Open AI, and John 14, on Free Will

[FutureAndAHope]

The following was written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will.

John 14:21-24

The Bible teaches that human beings possess free will and are capable of making choices that affect their eternal destiny. John 14:21-24 is a powerful passage that supports this idea and shows that predestination's idea of God forcing salvation is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

In John 14:21, Jesus says, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." This passage indicates that our love for Jesus is connected to our obedience to His commandments. We have the ability to choose to love Jesus and obey His commands, or to reject Him and disobey.

Furthermore, in John 14:23, Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." This passage reinforces the idea that our love for Jesus is a choice we make, and that our obedience to His commands is the result of that choice. God does not force us to love Him or obey Him, but rather invites us into a loving relationship with Himself.

Finally, in John 14:24, Jesus says, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." This passage emphasizes the importance of obedience to God's commands as a sign of our love for Jesus. We cannot claim to love Jesus and at the same time disobey His commands.

Taken together, these three verses provide a powerful argument for free will and against the idea of predestination. God invites us into a loving relationship with Himself, but it is up to us to respond to that invitation. We have the ability to choose to love and obey Him or to reject Him, and our eternal destiny depends on that choice.

In contrast, the idea of predestination teaches that God has already chosen some people for salvation and others for damnation, regardless of their choices or actions. This idea is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus, who emphasizes the importance of our choices and obedience to His commands as a sign of our love for Him.

Therefore, the biblical teaching of free will provides a compelling argument for the importance of our choices and actions in determining our eternal destiny. We are not mere puppets or robots, but rather free agents with the ability to choose to love and obey God or to reject Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The following was written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will.

John 14:21-24

The Bible teaches that human beings possess free will and are capable of making choices that affect their eternal destiny. John 14:21-24 is a powerful passage that supports this idea and shows that predestination's idea of God forcing salvation is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

In John 14:21, Jesus says, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." This passage indicates that our love for Jesus is connected to our obedience to His commandments. We have the ability to choose to love Jesus and obey His commands, or to reject Him and disobey.

Furthermore, in John 14:23, Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." This passage reinforces the idea that our love for Jesus is a choice we make, and that our obedience to His commands is the result of that choice. God does not force us to love Him or obey Him, but rather invites us into a loving relationship with Himself.

Finally, in John 14:24, Jesus says, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." This passage emphasizes the importance of obedience to God's commands as a sign of our love for Jesus. We cannot claim to love Jesus and at the same time disobey His commands.

Taken together, these three verses provide a powerful argument for free will and against the idea of predestination. God invites us into a loving relationship with Himself, but it is up to us to respond to that invitation. We have the ability to choose to love and obey Him or to reject Him, and our eternal destiny depends on that choice.

In contrast, the idea of predestination teaches that God has already chosen some people for salvation and others for damnation, regardless of their choices or actions. This idea is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus, who emphasizes the importance of our choices and obedience to His commands as a sign of our love for Him.

Therefore, the biblical teaching of free will provides a compelling argument for the importance of our choices and actions in determining our eternal destiny. We are not mere puppets or robots, but rather free agents with the ability to choose to love and obey God or to reject Him.

That doesn't sound like AI, but regardless, the machine can only produce what it is taught. The notion that what is said there is purely logical depends entirely on the notion that the information that is fed it is altogether perfect and complete.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That doesn't sound like AI, but regardless, the machine can only produce what it is taught. The notion that what is said there is purely logical depends entirely on the notion that the information that is fed it is altogether perfect and complete.

From what I was told it was given access to the complete internet up to the year 2021.

 

[sawdust]

The following was written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will.

John 14:21-24

The Bible teaches that human beings possess free will and are capable of making choices that affect their eternal destiny. John 14:21-24 is a powerful passage that supports this idea and shows that predestination's idea of God forcing salvation is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

In John 14:21, Jesus says, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." This passage indicates that our love for Jesus is connected to our obedience to His commandments. We have the ability to choose to love Jesus and obey His commands, or to reject Him and disobey.

Furthermore, in John 14:23, Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." This passage reinforces the idea that our love for Jesus is a choice we make, and that our obedience to His commands is the result of that choice. God does not force us to love Him or obey Him, but rather invites us into a loving relationship with Himself.

Finally, in John 14:24, Jesus says, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." This passage emphasizes the importance of obedience to God's commands as a sign of our love for Jesus. We cannot claim to love Jesus and at the same time disobey His commands.

