ask a question?

What would you have done if your kids had thrown a fit and refused to carry their stuff home. You explain that they can just come back later for it, but they refuse to do that also. How would you handle that?

Plus, if they refused to pick up their bags even after you told them they had to, what natural consequences would you use in order to get them to do what you said?

Sorry, don't want to appear thick, but just wondering how you personally, or someone using 'grace based discipline' would deal with flat out refusals etc...

Thanks very much...

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

It would depend on the child and the situation. If they refused to go back- then it would get ruined and not be replaced. (It's our woods). If it happened again the next time we went for a walk- then we'd have a sit down- I'd present my feelings, ask the child if I understand their feelings about it (giving them a chance to correct me if I got it wrong, so I can understand their POV). Then I'd write down any solutions that I had or my child had to solve the problem- no matter how outrageous. Then together we'd cross out the ones that won't work. And we'd come up with a plan for it to be sucessful. (maybe we decide together for him not to take stuff on walks- maybe it's to only take two things, maybe it's for me to carry it for five minutes on the way home, maybe it's tp use a backpack, etc.)

However, in my experience, most of the time for things like this- if I express my expectations upfront, making sure they have heard AND understand them- there is not ever flat out refusal.

In our house the natural consequence of treating your things like you don't want them- is they go away to another home. Part of the privledge of having toys and things is being resposible for them, if you treat your things like throw away items, that's what mommy will treat them like, too.

Obviously- as a mommy I have to take into acount each child's age and personality and other extenuating circumstances which might have arisen. Also- there is a teaching time involved- I have to spend time teaching my children where things go and how to pick up, offering help if they need it.

Another thing we would do, too with flat out refusal- is talk about it . "It can be a pain to put away your things after walking so far. I feel resentful when I take time to walk with you guys and end up with things all over my table."

Does that help??

~Nikki~ · Mar 25, 2007

RoseofLima said:
It would depend on the child and the situation. If they refused to go back- then it would get ruined and not be replaced. (It's our woods). If it happened again the next time we went for a walk- then we'd have a sit down- I'd present my feelings, ask the child if I understand their feelings about it (giving them a chance to correct me if I got it wrong, so I can understand their POV). Then I'd write down any solutions that I had or my child had to solve the problem- no matter how outrageous. Then together we'd cross out the ones that won't work. And we'd come up with a plan for it to be sucessful. (maybe we decide together for him not to take stuff on walks- maybe it's to only take two things, maybe it's for me to carry it for five minutes on the way home, maybe it's tp use a backpack, etc.)

However, in my experience, most of the time for things like this- if I express my expectations upfront, making sure they have heard AND understand them- there is not ever flat out refusal.

In our house the natural consequence of treating your things like you don't want them- is they go away to another home. Part of the privledge of having toys and things is being resposible for them, if you treat your things like throw away items, that's what mommy will treat them like, too.

Obviously- as a mommy I have to take into acount each child's age and personality and other extenuating circumstances which might have arisen. Also- there is a teaching time involved- I have to spend time teaching my children where things go and how to pick up, offering help if they need it.

Another thing we would do, too with flat out refusal- is talk about it . "It can be a pain to put away your things after walking so far. I feel resentful when I take time to walk with you guys and end up with things all over my table."

Does that help??

Thanks very much - that's great. I really appreciate the time you've taken to reply.

katelyn · Mar 25, 2007

Oh, I'm so glad you started this thread. I want to use this type of parenting, but it's quite different from what I grew up with, so it's a challenge.

I've been reading Without Spanking or Spoiling by Elizabeth Crary and am getting a lot of good ideas from it. So far one major idea that has helped is when Natalie doesn't want a diaper change, we ask her, "Do you want to walk or be carried to go get your diaper changed?" She will usually grab my hand and walk down the hall with me. I don't really know why that works but it does. Of course, the few times that she doesn't comply I do pick her up and go change her diaper anyway.

So, how do you deal with temper tantrums? At home, we allow them, and try to give her words to show that we understand her feelings and to equip her with language to talk about her feelings instead of using crying and etc. If a tantrum seems to be lasting a long time, I will tell her that I understand she is feeling upset but it's time to calm down now, and suggest a different activity for her to do.

We almost had a temper tantrum at the toy store last night (went to pick up her birthday present), but having her say "bye-bye" to the bikes and the balls made her ready to leave without protest. Again, I don't know why that works but at least it does.

Leanna · Mar 25, 2007

katelyn said:
So far one major idea that has helped is when Natalie doesn't want a diaper change, we ask her, "Do you want to walk or be carried to go get your diaper changed?" She will usually grab my hand and walk down the hall with me. I don't really know why that works but it does. Of course, the few times that she doesn't comply I do pick her up and go change her diaper anyway.

