Open AI, and John 14, on Free Will

[Mark Quayle]

Did He intend man's rebellion? I don't believe so. Did He plan for man's rebellion and use it for His purposes? Absolutely.

If he knew about it ahead, (and pretty much all believers say he is omniscient), but created anyway, he intended it by creating. That doesn't mean it it was his main intention in creating, but it was intended anyway that it come to be.

To give you some idea what I mean, I say he intended the non-elect to go to hell, but only as a way to produce the precise specifications for the members of the Dwelling Place of God, etc. By cold logic, he predetermined the salvation of the Elect, and predetermined the damnation of the non-elect. I avoid using the word, "predetermined", concerning their damnation because too many people take that to mean that it was his primary use of them. It is not.

Note that Joseph uses the word "intended" twice —that his brothers had intended evil, but God intended that same evil for good.

You have made God the origin of evil and like I said before, I think you are wrong. If God caused my thoughts, desires etc, He cannot judge me for He is responsible.

Not quite. Evil as in sin? —never. Sin is the privation of good. But God did cause that there be sin, thus: He created knowing it would come —therefore, intended that it come. "Evil" is a strange word, not quite the same thing as sin. Where it means sin, it should be treated in every doctrine as sin is to be treated. But we have some strange passages concerning that. Remember an "evil spirit from the Lord" tormented King Saul (1 Sam 16:14). We have God inducing a foreign king to take Israel captive, and then punishing him for doing so —even specifically for glorifying himself instead of God for his success in doing so —all this foretold! This wasn't God flying by the seat of his pants. He intended every bit of what happened, to happen. Do you remember his 'hiring' a deceiving spirit to induce Ahab to attach the enemy? God even told the lying spirit to go and do it. Even encouraged it, that it would be successful. (This is a hilarious, story, by the way —1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18)

God has created a binary universe with it's heads/tails, yes/no systems. It was necessary in order to have the diversity we see. The moment He created a creature with volition He opened the way for the potential of evil to emerge but if He didn't, then neither could good emerge.

Does he not control the head/tails? Proverbs 16:33
Is he not the truth? John 14:6
There is no dualism, except in our minds.

And nothing can happen by chance.

 

[sawdust]

If he knew about it ahead, (and pretty much all believers say he is omniscient), but created anyway, he intended it by creating. That doesn't mean it it was his main intention in creating, but it was intended anyway that it come to be.

Didn't you read what I said about how the Incarnation tells us He can separate Himself from His Deity? To say He knew before He created those with free will may not be true. Indeed, it would explain how it is possible He could create those whom would reject Him utterly without being knowingly responsible for their rejection.

I disagree with your understanding of predestination. I understand predestination is what God is choosing to do with believers NOT God choosing who to save and who not to save. It is based on His foreknowledge, not His omniscience and is therefore only applicable to believers. (cmp. Matthew 7:23)

I disagree He intended everything to happen but He did arrange everything according to His plan to bring forth the perfect eternal state ultimately.

Just because God controls everything doesn't necessarily mean He caused everything. It's not a question of dualism. It's a matter of the universe being binary in order for the depth of variety we see. From the same binary code you can make a program that allows people on the opposite sides of the Globe to talk with one another in real time. From the same binary code you can make a virus that can devastate the world. It all depends on how you choose to operate. Each bit (yes/no) can be put together to build, not only complex systems, but systems of ever increasing variety.

Nothing can happen by chance because it is coded to behave the way it does. It is when volition goes against the "code as intended" (God's will) that evil (virus) is brought forth.

 

[FaithFamilyFreedom]

this may be inappropriate for this particular thread, but I've ALWAYS felt un-saveable. I've prayed a thousand times. my best and (really) only friends are within the church. grew up attending. still attend. faithful tithes. but I am 100 percent ineffective. wholly blessed but ineffective. plagued with various addiction tendencies. constantly tortured by past decisions. i pray for patience only to find myself cursing at the top of my lungs in traffic 10 minutes later. I have been unable to sustain a regular Bible study in spite of my pleas to Jesus to bring me closer. change my MIND. I feel like my heart is right. Anyhow... I've always wondered about predisposition in this context. Could one possibly be predisposed as an unbeliever but want and pray and plead to become a fully obedient child of God?