Taken together, these three verses provide a powerful argument for free will and against the idea of predestination. God invites us into a loving relationship with Himself, but it is up to us to respond to that invitation. We have the ability to choose to love and obey Him or to reject Him, and our eternal destiny depends on that choice.

In contrast, the idea of predestination teaches that God has already chosen some people for salvation and others for damnation, regardless of their choices or actions. This idea is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus, who emphasizes the importance of our choices and obedience to His commands as a sign of our love for Him.

Therefore, the biblical teaching of free will provides a compelling argument for the importance of our choices and actions in determining our eternal destiny. We are not mere puppets or robots, but rather free agents with the ability to choose to love and obey God or to reject Him.

I think to be fair it should also be asked to give a response against free will as well on the same passage.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think to be fair it should also be asked to give a response against free will as well on the same passage.

Me: could you give me an argument against free will using John 14:21-24 an argument in support of predestination



Open AI: It is not possible to provide an argument against free will using John 14:21-24, as the passage clearly supports the idea that humans have a choice to follow God's commandments and love Him or not. However, some may argue that the concept of predestination is supported by other passages in the Bible, such as:

• Ephesians 1:4-5: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."
• Romans 8:29-30: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

These passages suggest that God has chosen and predestined some people to be saved before the foundation of the world, and that their salvation is certain. Those who support predestination argue that this is a demonstration of God's sovereignty and power, and that it is a necessary aspect of His divine plan.

However, it is important to note that these passages do not necessarily negate the idea of free will. They describe God's foreknowledge and predestination, but do not necessarily indicate that humans have no choice in the matter. In fact, other passages in the Bible suggest that humans do have free will and are responsible for their choices and actions (e.g., Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Galatians 6:7).
Ultimately, the debate between predestination and free will is a complex and nuanced one, and there are valid arguments on both sides. However, John 14:21-24 clearly supports the idea of free will and the importance of obedience to God's commandments as a factor in one's relationship with Him.

 

[sawdust]

Me: could you give me an argument against free will using John 14:21-24 an argument in support of predestination



Open AI: It is not possible to provide an argument against free will using John 14:21-24, as the passage clearly supports the idea that humans have a choice to follow God's commandments and love Him or not. However, some may argue that the concept of predestination is supported by other passages in the Bible, such as:

• Ephesians 1:4-5: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."
• Romans 8:29-30: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

These passages suggest that God has chosen and predestined some people to be saved before the foundation of the world, and that their salvation is certain. Those who support predestination argue that this is a demonstration of God's sovereignty and power, and that it is a necessary aspect of His divine plan.

However, it is important to note that these passages do not necessarily negate the idea of free will. They describe God's foreknowledge and predestination, but do not necessarily indicate that humans have no choice in the matter. In fact, other passages in the Bible suggest that humans do have free will and are responsible for their choices and actions (e.g., Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Galatians 6:7).
Ultimately, the debate between predestination and free will is a complex and nuanced one, and there are valid arguments on both sides. However, John 14:21-24 clearly supports the idea of free will and the importance of obedience to God's commandments as a factor in one's relationship with Him.

Thanks for doing that. Interesting. I don't support predestination as being "predestined for salvation" but rather "predestined into Christ". Not all believers were destined to be in Christ so I don't see free will and predestination in opposition to one another anyway as many do.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thanks for doing that. Interesting. I don't support predestination as being "predestined for salvation" but rather "predestined into Christ". Not all believers were destined to be in Christ so I don't see free will and predestination in opposition to one another anyway as many do.

Could you explain this idea a little more, I am not 100% sure what you mean.

As for the scripture about foreknowledge, if you investigate the writings of the Early Church you will see it does not to them mean "predestined for salvation":

If we look at the scripture:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Then investigating the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), we see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the words usage are used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

So it makes more sense to interpret Romans 8 as follows:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

 

[sawdust]

Could you explain this idea a little more, I am not 100% sure what you mean.

As for the scripture about foreknowledge, if you investigate the writings of the Early Church you will see it does not to them mean "predestined for salvation":

If we look at the scripture:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Then investigating the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), we see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the words usage are used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

Those whom God foreknew are believers. It is not God foreknowing who would believe or not. That knowledge comes from His omniscience. Let me go to the beginning and explain as I understand it.

