[OPEN] Should we Circumcise or not? [split from "Searching for a Messianic Mohel"]

[Wags]

Paul warned against requiring gentiles to under go a man made ritual before being saved. But after being saved they are heirs to the kingdom - adopted/grafted into the family.

Scripture says that gentiles that join themselves to the Lord have the some commands as the natural born citizens. So why would you seek to forbid gentiles from following this mitzvah? Do you think they are second class members of the family?

 

[Ahavah]

Hmm..so let me see then..
My Dad...who is 62... who isn't circumsized
( I only know because he told me)...is only a 2nd class memeber? Ouch. My poor dad....
Wonder when I should tell him the bad news.

 

[Henaynei]

Hmm..so let me see then..
My Dad...who is 62... who isn't circumcised
( I only know because he told me)...is only a 2nd class member? Ouch. My poor dad....
Wonder when I should tell him the bad news.

hmm.... I'm not clear on what your actually trying to say with this statement - the sarcasm I get - it is exactly what you are trying to say with the sarcasm I'm missing

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

The Talmud describes the process of removing the baby boy's foreskin in three steps: The foreskin is cut, the mucous layer underneath is removed with a flick of the mohel's fingernail and then the blood is removed through oral suction.

Often the first two steps are combined, and the fingernail motion is abandoned in favor of a surgical clamp.

In the third step, the mohel traditionally takes a sip of wine in his mouth, quickly sucks the blood off through the wine and spits the mixture into a bowl to be discarded. That's metzitzah b'peh.

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/050211/rite.shtml

"What people don't understand is how widely disseminated the herpes virus is. Statistics say that 80 percent of the adult American population carries it, as you well know from how many people in their lives acquire a cold sore," he said. "It's an omnipresent danger, and for an infant, in the early days before his immune system kicks in, it's not necessarily localized. It can be a systemic infection.

 

[Charles YTK]

Paul warned against requiring gentiles to under go a man made ritual before being saved. But after being saved they are heirs to the kingdom - adopted/grafted into the family.

Scripture says that gentiles that join themselves to the Lord have the some commands as the natural born citizens. So why would you seek to forbid gentiles from following this mitzvah? Do you think they are second class members of the family?

We are Heirs to the Kingdom because of what Yeshua did, not because of Ethnicity. The Galatians were already saved when they were being told to also become Jews and Paul calls them "foolish and stupid" for their actions. He says "will you now complete in the flesh what was begun in you by the spirit? Did you not receive the spirit of God through faith and not by works of the law?" They were already saved but they were being told that now they needed something else to really receive the things God was wanting to give them. You are saying the same thing. This has already been identified as a false doctrine way back then. Why would you try to thrust this upon Gentile men again?

We are not saved through etnicity. Nor do we complete anything through ethnicity or through attention to the Torah commands of an expired covenant. We live in the New Covenant and have received already adoption as sons (daughters) and every promise God has for us. The law of the New Covenant is written on our hearts and we have received the spirit of God to dwell in us and to change us into new creatures.

Even under the Sinai covenant Gentiles were never told to be circumcised except to kill and eat the Passover lamb. Because the Passover sacrifice is given to the blood sons of Israel only and not to the Gentiles. It and Circumcision are given under the Abrahamic covenant. Did you never notice that the Passover sacrifice takes place only for Hebrews and Gentiles were not invited to enter that covering, and this is 50 days before the Sinai covenant is made at Sinai. It is then later at Sinai that the Gentiles are included in that covenant and they are never told to be circumised, but are told only to keep the laws that pertain to Israel under the Sinai covenant. There was no difference between Jew and Gentile in regards to the Sinai covenant. There was and still is a difference in regards to the Abrahamic covenant which is given between God and the sons of Jacob only.

Circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamc coveant only. Sabbath is the sign of the Sinai covenant. Circumcision is given only to the blood sons in the line of Abraham. Sabbath is given to Hebrews and to Gentiles under the Sinai covenant.

The sign of the New covenant is rebirth by the Holy Spirit. The Sinai covenant was oided and replaced with the New Covenant. The Abrhamc covenant is an eternal unilateral covenant and continues through al the others.

Charles

 

[Shimshon]

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven.


Hebrews 13:20 The God of shalom brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Yeshua, by the blood of an eternal covenant.



Hebrews 9:15 It is because of this death that he is mediator of a new covenant [or will].g

Because a death has occurred which sets people free from the transgressions committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.


Romans 4:13 For the promise to Avraham and his seed that he would inherit the world did not come through legalism but through the righteousness that trust produces.


The promise did not come through legalism, AND it does not lead to it. Having begun in the Spirit we do not fall back into physical legalistic observances. Torah is Spirit and is to be 'observed' in the Spirit. First covenant, and second. Both could never make people righteous by mere observance, but by FAITH in what was said. By Faith Avraham was declared righteous, and out of faith did he observe what was told him. His observance means nothing without faith. And his observance (circumcision) was not the goal of his faith. The goal of his faith is eternal life, life from the dead. That all nations will be blessed through his 'seed' (Yeshua) not seeds (Yisrael and the nations). We are blessed and found righteous because of the faith we have, like Avraham. Gentiles are instructed to circumcise their hearts with the Spirit, not their flesh with the stone. They are told by God that they inherit along side us Jews, not because they became one of Avraham's 'seeds', but because they became one of Avraham's children through the 'seed', through faith. Not through becoming adopted among the seeds.

