[OPEN]Just a question

[BarbB]

I certainly don't look at observant Jews as "targets". Rather as brothers and sisters who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Tishri1]

Thank goodness this is an open thread.....this is the most personally challenging thing I've read at CF for a while.

When I see observant Jews the first thing that crosses my mind is "I hope they don't know Mom" and I want to run and hide, avoid eye contact and the like. I think "here comes a lot of nosey questions". Once I get over that initial reaction, my feelings become more mixed. I hurt because I feel some distance from my community but at the same time know that my faith is both logical and life-changing.

I never witness to my cousins and brothers, and I don't know why. I witness to everyone else, usually with great results. I really just miss being part of the community, but at the same time glad not to be in it, if that makes sense.

So, I guess my answer to this question is that my feelings are mixed, but I don't regard my Jewish brethren to be targets or "lost" or anything like that. I just want to get alongside them and talk about anything but religion. It's strange, but I'd rather just be their friend.

It's a strange place to be. I don't feel like I fit in with the Jewish community in any sense outside of family any longer, but at the same time I don't feel recieved by Jewish believers in Christ either, unless they attend my church of course.

*no words just hugs...mmmahhhhhhh!

 

[chunkofcoal]

I'm staying out of any discussions, as it certainly is not my place here.

But I have a question, and figured here is the best place to ask, and I'll get sincere answers.

When a messianic sees an observant Jew or community of Jews, what do they see? Do they see a person or people about whom they can say something like, "cool, those people are living out their beliefs, worshipping Hashem, etc" and then just leave them alone to go about their business? Or do they see them as targets? As a person or people whom they must evangelize? I think there is more I'm trying to ask, but can't figure how to say it, so I'll leave it at this and hope you can understand me.

I don't mean offense, and I'm sorry if my jumbled wording implies such. I'm just curious and seek understanding.

Thank you.

There are some who feel like Joseph probably did when he recognized his brothers, but they didn't recognize him and thought he was an Egyptian.

 

[Tishri1]

There are some who feel like Joseph probably did when he recognized his brothers, but they didn't recognize him and thought he was an Egyptian.

how does she do that!splendid splendid

 

[ContraMundum]

There are some who feel like Joseph probably did when he recognized his brothers, but they didn't recognize him and thought he was an Egyptian.

That's quite profound.

 

[ChavaK]

Remember the passage about Moshe and how bright and lit up his face was after he spent time with El on the Mountain so long? How the people were "scared" of him and he put on a veil over his face to dim the light?

Moshe could have taken the other "Other" option, and instead instructed them to the point that they understood why he shone so and was so happy about spending time with Yah... but instead chose the easy out to not offend anyone and veiled his face.

We are told in the writings of Paul, that when people hear Torah and do not see Messiah in it (as believers do/ought to) that the veil is on their hearts, as it was in the day of Moshe from the mountain.

Just as the veil was once on our hearts when we didn't/couldn't/wouldn't/didn't want to understand Torah and Messiah being Torah, and Messiah teaching Torah, and the shadows of the things Messiah was to do, did, and is still to do on the feasts and fast days; so too do others who do not understand.


I know it sounds kind of "out there" or "flukey" but think of it this way... when you explain your torah observance to "Average Joe, USA" - he doesn't understand.

Partially because of the cultural difference/history differences and a myriad of other reasons (one such as: maybe it just isn't his time to understand yet)...

hope that helps some and I haven't muddied the water any further

Hi, no you haven't muddied the waters! Thanks for the explanation, I have heard this type of statement before
but wasn't quite sure how to understand it...

 

[Henaynei]

what do I see? I see two different things when I see a "community of Jews" or when I see "observant Jews"

a) "community of Jews" - almost every where in the US that = a collection of Jewish folk who have left or rejected observance - except occasional very minimal this or that. When I see these my heart breaks and
I fear for them - for they are distressingly similar to the community during Elijah's time, or any other time Israel turned away form G-d - I pray for their t'shuvah!!

I do not see them as a target! Not for me! If my relationship with HaShem causes an occasional person to ask why, I give them an answer to their question. I don't launch into a doctrinal dissertation!

b) the "observant Jews" - essentially I see them this way:

I can not judge their kavannah any more than I can judge the kavannah of "observant" Christians, if you know what I mean? So... given the assumption that their kavannah is essential and G-d directed, I see them
as walking very close to HaShem.

I do not see them as a target! Not for me! If my relationship with HaShem causes an occasional person to ask why, I give them an answer to their question. I don't launch into a doctrinal dissertation!

I essentially approach both the same - I am called to stand along side and to support and defend.... I am called to live as close to the instructions of HaShem as I humanly can.... Occasionally G-d honors me in
that He permits me to develop a relationship that is such that I, over time, earn the right to discuss things with this or that individual....

