GraceLikeRainFallsDown
Everyone Needs Grace
After re-reading it, I agree with you. I went back and forth on it. So, that is why I wanted to know how others were reading it.
Thank you for both of your responses.
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This is a second letter addressed to the same person. When he uses the first person plural, he's talking about himself and his audience.
I agree with PassthePeace1. Also, I think Athanasius is not primarily concerned with foreknowledge, but with God's provision. Adam and Eve could have sinned against God without God having told them the consequences. But in His provision, God told them that they would abide in death if they broke fellowship.
In Chapter 2, he says, "For if, as they say, everything has had its beginning of itself, and independently of purpose, it would follow that everything had come into mere being, so as to be alike and not distinct. For it would follow in virtue of the unity of body that everything must be sun or moon, and in the case of men it would follow that the whole must be hand, or eye, or foot. But as it is this is not so. On the contrary, we see a distinction of sun, moon, and earth; and again, in the case of human bodies, of foot, hand, and head."
Well, it is not that the non-canonical apostolic texts were too important, but that the Bible had less importance, as it has always been up to 1200 years later.I thought it interesting that Athanasius quotes the Shepherd of Hermas alongside scripture, sandwiching it in between quotes from Genesis 1 and Hebrews 11. I sometimes forget how important the non-canonical apostolic texts once were.
I had a question. In Section 3 of Chapter 1, he says "since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things - namely, a law and a place."
When I first read it, it implied to me that he felt since God gave us free will He would not know what we would chose so He created a plan to secure us. While I agree that God gave us free will and created a plan to secure our salvation, I also believe that God knows all and knows what we will do before we do it. He knows which way we will turn. (Maybe I am reading too much into the statement.)
How do you guys interpret this line?
In Latin and in Greek there is the use of saying "We" instead of "I" to give an idea of importance of the writer or of neautrality, like to say "in the other book written by Athaniasius, there is written that...".In the first section, first sentence, he says "in our former book . . ." By "our" does he mean someone else co-wrote the book with him or is it a translation issue.
I think here we have the basic ideas of St Athaniasius:§4...By nature, of. course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom : " The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption." (Wisdom 6. 18)
i thought it was really interesting what he said in chapter one about creation vs. evolution ... "If He only worked up existing matter -and did not Himself bring matter into being, He would be not the Creator but only a craftsman."
really blows a hole in the Big Bang Theory. i wonder how evolutionists would reply to this (i'll store this gem in the back of my mind and hopefully i'll get to use some time).
I don't really want to get into origins theology, here (there's another forum for that), but I don't think Athanasius was talking about evolution or the Big Bang because they were another millennium and a half in coming. Both of those ideas are "craftsman" sorts of ideas and don't really discuss "Creator," too, but Athanasius' dispute seems to be with people who are discussing "Creator" (or lack thereof).
So God created a place (the garden) and a law (do not eat the fruit) to allow the man to be really free, and so "in image of God".
In fact if the man were "without a free will", he would be a slave, not like God who is completly free (please note how St Athananius underlines the freedom of God in creating: God had not only made them out of nothing, but had also graciously bestowed on them His own life by the grace of the Word. )
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She has a point though that Anathasius was basically in complete disagreement with theistic evolution, even though he didn't know it yet.
She has a point though that Anathasius was basically in complete disagreement with theistic evolution, even though he didn't know it yet.
I actually disagree with modern evolutionary theory and theistic evolution.
Orthodoxy is about God and His Creation.
So the two are incompatible because the two do not agree with or comply with the inerrant word of God.
There are many many Orthodox who do not share your view.
There are many many Orthodox who do not share your view.
What about the second chapter? I can't think of any good discussion questions right now, but I will say that I like the analogy he draws in section 9 -- about how the king visiting one house honors and protects the entire city. In the same way, since Christ has inhabited human flesh, the power of death no longer holds sway within the "city" of humanity -- at least not for those who are in Christ.
So -- is two chapters a week going to be good? (According to the chapter breaks linked in the OP, that is -- they are several sections each). Or would y'all rather adjust the amount we have for discussion each week?
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