If the whole saved world becomes adopted into the commonwealth of Yisrael, who will be the nations that come up to him in the olam haba? The whole world was saved to become Jewish and observe Jewish law?

Very foolish indeed to lead gentiles into Jewish customs and tradtions with the notion they ARE JEWS under an 'eternal Mosaic' law. This is found in scripture, in the very book Charles is refering to. (Galatians).

 

[Wags]

Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more". Torah defines what sin is. So if those that are saved are supposed to "Go and sin no more" then the logical conclusion is that they are to cease violating Torah.

 

[Charles YTK]

Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more". Torah defines what sin is. So if those that are saved are supposed to "Go and sin no more" then the logical conclusion is that they are to cease violating Torah.

You need to narrow the scope of this. The law that was given to men to keep at Sinai was the 10 commands. That was given to al inluding the mixed multitude of Gentiles. It was these that pertains to men who are in relationship with God through faith. Only Hebrews are to be circumcised. And Only those living in the lands of Israel in the shadow of Gods temple with a functioning Levitical priesthood are to keep the ordinances given for the administration of the nation of Israel under the Sinai covenant and Torah. Look into the Millennial Kingdom and we see that the nations of Gentile are to come up for only one feast, Tabernacles, which is the feast that declares that God is living among us and is King over us. It is a celebration of Gods Lordship. The law for the Kingdom has to change and did change.

Heb 7: [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The law was changed. With the New Covenant comes a New Torah, the Torah of Yeshua the Torah of the Kingdom. The Torah of Sinai only had authority over those living in the lands of Israel. The Torah of the Kingdom is for all those who live in the Kingdom of God, a world wide Kingdom on every continent. It is a different Torah with different regulations. Yes it has some things in common with the Torah of Moshe, but it is not at all a word for word copy. As we see in the change of priesthood and the lack of the temple and the way the Torah of the Kingdom functions according to the teachings of Yeshua.

JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It is a different covenant and has a different Torah.

Where in Moshes Torah does it call for a man to sell all his worldly posession and give the money to the poor? Not in the Torah of Moshe. But in the Torah of messiah, if your wealth stands between you and God you are to get rid of it. It is a Torah that is directed at a new heart administered by the Holy Spirit in us. It works deep in the heart not through external mitzvot, but through a new nature raised up in us

Charles

 

[debi b]

oopths! double post...

 

[debi b]

Only Hebrews are to be circumcised.

Genesis 17
10 Every male child among you shall be circumcised;

11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.

12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations,
he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. .

13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

Charles,

While it is not required, it is not forbidden. Two different things. If a Gentile is guided by God that he should be circumsized who are we as humans to say he is wrong?

 

[Shimshon]

he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant

is blood born or bought with money....... FROM a foreigner.

So where here does it command the gentile foreigner to be circumcised? Only when he becomes a slave of the house, bought with money can he become part of the home. This is not a command for all gentiles to enter into the family and be circumcised. It's a command that whomever you purchase, is 'the Lords'. And should be treated as such. Not a command for all gentiles to become circumcised SO they could become part of the family.

The verse you quoted in now way shows a command for all gentiles to be circumcised and join the family of Jews. It shows that EVERYTHING we have is not ours but Gods. And falls under his commands for us. If is was given to us, it is ours. God gave them money and prosperity and afforded them to buy slaves. Instead of treating them as the world does, they were to treat them as God would. And include them in the inheritance.

ALL gentiles are not called to be circumcised in that verse. Only those who were 'purchased' by a Jew. Thus they became a Jew. But the foreingers were never called to be circumcised, only the ones they bought from them.

 

[Wags]

"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets." (Acts 24:14)
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[Charles YTK]

Genesis 17
10 Every male child among you shall be circumcised;

11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.

12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations,
he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. .

13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

You have to understand the ancient processes of adoption. A child who is bought is adopted and becomes your child. This child would be considered one of the Hebrews from that time on and as such would become part of the covenant which is sealed with the circumcision. So once again the circumcision is for the Hebrews. In some cases the Jewish family would adopt the entire Gentile family because it was the wishes of the Gentiles to become a permanent part of the Hebrews. They too would be circumcised. Later in the Sinai covenant we see that gentiles who live in this way, attached to some family of Hebrews must become Abrahamic covenant members before they can kill and eat the Pesach sacrifice.

Ex 12:

[48] And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

 

[Charles YTK]

Charles,

While it is not required, it is not forbidden. Two different things. If a Gentile is guided by God that he should be circumsized who are we as humans to say he is wrong?

I would agree. Timothy was just such a Gentile. He was motivated I think to be circumcised to seal the relationship between himself and his Jewish brothers and to be able to fellowship with them in temple and in the Moedim.

