Open discussion on Pagan/Occult video games

[Psalms34]

Ever hear of or play World of Warcraft? EverQuest, Ultima, Elder Scrolls or Dungeons and Dragons Online? …just to name a few.

Some hotly contest holding that these have no link to the Occult, that they are completely harmless to play with. Yet others explicitly stick to the opinion that these games are terribly wrong, that people should have nothing to do with them due to the blatant Occult content. The debates rage, and at times get personal against one another rather than focusing on the games and what they represent, alone. Maybe light shown in the darkness can do such a thing, it’s a frightening thing to realize you are playing with something you should have nothing to do with at all, as I have experienced myself as well with the realization that it is wrong.

Here is a really well written report by a former Occult member, he was a temple master in the Occult Order that Aleister Crowley formed, and explains quite well the dangers of these games. This is one of those links that may deserve a solid bookmark in ones browser.
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/occult-rpg.htm

So what do you think of the article, or these games in general? I’d like to hear examples of your personal experiences with the games or with people that play these games. Where do you think it is all headed? Where are we at now? I certainly see more realism being added to these Occult simulators as technology improves. I used to play these games years ago, but one day I got my spanking, or a wake up call that is. Ever go through that? What once seemed like harmless fun, something that was so pixilated and shallow on a screen that it seemed to nearly make no sense, yet realism generated by the power of today’s systems are definitely changing that from what I see.

 

[Nadiine]

Coming from someone who played demonic games - by that I mean games that involved sorcery in them or seances I had to participate in, or build temples to other gods, etc., I won't TOUCH them again.

By the time you find out they're harmful, it's usually late & it's been affecting you & you didn't know it the whole time.

People can and will do whatever they want, but I learned the hard way & I don't need the lesson 2 times to get the message.

As far as HOW people get affected, that's all different and maybe some people don't get affected as harshly as others for whatever reasons. All experiences aren't the same. What I do know is I've seen and heard enough to know that quite a few people DO get seriously harmed spiritually when playing these games. The issue becomes the risk one takes when they reject warnings from others.
We don't know if we'll be one of the ones affected negatively or not.

I think there's plenty of games to play other than that stuff; namely for Christians.
Whatever happened to good ol' violence? LOL

 

[Psalms34]

Really? Which ones did you play around with?

I think the two main ones I was involved with was first Ultima Online for five years and then EverQuest for five years. I played both at the same time for a few years. I've played many other ones but those were my main two. Ultima of course is very humanistic/hedonistic, it's the designers point of view and as he said he added to the game play. EQ is more of a straight D&D to some degree, where you pick gods and call upon the various powers through them. It gets more specific to actual references to pagan ideas and rituals.

I quit playing those some years ago, before WoW was released so I didn't get into that other than researching what it is about. I remember one of my breaking points before I quit those games, I was in the Super Market and had a desire or wish to draw upon the power of the nether and cast a flaming tard at someone, it felt reactionary from conditioning.

What's interesting, I learned more about Occult practices playing those games compared to any previous study about it. I mean, ok you have the basic illusions of casting and such, and they inject an amount of other references from where this power is suppose to come from and all. It all seems harmless, sorta, then you really start to pick up on the game, liking the game so much you want to learn the lore and pick up on the story better so you can half-way carry an edge in a role-play situation when hanging out with friends or participating in events. Much of this lore they provide is subtly infused with many occult references that when you read or hear something about the Occult, it's not such a bid deal any longer, you are used to it and have already had lots of fun playing simulations of being in an Occult world.

And it's interesting on just how many people I've met that actually participate in pagan practices that play these games. I was in an EQ guild, one of the co-leaders was a practicing wiccan. She had some of her rl friends in the guild and they used to go around promoting the wiccan religion to those they met. They had their own online coven as well as the one they participated in at their neighborhood.

I still play RPG's (mainly mmorpg's) but I'm just more selective with what I play.

 

[Kelly]

When you play cops and robbers, you aren't actually being criminals when you play the robbers. Tabletop/Pen and Paper RPGs, along with videogames, you aren't actually casting spells, you're clicking a button, or declaring the name of the spell you cast.

If your GM has you performing seances or building temples in real life, it's 100% beyond the scope of the game and has nothing to do with it.

 

[Nadiine]

When you play cops and robbers, you aren't actually being criminals when you play the robbers. Tabletop/Pen and Paper RPGs, along with videogames, you aren't actually casting spells, you're clicking a button, or declaring the name of the spell you cast.

