Open-minded agnostic seeker

Rational Inquirer · Nov 7, 2015

As an agnostic who strives to keep an open mind, the aspect of Christian doctrine that disturbs me the most, and seems like it would prevent me from ever accepting Christianity, is the teaching that non-Christians go to hell. It doesn't make sense to me that if you don't happen to pick the right religion, you get tortured forever and ever. Do a billion people in India deserve eternal suffering simply because they were born in a non-Christian society? Am I looking at this the wrong way? How can I reconcile this teaching with the Christian conception of a loving and just God?

1watchman · Nov 7, 2015

Non-Christians are those who are naturally born in sin ---all of us (see Genesis 1 and the Epistle to Romans). Without the Savior we would all perish in time. Everyone must be "born again" (John 3 and 1 Jn. 5:10-12). Read your Bible and see the truth of this! If one does not want to bow to the Creator-God that one will be condemned to Hell forever, as God tells us. What is your choice, friend? You were probably not born in a heathen country, and probably have heard the Gospel message as in the New Testament. What will you do about it before you die?

In the foreknowledge of God He knows exactly who will not receive Him, no matter where they are born. Look up always, for God cares! I suggest you visit the very sound site at www.biblecounsel.net to see much ministry on what God intends for His testimony. Write me personally if you wish to discuss this in detail, friend.

paul1149 · Nov 7, 2015

God judges man on what he does with the available light, not on labels or culture. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they were blind they would have had no sin, but because they saw and would not believe, their sin remained (jn 9). God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them (2cor 5). This still is the case. You can be sure that, as Abraham implied, the judge of the whole earth will do what is right.

Don't let a common misunderstanding of Biblical doctrine - one that is very prevalent in the culture and is often delightfully used to denigrate Christianity - keep you from investigating for yourself who Jesus really is. He promises, "If you remain in My word... you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." The very moral sense we have, which we use to weigh these questions, is a reflection of His nature, because we are made in His image. We are not superior to Him in these things, but rather, "man judges the appearance, but God looks on the heart". You will never find Jesus respecting externalities (Jn 4), nor find New Testament doctrine that promotes superficiality.

Winken · Nov 7, 2015

We are all born outside of the will of God. We are all born as sinners, regardless of where we live, without regard to "religion." God came to us in the Person of Jesus Christ to tell us that we can become re-born, saved for eternity, by receiving His Message of salvation by Grace through Faith. Look at Romans 10:8-13. Think about it. Then read John 3:3, John 3:16-17, John 5:24, John 14:6, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Agnostics, atheists, seekers, will ask questions like yours. That is a good indication that God has got your attention. Follow up on that!

TheJust · Nov 8, 2015

There is a difference between the rules of christians and the laws which govern reality.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 9, 2015

Romans 1:18-20:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 2:14-15:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Take heart:

Isaiah 55:6-7:
Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Aidan K · Nov 9, 2015

The Christian Faith is not the only way to worship God

graceandpeace · Nov 10, 2015

First, many Christians don't believe in "eternal conscious torment." I do think it's clear from the Gospels that Jesus believed in some sort of exclusion from the Kingdom of God - from being part of God's setting right of all things - but what that exclusion looks like, or how long it lasts, is something that seems less clear.

Second, many Christians would agree that just being non-Christian does not automatically result in exclusion from God's love or His Kingdom. Many would agree that God loves the whole world, & it is not for us to speculate on the fate of those who "never heard" of Jesus or for different reasons reject Christian religion. Our job is to help realize the Kingdom of God here & now - by loving & serving others.

Rational Inquirer · Nov 10, 2015

What a great reply, thank you. This is a vision of Christianity that jibes much better with me than the ones that are usually presented.

Hawkins · Nov 11, 2015

That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.

Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.

If it's not because of this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't need a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!

So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.

Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.

Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.

God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with the relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.

Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.

What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally come to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.

God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.

Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.

Albion · Nov 11, 2015

This comment of mine may not add much to the discussion, but the reply you have just praised is indeed a commonly-held one among Christians. It was presented well by graceandpeace, I agree, but you shouldn't think of it as unconventional.

abysmul · Nov 11, 2015

I'll be another who steps up and says, "good post"!

Those who are open minded and questioning should pray and read the Bible, and be certain to understand that the red faced men, on certain street corners, waving the "you'll burn in HELL signs" do NOT represent all of Christianity.

TheyCallMeDave · Nov 11, 2015

Yes, I believe you are looking at it the wrong way.
Every single one of us have at some point discarded our Creator, chose to follow our own way of living, and cannot measure up to Gods holiness . Its not a cultural thing but a universal thing called SIN. God has given the people in India the same opport8nity to move closer to God who will in turn get the Gospel message to them involving CHrist and redemption. Many don't want to pursue it, many are willing to settle for worshipping statues and other things they make idols out of including immoral living , and most people alive today just want to live being their own god unto themselves . Secular humanism in America today blatantly snubs its nose up at GOd saying we don't need you, we want our pleasure things, and you have no place in my life. So, God in his faithfulness simply gives the anti-God person what they always desired on earth for eternity : Eternal living void of God . We call it hell . The Bible does too and adds they are lost forever and ever. God is totally just in allowing people to choose hell if they want .