Example:

I was placed in the life of a dear non-observant woman, a co-worker.... we became friends even though we were worlds apart in our beliefs (she was in to New age and Ayurvedic medicine) - over about 10 years of
various and numerous challenges, situations, sharing of trials and mutual support she and I can to understand each other's spiritual focus - she has since made a t'shuvah of sorts (she is still into some
occasionally "different" health and spiritual things but she is much more conversant and intimate with her Judaism than she once was) I pray she comes still further!

second example:

I have been going to the Kosher warehouse 60 miles from my home for nearly 17 years. (BOY - do I miss them - in both observance and personal relationship ways - now that I've moved to North Carolina!) When I started going I was very nervous and fearful that observant folk would sniff out that I was a shiksa somehow make it known I was not welcome..... AND I was just beginning my journey toward Torah at the time, I'm sure it showed.... but the owners and employees of the warehouse have watched me over the years. We have come to be on a first name basis - I would call them when I left work (almost 120 miles from them - and with barely 2 min extra time to get there before they closed on Thursday) and give them my order over the phone, esp. for the butcher.... and they knew I'd be there as fast as I could without flying - and I knew they'd have the order ready and them some! I'd fly in the door and they'd shush me and make me slow down.... chat with me and so forth..... what I'm trying to say is that they watched me grow over the years... they knew I was not Jewish, it came up fairly early on.! .. they knew my husband is..... and eventually I was as comfortable there as in my own living room! One day, when I met a Christian friend there, because we wanted to have lunch and it is the only kosher place for dozens of miles, their grown daughter came over and talked with me about my beliefs and I was honest. Her parents heard our conversation as well Whilst she didn't fall on the floor and become a Messianic (I didn't want or expect such!), neither was there ever any indication of change in their open and personal relationship with me (or me with them).

another example:

My mum & dad-in-luv

My husband had become a Christian years before he met me. His dad had forbidden him to talk about it or use the name of Jesus in the home.

When Art brought me home to his parents they were loving, accepting and open. And I respected their rules

Our wedding was the strangest affair - the most odd assortment of Christian and Jewish one can imagine - but all done with a sincere heartfelt respect for both on our part - I'll tell you about it some time!

Not more than a year after our wedding I (as he still says, albeit jokingly) dragged Art to a Messianic Synagogue - he was terrified! After all he'd "left" Judaism years ago and all he could think of is that it
would be like that alte' shul in which he was bar mitzvah'd and where he had been terrified of being struck down by G-d if he dropped the horribly heavy Torah scroll as he carried it around the shul after his
bar mitzvah!

We eventually left the church and over the years became less and less Christian and more Jewish, but still strong and faithful believers and servants of Yeshua.

As our observant lifestyle began to conflict with his parent's non-observant lifestyle lo and behold, we were allowed to say Yeshua and to barakah in their home. We even had them over each year for the various
festivals!

They remained steadfastly non-observant and assimilated. But you could tell they were proud of their son's return to Judaism, even with Yeshua!

Dad died 2 years ago, a"h. Since then Mum has been a bit more comfortable with us. She shares every Shabbat with us and makes every effort to be sure to offer us only kosher food in her home (and we honor this by accepting it with joy and appreciation and accepting that her kitchen and dishes are not kosher in any way )

Maybe this gives you an idea about me and my family - I hope it is a good one .....

Sorry I wrote so much I just got going.... and.....

Basically it comes down to this: The way I figure it I have a lot more to learn from them than they from me! G-d make me a talmidah chacham!

b'Shalom dear lady!
Henaynei

 

[Sammydiggins]

A very apt illustration!

Thank you.

 

[jgonz]

I get excited... I guess more like Tishri described! Certainly Not as targets. That's... ewww.

 

[Tishri1]

I love all these stories here.....Here is a funny one...

My son was invited to a Bat-mitzvah of a girl in his Jr Hight class at school...They rented out the Space Needle for this affair! The next month she is at our house for my son's birthday and it was during Hagamatzah and we dont eat kosher yet ( that was 8 1/2 years ago) I offered her some pizza, "no thank-you it's got yeast" she says
cool I think and I peal off the top and offer it to her on a matzah cracker...."no thank-you it's got ham she said"


I was so impressed with her dedication and her parents were real curious why we had matzah in our home.... we were sooooo new to celebrating the feasts but they really appreciated a christian would even want to do such a thing.....They were not put off either that we offered their daughter HOG-a -matzah




ABBA I wouldnt mind if you brought that young girl back into our son's life someday when he is ready

 

[Sammydiggins]

I love all these stories here.....Here is a funny one...