If your GM has you performing seances or building temples in real life, it's 100% beyond the scope of the game and has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that sounds lovely, I can't help that the stuff in the spirit realms don't always work the way they seem they should.

I don't know who made the game and what was authentic and what wasn't. When you read spiritual warfare books, they explain some of this & that while something is 'fantasy', there's still a spiritual plane in which we're participating in Satan's territory for our entertainment.

All I can say is, IF you were completely correct, we wouldn't have SO many people who swear to having spiritual issues after playing this. It isn't just their imaginations and it wasn't just my imagination that led me to my spiritual crisis when playing all these things Innocently.

People don't just come up with this stuff out of the blue if there isn't something going on with it somehow. That's my main point here; whether or not we fully understand it or not.
I don't know why people seem to die in groups of 3's either - it just seems to work that way for some odd reason in many instances; enough to where it's become a notable issue.

 

[Nadiine]

Really? Which ones did you play around with?

I played alot of the Sierra Role Play games that I got in the early 90's. I had the game Shivers which was capturing spirits in some abandoned museum overnite, I had the Gabriel Knight series - one of them was The Beast Within & the other was one with alot of VooDoo in it & some ritual at a bonfire... a sacrifice of some sort... I did have the first Warcraft game too and I had a couple others ... I think it was Phantasmagoria - I do remember a fortune telling machine in it... I had another Clue game that I had to participate in a Seance... & I did have a boyfriend that took me to some dungeons & dragons game being played in his friend's basement.
One other one I had was using magic as a Mage - I just remember underground tunnels & rooms & stuff.
I just don't remember the name of it.


It was mainly computer role play stuff. I didn't believe it when people warned me about this stuff either - it wasn't till later on that I agreed & burned all of it GLADLY.

 

[HypnoToad]

For one, it probably depends on the game. I've played (and still do) Diablo II, Guild Wars, and D&D Online. The players in those games don't build any temples, there's really no actual worship or praying to gods. Yes, there are gods mentioned in the folklore throughout the game, but the players don't have to actually worship them or anything. In Diablo II, in fact, your goal is to kill demons - including Baal.

The second factor is the player. Most mature, emotionally stable people should not be affected in the negative ways mentioned. I've played them for years, and I know they're imaginary, and I have absolutely no desire to obtain any kind of magic or powers or whatever in my real life. I don't want to cast fireballs on people in line ahead of me at the bank. I don't feel the need to call upon some god for power when someone cuts me off in traffic. I have a clear understanding of the difference between a computer game and reality, and I have no temptation to try and mix them somehow.

 

[Nadiine]

I know a man that within the last year of him playing Warcraft online, his Christian marriage completely fell apart, he lost all motivation to go to work, lost his job & is now divorced & living in another state right after playing sorcery games.
He also lied & asked my mother to help him pay one of his electric bills during that time & instead, he bought another year's membership to Blizzard, the game company with it. (some $75.00).

He dropped out of church & the praise band he was playing guitar with & totally went backslidden. He was just fine prior to playing this game.

So again, as I mentioned, the issue becomes who it harms & other factors. I would of never thought I'd be a spiritual casualty either, but I was.

My entire point is, that people shouldn't just mock people like me who have seen or experienced the devestation after them. There IS something to it, otherwise you wouldn't have this many people attesting to it when they didn't believe it when they were told about it.

I forgot to mention Doom - we had that on SuperNintendo back in the ancient days lol. I LOVED that game. mega fun. Would I own it now even if I had a Playstation or Xbox? I highly doubt it.

But I don't think you can have a game (a good one anyways) without some sort of violence or "evil" involved w/ it persey. ie. murder or theft, etc.

 

[HypnoToad]

My entire point is, that people shouldn't just mock people like me ...

I don't think anyone is "mocking" anyone.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't think anyone is "mocking" anyone.

I wasn't saying anyone here was. It does happen tho.

 

[dies-l]

I don't really have an issue with the "occult themes" in the games that are out there. Like another poster stated, I don't believe that RPGs are no more likely to make a person turn to the occult than a childhood game of cops and robbers is likely to induce a person to become a career criminal.

