Open rebellion against God

[Johan_1988]

Absolutely yes, we can lose our salvation! But we can never lose our eternal life or our new spiritual birth.
Just think for a moment, how can we receive life eternal, if it can be lost the next year? Obviously such life was never eternal at all, we were lied to!

New birth happens an instant, a one off event. In contrast salvation is not a one off event, but a lifelong process of change and deliverance.

Consider the prodigal son, did he cease being his father's son when he disappeared far away?
Did he cease to be his father's son when he was eating pig food?

The prodigal was always his father's son, but until he repented and returned, he remained out of fellowship and devoid of the blessings of sonship! He lived far away from his heritage and salvation.

That's what losing your salvation is about, and why we should stop conflating it with being born again. They are entirely different.

Sadly, most Christians never appropriate their salvation till they die. They get born again and then get locked into some religion or other, but that's another story!

Hi, please look at my answer I gave above to Cassie. It is right above this reply you gave to me.

 

[Johan_1988]

Sure , that is true. I do however speak only from doctrinal understanding. I have seen these things happen in front of my own eyes.

The parable of the sower explains this process clearly of certain people that believe and fall away.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

What does the bible say about those who do not bear fruit in themselves.
Matt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Francis Drake]

Hi, please look at my answer I gave above to Cassie. It is right above this reply you gave to me.

I can find no such post. Please quote the post number.

 

[Johan_1988]

I can find no such post. Please quote the post number.

Oh Yes, sorry check out post 13.

 

[Johan_1988]

There is consequence for sinning - in this life and the next. But it is not damnation. Eternal life is just that. Eternal. The wicked behaviour of the believer in Corinth got him thrown out (if only the modern church was as strong on discipline) but he was not totally rejected. It was a temporary state to bring him to his senses.

It's the opposite of what many people imagine. If a person refuses to quit sinning and thinks a sinful lifestyle is ok, then it is evidence that they were never born again in the first place. In order to be born again, an individual must be convicted that they are a sinner and repent. The new, born again spirit hates sin. Yes, by their fruits you will know them.

The confusion arises because there are two salvations (three if you include the physical body). The spirit is saved instantly and irrevocably. The soul is saved progressively and to the degree that the believer cooperates with God in this life. Obviously there is a great deal more, but I hope you get the idea.

Sorry I forgot to answer you on the salvation point. They are not saved seperately. They are saved together as the scripture says:

1Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Thess 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

The flesh won't be saved? What about this scripture:
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Francis Drake]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul is speaking to the saints here, those who have been sanctified, yet have returned to living under a curse! They are still born again, but not walking in the salvation it grants to them.

It is possible to fall away and I don't understand why you describe the word salvation in such a way. Salvation means you were saved from something, eternal damnation, in this case. Eternal life is on the condition of having faith in Christ and being born again in the Spirit, but if you keep on sinning and stop repenting of your sins you are going back on your commitment to faith in Christ you will lose your salvation since this scripture speaks of those whom fall away from faith in Christ and bear bad fruit :

Salvation is far more than being saved from eternal damnation. As I have many times pointed out, salvation throughout the scriptures always implied earthly deliverance from 'Philistine, Famine and plague', or their equivalent. To tie the word just to eternal life has no scriptural basis.
To demand obedience to rules completely denies our sonship and replaces it with us purchasing eternal life by works.
Additionally, to make "eternal life" conditional, immediately denies the meaning of "life eternal". How can it ever be considered eternal if in the next breath you lose it? Lol.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Like many, you completely reverse the intended meaning of this scripture. The writer is merely pointing out that if a person has to be renewed again (ie.born again -yet again) as he did the first time, it would require Jesus to die all over again, putting Jesus's first sacrifice to shame as not being sufficient.

Stating otherwise just says a person can be saved and continue to live like a sinner without consequence. Which is false.

Absolute nonsense. Scripture makes it clear that there are consequences for believers of sin and worldliness in both this world and the next, but eternal life remains eternal.