God is omniscient, knowing all things. He isn't simply knowing all things in regard to you for this life and all the options before you and the different paths you could have taken, He is also knowing everything about you if you were put in the Garden, placed in Noah's or Abraham's day, or if you were in the 13th, 15th or 23rd (if we have one) century. Any life you could have lived at any point of time with every decision you could make. He knows from this knowledge (omniscience) whether you choose to believe in Him or not. It is at this point He separates the believer from the unbeliever (in His mind) and has to make a decision what to do with the believers. This is where His foreknowledge kicks in. Compare this verse and see how foreknowledge does not apply to unbelievers.

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Foreknowledge is God knowing you (as a believer) beforehand and using that knowledge He decides which is the best place to put you that suits His overall plan which is to avenge His name for Lucifer brought it into disrepute. Adam He destined to be in the Garden. Noah he destined to be in the Ark. Moses was destined to lead Israel. Israel destined to be in the Land. You and I destined to be in Christ ie. His body. Others will be destined to be in the Millennium.

So free will has no bearing on predestination. You don't get to choose when and where you are born. You do get to choose, once you have that life, how you will come to God and live your life for Him.

There is, in a sense, a predetermined value of salvation in the doctrine of foreknowledge, but not because God makes you believe but because it is only applied to believers and God has chosen to save believers.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Mark Quayle]

From what I was told it was given access to the complete internet up to the year 2021.

Notice also, what you said: "...written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will." That is not without bias.

 

[sawdust]

Notice also, what you said: "...written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will." That is not without bias.

That's why I asked for the opposite as well.

Nothing like opposing points of view to hone the little grey cells.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Notice also, what you said: "...written by Open AI. When asked to think over John 14, and give a response in favor of free will." That is not without bias.

Yes, but if you look at the posts above, you will see it was also asked to give a defense of predestination using John 14. The AI stated:

Open AI: It is not possible to provide an argument against free will using John 14:21-24, as the passage clearly supports the idea that humans have a choice to follow God's commandments and love Him or not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, but if you look at the posts above, you will see it was also asked to give a defense of predestination using John 14. The AI stated:

Open AI: It is not possible to provide an argument against free will using John 14:21-24, as the passage clearly supports the idea that humans have a choice to follow God's commandments and love Him or not.

Thus it already thinks predestination denies choice. That is false. It lacks quite a bit of information. My guess is it goes with preponderance of input.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's why I asked for the opposite as well.

Nothing like opposing points of view to hone the little grey cells.

Yep. That passage is not as particularly conducive to arguing predestination, but the stupid AI assumes, probably from 'preponderance of input' (haha), that predestination implies no choice. It is wrong.

 

[sawdust]

Yep. That passage is not as particularly conducive to arguing predestination, but the stupid AI assumes, probably from 'preponderance of input' (haha), that predestination implies no choice. It is wrong.

Where does the choice come into it?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Where does the choice come into it?

Where does choice come into what?
—The verse?
—The AI's argument concerning that verse?
—The Calvinist's reasoning concerning predestination?

 

[sawdust]

Where does choice come into what?
—The verse?
—The AI's argument concerning that verse?
—The Calvinist's reasoning concerning predestination?

Where does choice come into the doctrine of predestination? I guess that would be no.3 of your choices above.

I'm assuming we are referring to human choice in this discussion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Where does choice come into the doctrine of predestination? I guess that would be no.3 of your choices above.

I'm assuming we are referring to human choice in this discussion.

Ok. Choice is pretty much what everyone thinks it is. The problem is when they start to think it is entirely spontaneous —thinking that it comes only from within oneself, uncaused, and undetermined.

God is First Cause, and therefore absolutely everything else logically descends from him, one way or another. He knew, and created anyway. Therefore, caused. And with that creating, since everything else logically descends from him, it is determined by God's say-so.

 

[sawdust]

Ok. Choice is pretty much what everyone thinks it is. The problem is when they start to think it is entirely spontaneous —thinking that it comes only from within oneself, uncaused, and undetermined.

God is First Cause, and therefore absolutely everything else logically descends from him, one way or another. He knew, and created anyway. Therefore, caused. And with that creating, since everything else logically descends from him, it is determined by God's say-so.

I seem to recall we have had this "first cause" discussion before and I wasn't sure I understood your premise then but I might be a little closer to understanding this time round so let me try this.