But, one thing that is not often talked about with these games is the sheer amount of productive time that is lost to them. Most of the people that I have known who really seem to enjoy RPG style games will spend almost every moment of their free time playing them. When a person becomes so obsessed with anything, whether it be drugs, alcohol, television, or video games, that the object of their obsession becomes a viable substitute for meaningful human relationships, then that is dangerous, imho. And, when that person is a Christian, that person is really rendered unable to live out the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. So, I suppose my bigger concern with certain video games is that they seem, more than many forms of entertainment, to have a potential to become a sort of "addiction" (for lack of a better word) for many people.

 

[Kelly]

Time wasting and addiction are serious issues for lots of different activities. I'm not going to argue with that. A healthy balance of hobbies vs. the rest of your life is a must. This includes TV, sports, gaming. you name it.

I quit playing online FPS games for one reason, it took too much of my attention away from my family. The competative nature made me irratable and grumpy when 'interrupted' by my son or daughter. I am 3-4 years 'clean' in that regard.

My table top RPG and miniatures gaming is one saturday a month, all day geek fest.

 

[Psalms34]

My entire point is, that people shouldn't just mock people like me who have seen or experienced the devestation after them. There IS something to it, otherwise you wouldn't have this many people attesting to it when they didn't believe it when they were told about it.

There is, there really is. Go to like mmorpg.com and look at the games list, notice the overwhelming amount of themes for high fantasy which contain all this stuff, like 10 to 1, do you think that is coincidence? You see, these game developers make their choices on the game theme to develop based upon the popularity of a particular theme and the addictiveness to playing that theme, their not in the business to loose money. These occult similator type games have a definite spiritual pull to them. There are a few people here and there that get addicted to the other themes, they spend a little too much time playing them, but the majority of cases, especially the horror cases, are with games that are into the high fantasy genre.

I mean come on, do we fight against flesh and blood? No, it's a spiritual battle! Any of that dark stuff does have a draw to it. People don't think it really effects them, but how many of those play high fantasy and get to a point they realized it was eating too much time? Well... that is one of the effecting elements to playing these games loaded with occult content. Then I usually hear the flesh and blood excuse, that it's "not real", but they are overlooking the spiritual, which is far more definitive of occult practices.

 

[Nadiine]

There is, there really is. Go to like mmorpg.com and look at the games list, notice the overwhelming amount of themes for high fantasy which contain all this stuff, like 10 to 1, do you think that is coincidence? You see, these game developers make their choices on the game theme to develop based upon the popularity of a particular theme and the addictiveness to playing that theme, their not in the business to loose money. These occult similator type games have a definite spiritual pull to them. There are a few people here and there that get addicted to the other themes, they spend a little too much time playing them, but the majority of cases, especially the horror cases, are with games that are into the high fantasy genre.

I mean come on, do we fight against flesh and blood? No, it's a spiritual battle! Any of that dark stuff does have a draw to it. People don't think it really effects them, but how many of those play high fantasy and get to a point they realized it was eating too much time? Well... that is one of the effecting elements to playing these games loaded with occult content. Then I usually hear the flesh and blood excuse, that it's "not real", but they are overlooking the spiritual, which is far more definitive of occult practices.

Yes, people in spiritual warfare are basically saying that what we call 'fantasy', is actually participating in what's occult in the spiritual planes - that they don't view it as just "harmless fun", but that it's literally doing occult activity even tho it isn't with real intent by the person playing.
I can't prove that's the case, but again, all the people in trouble w/ this stuff spiritually can't just be a coincidence.
What's hard to explain is the results & why some seem to have things that go so wrong so quickly, some that don't seem to have any immediate or sometimes long term effects, etc.

I can't explain it all other than to say there's something going on w/ it with at least some or many people.
I guess it could be safe to put it this way, IF someone eventually starts experiencing spiritual trouble of some sort, it's an avenue that shouldn't be overlooked or ignored.

This may be better asked in the spiritual warfare section of this site with people who keep up more on this sort of thing.
They might have some more specific input on it.

 

[Telrunya]

Well I've done some studying into Spiritual Warfare. The thing that I think is getting missed here is that Spiritual Warfare is going on within us, around us constantly. It's in the ads you look at in a magazine or watch on TV. It's in the movies you watch and on the billboards as you drive down your street.