My son was invited to a Bat-mitzvah of a girl in his Jr Hight class at school...They rented out the Space Needle for this affair! The next month she is at our house for my son's birthday and it was during Hagamatzah and we dont eat kosher yet ( that was 8 1/2 years ago) I offered her some pizza, "no thank-you it's got yeast" she says
cool I think and I peal off the top and offer it to her on a matzah cracker...."no thank-you it's got ham she said"


I was so impressed with her dedication and her parents were real curious why we had matzah in our home.... we were sooooo new to celebrating the feasts but they really appreciated a christian would even want to do such a thing.....They were not put off either that we offered their daughter HOG-a -matzah




ABBA I wouldnt mind if you brought that young girl back into our son's life someday when he is ready

Haha! That's awesome. Funny, yet the girls dedication was remarkable. I just hope I can be like that each time a similar instance arrises...

 

[ChavaK]

There are some who feel like Joseph probably did when he recognized his brothers, but they didn't recognize him and thought he was an Egyptian.

Hi COC, can you clarify your statement for me?
Are you saying that messianics are Jews, but
we don't recognize them as such? Does this
apply to both gentiles and born Jews? Also, I
have heard about being "grafted in"...can someone
explain to me what this means?
Many thanks for taking the time to explain things to me,

 

[Henaynei]

grafted in means becoming a part of the Commonwealth of Israel, but it does not mean becoming a Jew

those who serve HaShem, natural or grafted in, share the common root of faith, the One True G-d. We share a common source of spiritual life and sustenance. But because one is serving and obeying HaShem does not mean they necessarily are Jewish.

This has always been so from before Sinai. A "foreigner" could become part of the Jewish community - when they chose to obey the laws. But they were G-dfearers, like Cornelius (see Acts 10). They could bring sacrifices to the Temple (Court of the Gentiles) and the Priests would accept their sacrifices. But they were not Jews

these are aka Ger Toshav or Ger Tsadik

 

[chunkofcoal]

Hi COC, can you clarify your statement for me?
Are you saying that messianics are Jews, but
we don't recognize them as such? Does this
apply to both gentiles and born Jews? Also, I
have heard about being "grafted in"...can someone
explain to me what this means?
Many thanks for taking the time to explain things to me,

Hi Chavak,
I don't think all Messianics are Jews, but Yeshua was "sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matthew 15:24; and as a "minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" Romans 15:8 - so some Messianics and Christians are probably of the house of Israel.
Yeshua also gives light to the Gentiles: Rom 15:9-12 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. (10) And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (11) And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (12) And again, Isaiah saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Henaynei explained the "grafting in".

I think about what is written in Ruth 1:16-17
Rth 1:16-17 And Ruth said, Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: (17) Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if aught but death part thee and me.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm staying out of any discussions, as it certainly is not my place here.

But I have a question, and figured here is the best place to ask, and I'll get sincere answers.

When a messianic sees an observant Jew or community of Jews, what do they see? Do they see a person or people about whom they can say something like, "cool, those people are living out their beliefs, worshipping Hashem, etc" and then just leave them alone to go about their business? Or do they see them as targets? As a person or people whom they must evangelize? I think there is more I'm trying to ask, but can't figure how to say it, so I'll leave it at this and hope you can understand me.

I don't mean offense, and I'm sorry if my jumbled wording implies such. I'm just curious and seek understanding.

Thank you.

I don't think that I have known an "observant Jew". However, where I use to work there were several non-observant and I saw them as God's chosen people. I did not try to evangelize but just in my everday living if the subject came up I would share what was happening in my congregation. At Christmas time in the office we could decorate and the last couple of years instead of decorating for Christmas I decorated for Hannukah. I think they they did not know what to think about me...a non Jew celebrating their holiday. Yet they would always come to my desk to look at everything. One even asked me for a copy of the Hannukah prayer..she remembered it from her childhood. I got more negative reactions though from the Christians around me than I did the Jews.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I so love the stories I've read from everyone in here

 

[ChavaK]

grafted in means becoming a part of the Commonwealth of Israel, but it does not mean becoming a Jew

those who serve HaShem, natural or grafted in, share the common root of faith, the One True G-d. We share a common source of spiritual life and sustenance. But because one is serving and obeying HaShem does not mean they necessarily are Jewish.

This has always been so from before Sinai. A "foreigner" could become part of the Jewish community - when they chose to obey the laws. But they were G-dfearers, like Cornelius (see Acts 10). They could bring sacrifices to the Temple (Court of the Gentiles) and the Priests would accept their sacrifices. But they were not Jews

these are aka Ger Toshav or Ger Tsadik

There is a difference between these two. A Ger Toshav is a resident alien, a non-Jew who lives amongst Jews.
A Ger Tzaddik is a full convert to Judaism, and is a Jew.