I decide to give you a present. You can choose one of 3. There are no other options apart from what I present. You take option 3. I have caused you to take that option because I presented you with only those options. It would make no difference if you took 1 or 2 as I still am the one who created those options and no others therefore limiting you to your choice based on my choice.

Assuming I am at least half way understanding what you're saying, you assume God knew who would receive or reject Him as He created everyone but the Incarnation shows us God the Son can "divorce" (so to speak) Himself from His deity fully by becoming as a man so why not divorce Himself from His omniscience while he created everyone. Afterall, all things are created by, through and for the Son. This way He does not compromise our wills and truly allows us to make a choice without prejudice nor does He compromise His by creating that which He knows would end in evil.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I seem to recall we have had this "first cause" discussion before and I wasn't sure I understood your premise then but I might be a little closer to understanding this time round so let me try this.

I decide to give you a present. You can choose one of 3. There are no other options apart from what I present. You take option 3. I have caused you to take that option because I presented you with only those options. It would make no difference if you took 1 or 2 as I still am the one who created those options and no others therefore limiting you to your choice based on my choice.

Assuming I am at least half way understanding what you're saying, you assume God knew who would receive or reject Him as He created everyone but the Incarnation shows us God the Son can "divorce" (so to speak) Himself from His deity fully by becoming as a man so why not divorce Himself from His omniscience while he created everyone. After all, all things are created by, through and for the Son. This way He does not compromise our wills and truly allows us to make a choice without prejudice nor does He compromise His by creating that which He knows would end in evil.

Sounds a stretch of a construction. Also sounds like you want me to allow that God isn't particular which option one takes.

It's true enough that everything is caused if by the fact alone that God began absolutely everything, by being the only First Cause. But you want it to mean that he only set up the situation in which a person chooses, you are wrong. God didn't just set up the options, he caused everything —either directly or indirectly, he caused everything. That means he also caused your inclinations, your desires, your very thoughts. He MEANT for the wickedness of mankind to be a fact. He intended their rebellion, so that he could save those upon whom he chose to show mercy for HIS purposes, and their benefit. There is nothing random about it. There is nothing chosen by chance or randomness, nor utter spontaneity of the creature.

Logically, also, it can be shown that his initial causation —even if without any intervention by him along the way— causes every particular result and subsequent cause. Each "chain" of causation does not remain a discrete chain. They constantly interact and combine. And, of course, if he does intervene temporally, it doesn't change the fact that the chains constantly interact and combine. Nothing is truly random, no matter how chaotic it may seem.

 

[sawdust]

Sounds a stretch of a construction. Also sounds like you want me to allow that God isn't particular which option one takes.

It's true enough that everything is caused if by the fact alone that God began absolutely everything, by being the only First Cause. But you want it to mean that he only set up the situation in which a person chooses, you are wrong. God didn't just set up the options, he caused everything —either directly or indirectly, he caused everything. That means he also caused your inclinations, your desires, your very thoughts. He MEANT for the wickedness of mankind to be a fact. He intended their rebellion, so that he could save those upon whom he chose to show mercy for HIS purposes, and their benefit. There is nothing random about it. There is nothing chosen by chance or randomness, nor utter spontaneity of the creature.

Logically, also, it can be shown that his initial causation —even if without any intervention by him along the way— causes every particular result and subsequent cause. Each "chain" of causation does not remain a discrete chain. They constantly interact and combine. And, of course, if he does intervene temporally, it doesn't change the fact that the chains constantly interact and combine. Nothing is truly random, no matter how chaotic it may seem.

I don't want it to mean anything because I think your wrong. I was trying to understand your thinking. If I have misunderstood, I have misunderstood. I'm not trying to make it out to be something else. I agree nothing is random because the word of God is sovereign. If you choose darkness you reap darkness, if you choose light you reap light because this is what the Lord has declared.

Did He intend man's rebellion? I don't believe so. Did He plan for man's rebellion and use it for His purposes? Absolutely.

You have made God the origin of evil and like I said before, I think you are wrong. If God caused my thoughts, desires etc, He cannot judge me for He is responsible.

God has created a binary universe with it's heads/tails, yes/no systems. It was necessary in order to have the diversity we see. The moment He created a creature with volition He opened the way for the potential of evil to emerge but if He didn't, then neither could good emerge.