I play World of Warcraft as does my wife. Yes we've had rocky points in our relationship, but in retrospect they weren't attributable to the game, but would have happened even if we hadn't played. For my part I witness to people I play with. I belong to a Christian "Guild" or alliance of players, and while we dont confront people about our faith we declare it openly and speak to any who ask, which is suprisingly alot. We are told to be in the world but not of the world. If we sequester ourselves and live our lives with only Christian things then we aren't making contact with the lost. For me the game mechanics of casting a spell or shooting a bow are irrelevant. I am not engaging in sorcery or trying to call on the power of the enemy. I have the strongest ally there is and if I want help to do something I ask for His help from my knees, not a video game.

Addiction is also something that is often confused with the occult influencing lives in this respect. Adiction is addiction. Wether it be work, alcohol, sex, drugs, or submerging yourself in a fantasy life. All of these are drives towards escapism. Addicts have proven to be addicts. If they cannot be addicted to one thing they will find another. Smokers are an easy anaolgy. Ronald Reagan was famous for having a jar of jelly beans on his desk. He popped them constanly. That is what he substituted for his smoking addiction. Now is the addictive nature of an individual a response to spiritual warfare? I can't say. I dont think playing a video game such as world of warcraft is going to make someone who is non addictive by nature suseptable to being addicted though.

 

[Quoth]

World of Warcraft is not Pagan/Occult. It is a science fiction/fantasy game, akin to Lord of the Rings. The similarities are so near to one another that one Paladin joke is to create a spoof of The Lord of the Rings based on World of Warcraft.

Yes, World of Warcraft involves magic, but then again, so do Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings, and even some stories in the Bible contain elements of events beyond scientific explanation. Fire coming from the sky to consume a soaked altar comes to mind. The magic in World of Warcraft is at the hands of the user, who can use magic for good or evil. In the case of a Human Paladin, the source of any magic comes from The Light. The Light is a euphemism for a deity, but the closest the Light comes to being worshipped is having The Chapel of Light in Stormwind, wherein there is very little to suggest a religious building.

Yes, World of Warcraft has demons, priests, wizards, warlocks, mages, and undead. If the fact that a game contains these optional elements and yet remains neutral in supporting them is a sin, then living life is a sin, because life contains crack cocaine, LSD, rape, murder, and armed robbery (but it remains neutral to them). The fact that World of Warcraft contains these things does not mean that one must participate in these things. It's an MMORPG, which means that there's a lot of options. I have a level 10 Priest as an alternative character. He has taken a vow of poverty (I give all the money he makes to my Paladin), a vow of celibacy (he will not 'whistle' at another player whose character may be scantily clad), and a vow of pacifism-until-impractical (meaning flight before fight).

Those who denounce World of Warcraft, in my experience, usually have not played the game at any length of time.

Now if you want to talk about games like Diablo or Torment, then I'll agree with you. But not World of Warcraft.

 

[Nadiine]

Blackfyre, I know where you're going with your correlations & if there's "evil" in the game, it's then equivalent to real life & we're all "sinning", yadda yadda.

That isn't the same as participating in using the occult in fantasy. & if you want to get technical, I'm not in agreement with LOTR as being "Ok" either. They have a "good wizard" who fights a 'bad wizard".... that's a problem when God says ALL sorcery is evil & comes from the same source: Satan.
What about the elven magic in it? I'm NOT against fantasy... & that's not my point here. But we should point out facts according to God's truth at least.

But I'm not "actively participating" in Satan's realm/territory just becuz evil is all around me or I watch tv shows that have some adult or evil content in them.

The issue is actively using Occultism - the sorcery, the rituals or even symbols in them.
If God forbids it, calls it abomination, tells us not to touch what is evil & claims that if anyone uses this without repentance that they're condemned eternally, then why are we using it for our entertainment as if it's all harmless if we "PLAY" with it?
Do you get where I'm going with this? Since when does sorcery become "fun" for playtime?

Imo, the main issue becomes desensitization of the occult especially for many younger people & namely nonChristians as if this stuff is "fun" when it's DANGEROUS in reality. This is how stuff gets accepted & seen as "harmless" over the years.
Look at how accepted witchcraft has become today in our youth! There's been an explosion in occult interest today thru all the entertainment we're fed - Xena, Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Harry Potter, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the Craft & other movies centered around witchcraft.

The world of Warcraft is just one more piece of entertainment in this realm that adds to the heap in my personal opinion.
Is it as "demonic" as other stuff? No it's not, but that doesn't necessarily make it harmless either.
I'm glad to see that you said this at the end of your post:

Now if you want to talk about games like Diablo or Torment, then I'll agree with you. But not World of Warcraft.