Futher, if you fwant a good book to read and learn why agnosticism and atheism is untenable, get this incredible book :'I Don't have enough faith to be an atheist' at www.amazon.com . It gets into the atheists mind as well as presents all the info on Gods existence, Jesus' resurrection, absolute moral laws, and the like. Its my favorite resource book and ive read it about 4-5 times thru. PM me if you like, Dave. A former atheist., or at least , a professed one.

Steven Wood · Nov 11, 2015

I had a really hard time accepting this too. It kept me away for a long time. The Bible tells us that JESUS will not return until all have heard, this also means those who have already died. We also know that people are called to Christ no matter what religion they were born into and free will let's us decide what we're going to believe. It may not sound like it's a very big deal but it actually is. Think if you did so much, over and over for people to the extent of JESUS and his sacrifice and over and over you kept saying that people will have no other gods before you truthfully because everything else that claims to be a god is actually a fallen angel and a demon and is going to hurt you.Now after all the warnings even though you've saved them time and time again people still worshipped the demons. You would not let them allow them into the kingdom that you created, they ignored every warning you gave over and over, worshipped other things and now want to live in your kingdom. Could you honestly say you'd do that? God is loving and Just but the word just means we get what we deserve.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 12, 2015

There are many Christians who don't believe this sort of thing. My own Catholic tradition has the concept (developed by theologian Karl Rahner) "Anonymous Christian". I tend to stay within the Louis Massignon and Thomas Merton traditions of viewing other faiths: they're valid in and of themselves and each one expresses something deep about being human.

There is also a more traditional idea which goes back to Clement of Alexandria, Origen and even the Cappadocian Gregory of Nyssa, that of apokatastasis. One can find this view in the Apocalypse of Peter (a particularly gruesome ancient apocalypse); the idea behind it is that all will come to know God. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians can hope and pray even for the salvation of Satan. Some more contemporary thinkers who have expressed this view include Timothy Kallistos Ware and David Bentley Hart, both from within the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Soma Seer · Nov 12, 2015

In a word, no. By that, I mean that I do not believe that God condemns to hell anyone who is not a practicing Christian during his/her lifetime. I think that embodying the spirit of God in the world--truly living as we're meant to, offering God's love to others--makes one's religious title irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

brinny · Nov 14, 2015

Well that's just it. He IS just. And holy. His mercy however is staring all of us right in the face. It's His mercy and forgiveness and inexplicable grace that is right there, through His only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ.

Isn't it?

Dirk1540 · Nov 15, 2015

You don't get tortured forever, you cease to exist.

Maybe a Christian in here can answer me this...who's to say that you don't get 'A moment' at the time of your death if it is the case that you sincerely were tricked into false belief, and that in the right situation you would have chosen Christ? I can't help but to think of concepts such as WHEN do you die, combined with concepts of time. Einstein literally proved that time is relative. Who's to say that at the moment of death, 1 second before your actual death it does not equate to a month's worth of time with God where he reveals the truth to you and presents you with an 'Honest moment of decision time?' I am not talking about the person who legitimately rejects God, I am talking about a person who would have accepted.

I myself have actually experienced the relativity of time. I'm not about to claim some crazy experience, I just happen to be one of those people who dream all the time. Anyway, I have had moments where I hit the snooze button on my alarm clock (for 10 minutes), took a few minutes to fall back asleep, and fell into a dream that easily lasted an hour...then got woken up about 6 minutes later! So I have first hand experience with the relativity of time, I KNOW it is a fact. Who's to say when death is?? Who's to say that God does not enter in before death to those who were deceived?

By the way you do not get tortured forever you cease to exist. Read the book 'The Fire That Consumes' by Edward William Fudge' it's a pretty technical book that breaks down this concept Biblically.

terryjohn · Nov 18, 2015

Do aithiests really get such images of hell from reading scripture or are they just parroting what others say it says? Hell and its torments are but natural consequences of our working against the way things are. Even nature shows us that there is away that leads to life and another that leads to death. Many may not see much of a difference between hell and the lives they are currently living. The issue is not an intellectual one or even a moral one for men but about trying to justify ourselves.

Albion · Nov 18, 2015

Yes, but Christians in general and throughout history have held that the damned will be separated from God in the afterlife, forever, and will suffer as a result. It is so commonly accepted as part of Christian theology that non-Christians are exposed to it routinely such that we don't need to ponder the possibility of them having been misled somehow.

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