1Cor3v12Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. 14If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.
Most believers' lives are filled with wood hay and stubble. It will go up in smoke as utterly worthless when the Lord returns. But they will escape because like the prodigal, they will always be sons of their heavenly father.

 

[eremitic]

Absolutely yes, we can lose our salvation! But we can never lose our eternal life or our new spiritual birth.
Just think for a moment, how can we receive life eternal, if it can be lost the next year? Obviously such life was never eternal at all, we were lied to!

New birth happens an instant, a one off event. In contrast salvation is not a one off event, but a lifelong process of change and deliverance.

Consider the prodigal son, did he cease being his father's son when he disappeared far away?
Did he cease to be his father's son when he was eating pig food?

The prodigal was always his father's son, but until he repented and returned, he remained out of fellowship and devoid of the blessings of sonship! He lived far away from his heritage and salvation.

That's what losing your salvation is about, and why we should stop conflating it with being born again. They are entirely different.

Sadly, most Christians never appropriate their salvation till they die. They get born again and then get locked into some religion or other, but that's another story!

I’d argue that people conflate salvation with sanctification. Sanctification is a process; salvation is instant, a one time thing. Salvation and the rebirth are one and the same. They would logically have to be.

 

[eremitic]

And how He coerces one is just like Jonah, He makes their life a living hell tell they turn back to Him...

So, how is this not a form of force, if He’ll essentially torture us (but not really, because it’s actually the enemy doing it, God is just allowing it, of course) to get us to appeal to Him, and follow Him, whatever that actually entails, given that most folks can’t even discern what His will is for their life...

I know I’m being cynical here, but how can I trust and love a God that would use another individual against me, in retaliation for not giving Him enough headspace?

 

[Not me]

So, how is this not a form of force, if He’ll essentially torture us (but not really, because it’s actually the enemy doing it, God is just allowing it, of course) to get us to appeal to Him, and follow Him, whatever that actually entails, given that most folks can’t even discern what His will is for their life...

I know I’m being cynical here, but how can I trust and love a God that would use another individual against me, in retaliation for not giving Him enough headspace?

Scriptures says we love and respect our earthly fathers when the chastise us for some temporary good. Should we not the more respect and love our Heavenly Father when He does it for our eternal good?

So it comes down to, do you believe God is good, and is that goodness pointed towards you??

Be blessed in seeing His goodness and love pointed towards you...

A fellow believer, Not me

 

[eremitic]

So it comes down to, do you believe God is good, and is that goodness pointed towards you??

I’m trying to. I’ve been struggling with this lately. It’s hard to put my faith and trust in a God who I feel is waiting for me to mess up so He can spiritually beat me over the head.

 

[Not me]

I’m trying to. I’ve been struggling with this lately. It’s hard to put my faith and trust in a God who I feel is waiting for me to mess up so He can spiritually beat me over the head.

Well, that may be how you feel, but it’s not the truth..

Scripture says, He that spared not His own Son will He not freely with Him give us all things...

Truth is, God is good in the most real sense of the word..

It is trusting His love and goodness pointed towards oneself that will bring the heart, peace, rest and joy...

Just by faith purpose in your heart to not lean on our own understanding, but simply trust His love and goodness towards you..And you by experience will taste His love...

Be blessed in the tasting, Not me

 

[Francis Drake]

I’d argue that people conflate salvation with sanctification.

Most people have no clue what sanctification means.

Sanctification is a process; salvation is instant, a one time thing. Salvation and the rebirth are one and the same. They would logically have to be.

Absolutely not.

Throughout scripture, salvation is seen as a daily process of deliverance in this life, with resurrection life afterwards.
As with our first earthly birth, our rebirth is just the start of a journey. As with the prodigal, despite being his father's son, he had completely lost all benefits of sonship, until he repented and returned.
Sadly, most believers, sons of God, remain their whole lives outside of God's blessings and salvation.

 

[Johan_1988]

Paul is speaking to the saints here, those who have been sanctified, yet have returned to living under a curse! They are still born again, but not walking in the salvation it grants to them.