 

[jive4005]

Warning!

Occult, witchcraft and similar assorted evils are all too real.

God says stay away.

You enter these areas (over which you hold no protection or power) at your own risk... at the risk of your very soul... along with all the collateral damage that will result). Truth!

rev

occult: not to be confused with fantasy.

 

[Psalms34]

First I want to say, I am “judging” no one here, but pointing out a thing that is not right; that these games are laden with things we are not suppose to be involved with.

My table top RPG and miniatures gaming is one saturday a month, all day geek fest.

I’m sure I’ve mentioned it to you before, I’m not against table top gaming; in other words it’s not inheritably evil, just like I stand by video games not being all evil. As always, it is about content, what does the game portray in it; does it glorify Occult junk or is it neutral or Godly?

I used to play D&D as a teen. At first by the regular rules, but I could see it was making an impact on my friends, so I started creating my own rules and games. I used to love to DM, I had a gift for it, I guess that is why I like to work on game development now, it was my early experiences.

There are good game sets out there, though I don’t pay table top any longer, I do research them and I’ve seen some good ones without all that junk in them, including Christian games as well.

We are told to be in the world but not of the world.

I agree with that, but I don't think I agree with the usage of it. I don’t think that means to actually participate in things that the world is, doing them yourself, but to stand apart from it yet still in reach of giving them a better way. I mean, we do not need to become Mormons to witness to Mormons, do we? We don’t need to put on the sacred underwear and attend their temple to get through to them, do we? If we do the same things as they, what sets us apart from what they do?

What this means is don’t lock yourself in a convent and ignore the people in this world, be in society but don’t do the things that they do. Be the salt of the Earth, not a mixed substitute that does not retain it’s flavor.

Those who denounce World of Warcraft, in my experience, usually have not played the game at any length of time.

Now if you want to talk about games like Diablo or Torment, then I'll agree with you. But not World of Warcraft.

Actually WoW has quite a bit of info on the game at their website. You don’t need to play it to get the facts of what it is about. When Satan told Jesus to throw Himself off the mountain so the Angels would rescue Him, did Jesus say “okay-dokay” and jump? He only had to look down to see what could happen, He didn’t need to actually experience it. He said not to tempt, and that just holds so true. As far as I’m concerned about these games, it’s a free fall until we hit bottom, but hopefully God will rescue us before that end, though we should not tempt Him.

I’ve played around 50 different mmorpg’s, including some of the recent ones such as D&DO (demo) and LotRO (closed beta) but not for fun but with a developers eye for a couple weeks to glean ideas from. It’s the same from one such game to the next among those, nothing has changed since the beginning, and it’s the same as before video game RPG’s were even around. Nothing new under the sun.

That isn't the same as participating in using the occult in fantasy. & if you want to get technical, I'm not in agreement with LOTR as being "Ok" either.

I agree. There are a lot of problems with LOTR, problems I won’t get into here. At best it is gray, and being so much of what is today with the infusion of fantasy into Occult is based off of those gray areas he created. I actually was a bit interested in LotR Online, the developers said at first that they were not going to include player magic in the game. But after a lot of protest on their forums they made mages that function just like in most any other high fantasy game, I was disappointed.

occult: not to be confused with fantasy.

Fantasy is cool, it’s been around for a long time, even Pilgrims Progress has fantasy style elements. But the Pagans realized this as well, that fantasy is a good way to merge their ideas into and make it a strong selling point, and that is exactly what they did.

 

[Nadiine]

Fantasy is cool, it’s been around for a long time, even Pilgrims Progress has fantasy style elements. But the Pagans realized this as well, that fantasy is a good way to merge their ideas into and make it a strong selling point, and that is exactly what they did.

This is a strong point - games are fun and highly addicting if you let them be. Satan knows how to lure people into his traps & onto his territory & open them up.

Maybe one game won't "ruin" a person. But it CAN lead them down other trails later as they become more open to dabbling in things.
Again, what of the non Christian kids out there who are now much more open to occult things than they were prior to playing all this stuff?

Our culture is saturated w/ the occult anymore & this is how Satan has made inroads. & how SILLY does it look when Christians denounce paganism & witchcraft when it's all made to be so fun & kool with awesome characters?
It makes us look like idiots who are out of touch with reality. Satan is glamorized and we look silly in warning people of the occult in general terms.