Choices work for us too. I might say "do you want to turn your light off or do you want me to turn off your light?" (I know the answer-- he's 2 1/2 of course he wants to turn it off "I'll do it!" ) So then he feels more positive or some control over what happens and that makes him very happy. That's important especially with 'spirited' (what some people call strong-willed) children such as my son. They go through periods of disequillibrium where they're really insecure and that small amount of control "do you want an apple or a banana?" makes them much happier. Then when there is no choice its easier for them, because they had other choices and some control over their own life.

We almost had a temper tantrum at the toy store last night (went to pick up her birthday present), but having her say "bye-bye" to the bikes and the balls made her ready to leave without protest. Again, I don't know why that works but at least it does.

When David was a little younger saying bye-bye worked for us too, even to the playground equipment. Now he seems to understand that just because there are bikes and balls, doesn't mean we get to take one home. Another thing that works is to discuss what we're doing next "okay, now we have a toy for Zachary, now we're going to grandma's house!" Then he looks forward to what's next instead of getting rigidly stuck.

Its really pretty hard to describe though what a 2 year old or a 2 1/2 year old is like and what you encounter until you are actually in it. I had no idea what I would be facing, but we're figuring it out as we go. As he grows we'll figure that out too.

RoseofLima · Mar 25, 2007

With temper tantrums prevention is the best cure! In our family transitonal countdowns are imperative. I always do some countdown of some sort when we are transitioning from one thing to another.

When the tantrum is in full swing- then I try to do reflective listening and give tools for proper expression. However if they are not teachable- I ask them if they want me to stay or if they would like to be alone while they calm down- and also let them know they can change their mind in a few minutes. (I have introverts and extroverts- so some want me there- others really want to work things out alone and then reconnect).

I think it can be confusing to the child to differentiate between expressing those big emotions at home and out in public--maybe I misunderstood what you were saying though?

Leanna · Mar 25, 2007

northstar said:
I love your example, but can I ask a question?

What would you have done if your kids had thrown a fit and refused to carry their stuff home. You explain that they can just come back later for it, but they refuse to do that also. How would you handle that?

Plus, if they refused to pick up their bags even after you told them they had to, what natural consequences would you use in order to get them to do what you said?

Sorry, don't want to appear thick, but just wondering how you personally, or someone using 'grace based discipline' would deal with flat out refusals etc...

Thanks very much...

I don't have older children but I think it helps to think of parenting as a journey where you know your own children and when you get to these points you know what to do then. I can't say for sure what I would do, but I like to think that any child would know better than to want to leave their stuff on the walkway in the woods. Well unless they really do think mommy is going to pick it up, but I think kids know their own parents, kwim? I can't even imagine my 2 1/2 year old doing that though, and he's a big handful sometimes. There are just some things he wouldn't do for his own benefit, such as leave one of his toys in the post office because he carried it there.... maybe it would help if you read Crystal Lutton's book? Sometimes its just a change in how you look at it. I'm just certain that "if you don't obey me I will hit you" is just not an answer for my family, and so somehow we will find another way.

Ahhh I recall an instance when I refused my dad. He wanted me to test the brakes on my bike before we went on a long bike ride, at the edge of our neighborhood. I refused. We went home. I cried a lot because I was so disappointed, but I knew it was my responsibility. But instead of him making it adversarial, he said something along the lines of "I'm disappointed, but I need to know you'd be safe on this ride and so we're not going to be able to go today." Then he just turned and started to ride home. Sometimes I was too stubborn, I still remember that and knew I was wrong but I still didn't get to go on a bike ride that day. Well, I didn't make that mistake again!

katelyn · Mar 25, 2007

RoseofLima said:
With temper tantrums prevention is the best cure! In our family transitonal countdowns are imperative. I always do some countdown of some sort when we are transitioning from one thing to another.

Yeah, I know that has really helped with Natalie and part of why the "bye-bye" toys thing works. It was hard to figure out how to do a transition for such a young child (saying "in 5 minutes" means nothing to her), but we're getting it figured out...I use things like "after Mommy sings this song it's naptime."

I think it can be confusing to the child to differentiate between expressing those big emotions at home and out in public--maybe I misunderstood what you were saying though?

Yeah, I don't really know what I was trying to say either. She rarely throws tantrums in public. Usually if we get close to one we figure out a distraction or other preventative method. In the rare case that she's had a tantrum, we just leave the public area...but that hasn't been a big deal because the tantrum is usually about the fact that she doesn't want to leave.

Thankful4HIM · Mar 25, 2007

whatever

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