Salvation is far more than being saved from eternal damnation. As I have many times pointed out, salvation throughout the scriptures always implied earthly deliverance from 'Philistine, Famine and plague', or their equivalent. To tie the word just to eternal life has no scriptural basis.
To demand obedience to rules completely denies our sonship and replaces it with us purchasing eternal life by works.
Additionally, to make "eternal life" conditional, immediately denies the meaning of "life eternal". How can it ever be considered eternal if in the next breath you lose it? Lol.

Like many, you completely reverse the intended meaning of this scripture. The writer is merely pointing out that if a person has to be renewed again (ie.born again -yet again) as he did the first time, it would require Jesus to die all over again, putting Jesus's first sacrifice to shame as not being sufficient.

Absolute nonsense. Scripture makes it clear that there are consequences for believers of sin and worldliness in both this world and the next, but eternal life remains eternal.

1Cor3v12Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. 14If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.
Most believers' lives are filled with wood hay and stubble. It will go up in smoke as utterly worthless when the Lord returns. But they will escape because like the prodigal, they will always be sons of their heavenly father.

Can you please explain then the word "impossible" in Heb 6:4.

And this scripture:
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Francis Drake]

Can you please explain then the word "impossible" in Heb 6:4.

It means exactly what it says.
If my new birth is paid for by the death of Jesus, and that new birth can somehow be lost, then there is no further sacrifice available for the next "new birth".

And this scripture:
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is about their walk (ie. parable of the prodigal son) and not a reference to eternal life. Subsequent verses make that clear.
Romans11v28For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Israel had rejected its walk with God, but the covenant would never be abandonned by God. Likewise, my new birth is irrevokable, even if my life is a rebellious mess.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Most people have no clue what sanctification means.

Absolutely not.

Throughout scripture, salvation is seen as a daily process of deliverance in this life, with resurrection life afterwards.
As with our first earthly birth, our rebirth is just the start of a journey. As with the prodigal, despite being his father's son, he had completely lost all benefits of sonship, until he repented and returned.
Sadly, most believers, sons of God, remain their whole lives outside of God's blessings and salvation.

The only question I have to the prodigal is if he had an inheritance or just a place at their dinner table?

 

[Johan_1988]

It means exactly what it says.
If my new birth is paid for by the death of Jesus, and that new birth can somehow be lost, then there is no further sacrifice available for the next "new birth".


This is about their walk (ie. parable of the prodigal son) and not a reference to eternal life. Subsequent verses make that clear.
Romans11v28For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Israel had rejected its walk with God, but the covenant would never be abandonned by God. Likewise, my new birth is irrevokable, even if my life is a rebellious mess.

If you talk about God's covenant to the Jewish people and the gifts and callings of God I agree. God does not take those back.

I do however believe according to the previous passages that you can still lose eternal life, because just as God did not spare the Jews whom did not believe in Jesus Christ so he will not spare us gentiles whom give up on believing, trusting and following him.

 

[Francis Drake]

The only question I have to the prodigal is if he had an inheritance or just a place at their dinner table?

He was a son when he departed.
He was still a son throughout his adventures.
He was still a son when he returned.

That's the whole point of Jesus telling the parable. If you can't see that simple fact, then you are obviously confused about the Fatherhood of God.

 

[Noxot]

I feel is waiting for me to mess up so He can spiritually beat me over the head.

God is not like that. it would make him worse than many humans. anything that makes God to be evil or less than imperfect humans is not the truth. all holy scripture must be interpreted in a way worthy of God, which implies having our conversation in heaven. the letter kills and the spirit gives life. God kills and God keeps alive. blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. we must be born from above to receive the things from above. only like can know like.

since God is goodness and truth itself it means that we must be such in order to know God. all heavenly elements in us aid us in knowing God and all hellish elements teach us what God is not. so we do not just have a bible that "plainly" tells us who God is. it affords us some truth, but God is spirit and we are too and this is how we worship and come to know God.