However this is not what Wags was saying. She said that once we are saved it is key to our becoming heirs of the Kingdom, a conditions of receiving the promises and blessings of God. And that is the same false teaching that was being forced on the Galatians and others, that unless you were circumcised you were less than the rest of the Hebrews and could not please God.

God chose to bless the Gentiles AS Gentiles through Messiah. He is a light and hope and a Joy to the Gentiles, BECAUSE through Him Gentiles also receive the promises of God even though they had the misfortune of not having been born a Jew.

The middle wall of separation was torn down by Yeshua. Some want to raise it back up and make a line of distinction between Gentiles and Jews.

The way the New Covenant works, the Gentiles who never had a covenant never had th elaw now do the very things contained in the law showing that they are living in the New Covenant having the law written upon their hearts.

Remember how th eisciples were so excited to see that when they preached the Gospel to th eGentile, they too received the holy spirit just as the Jews had received Him. God made no distinction. There is not longer Jew or Gentile, only the redeemed and the lost. It is not based on ethnicity or on our works. It is the free gift of God through Messiah.

Sure if a Gentile wants to adjoin himself to His Jewish brothers and elects to be circumcised, then he can become a member of the Abrahamic covenant, but he is also obligated to keep that covenant as well. If he does it to enter the broken Sinai covenant, he is fooling himself, because Even the Jews can not keep that Covenant any longer. It is impossible. All they can keep is Rabbinical traditions and ordiances that are loosely based on the Torah of Moshe. Without Levites, Temple, Jerusalem, the Moedim, the ashes of the Red Heifer, the Sinai covenant can not be kept. I believe God took these things away so that it could not be kept. Because it is not his will for us to try and live in it. He is offering us the New Covenant made through the sacrifice of Yeshua. That is his offer, take it or leave it. The New covenant is the better covenant made on better promises sealed not with the blood of an animal but in the sinless Blood of Yeshua. The Sinai covenant looked forward to the New Covenant. If we try to live in the Sinai covenant we are saying to God that we do not accept the New Covenant and prefer to wait for a better covenant, by keeping the one that held the place until Yeshua was to come.

We may not agree with a lot of what our Christian brothers teach, but on this point they are correct.

Charles

 

[Charles YTK]

"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets." (Acts 24:14) [/FONT]

And when he wrote that the church was still living as a trans-covenant church, with both a Temple system and priesthood (which did not end until 135 AD) and the Gospel. There was a need for a short period of time to keep both systems so that a transition could be made and to allow the Jews raised in the temple system to complete their walk in that.

Isn't it interesting that from the time of the Passover of Egypt to the the call to finally enter the promised land 38 years and 4 months, that it was the same number of days from the Passover of Yeshua to the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem. God gave the same time frame to complete the walk through the dry places with the old covenant.

 

[Shimshon]

The Torah says your sins are forgiven, so do the prophets.....they say your in a new covenant because of the work Yeshua did for us. They say Yisrael will be scattered into the nations and there they will 'be forgiven for their sins'. Not they will return to the law of sin and death. Sin is defeated, Yeshua reigns, we are his children, holy spotless and pure. The Messianic Comminity is the 'household of God' here on earth' (1Titus 3:15)

Yeshua said, "Go and sin no more". Torah defines what sin is. So if those that are saved are supposed to "Go and sin no more" then the logical conclusion is that they are to cease violating Torah.

Yeshua said 'your sins are forgiven'. Removing the curse he removes the judgements (law). If we are forgiven our sins, we are no longer judged by the law. But free from the law to serve in fullness and truth. Meaning, the law was put into place to deal with the sins of the people. Yeshua took our sins away, he forgave them and by faith we recieve this. So if there is no more sin to deal with, because Yeshua having dealt with it 'once and for all' on the cross. Then there is no more law to bring us under a curse. Or point out our 'sins', because we have none in union with Yeshua.

This is the verse i'm talking about;

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[Charles YTK]

RO 8: [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


This is all accomplished by walking in the spirit which we receive as part of the New Covenant havig been forgiven our sins and receiving death to our old sinful nature exposed by the law. Our minds are now living in subject to the law of God by the spirit in us.

 

[Wags]

Sorry I don't believe that "once saved, always saved" is a biblically sound doctrine.

Yes my sins are forgiven, but that doesn't mean that I am free to go on sinning.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 2:13 For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 3:31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.[/FONT]

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[Shimshon]

No one is speaking about OSAS. I don't believe that doctrine either. No one is saying you keep sinning. How do you come up with this idea?

Go sin no more, your sins are forgiven. You are free from sin and death. You will live with God forever as his child, if you have faith in his Words. He said so much more would happen from within the Torah. It has come, He has come, come down to walk on the hills of Tziyon himself. And make a covenant with us by his own blood. And promise us the gift of union with him through the Spirit. So we may walk in the ways he predestined 'before' eternity. Before the giving of the law at Sinai. He has a way he wants us to walk that is BEFORE the law was given. The law only shadowed it. The LIGHT has come into the world and those who live in sin run from it. Least their sins be exposed and they must ask for 'forgiveness'.

"I desire Mercy over sacrifice" He who forgives much loves much, he who forgives little, loves little......