I have always felt like I've been stuck in a cruel loop of wanting the spirit so I can overcome and obey, but not having the spirit because I continually fail to obey. if I had to put it succinctly... I feel like I want nothing more than to run the race, but Jesus holds the keys to my legs and he won't let them loose.

 

[sawdust]

this may be inappropriate for this particular thread, but I've ALWAYS felt un-saveable. I've prayed a thousand times. my best and (really) only friends are within the church. grew up attending. still attend. faithful tithes. but I am 100 percent ineffective. wholly blessed but ineffective. plagued with various addiction tendencies. constantly tortured by past decisions. i pray for patience only to find myself cursing at the top of my lungs in traffic 10 minutes later. I have been unable to sustain a regular Bible study in spite of my pleas to Jesus to bring me closer. change my MIND. I feel like my heart is right. Anyhow... I've always wondered about predisposition in this context. Could one possibly be predisposed as an unbeliever but want and pray and plead to become a fully obedient child of God?

I have always felt like I've been stuck in a cruel loop of wanting the spirit so I can overcome and obey, but not having the spirit because I continually fail to obey. if I had to put it succinctly... I feel like I want nothing more than to run the race, but Jesus holds the keys to my legs and he won't let them loose.

The Christian walk is not about how you feel, it's about how you think. The Lord does His best work with our weaknesses if we are willing to be vulnerable. Don't neglect your diet and lifestyle either as they can have a large impact on your mental attitude. There have been times in my life simply taking some vitamin B supplements made a dramatic difference to my energy levels and mental well being.

You don't pray and plead to be obedient. You learn obedience through enduring the Lord's discipline just as Jesus did.

Hebrews 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Assuming you are not suffering from some unknown physical deficiency/disorder that might be impacting your ability to think, it's just a matter of doing the word whether you feel like it or not.

James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

The Spirit doesn't work in a vacuum. He takes the things of Christ (Christ is the word) and uses that to transform your thinking. God tells us to repent (change our mind) and believe. You don't change your mind by praying to God to do it to you. If you don't know the word, the Spirit has nothing to work with. Faith comes from the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you want to run the race, it will cost you everything you've got. How far you get depends more on how much the truth is worth to you for there is nothing impossible for God. He won't hold you back from reaching the full stature of Christ as that is His will for your life.

 

[Quasiblogo]

Why do I think of Ai and AI as being synonymous?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If he knew about it ahead, (and pretty much all believers say he is omniscient), but created anyway, he intended it by creating. That doesn't mean it it was his main intention in creating, but it was intended anyway that it come to be.

To give you some idea what I mean, I say he intended the non-elect to go to hell, but only as a way to produce the precise specifications for the members of the Dwelling Place of God, etc. By cold logic, he predetermined the salvation of the Elect, and predetermined the damnation of the non-elect. I avoid using the word, "predetermined", concerning their damnation because too many people take that to mean that it was his primary use of them. It is not.

Note that Joseph uses the word "intended" twice —that his brothers had intended evil, but God intended that same evil for good.

Not quite. Evil as in sin? —never. Sin is the privation of good. But God did cause that there be sin, thus: He created knowing it would come —therefore, intended that it come. "Evil" is a strange word, not quite the same thing as sin. Where it means sin, it should be treated in every doctrine as sin is to be treated. But we have some strange passages concerning that. Remember an "evil spirit from the Lord" tormented King Saul (1 Sam 16:14). We have God inducing a foreign king to take Israel captive, and then punishing him for doing so —even specifically for glorifying himself instead of God for his success in doing so —all this foretold! This wasn't God flying by the seat of his pants. He intended every bit of what happened, to happen. Do you remember his 'hiring' a deceiving spirit to induce Ahab to attach the enemy? God even told the lying spirit to go and do it. Even encouraged it, that it would be successful. (This is a hilarious, story, by the way —1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18)

Does he not control the head/tails? Proverbs 16:33
Is he not the truth? John 14:6
There is no dualism, except in our minds.

And nothing can happen by chance.

I agree that God knew sin would come, that is why the cross was planned before the creation of the world. But God has allowed man free will. This is why God could be shocked in Genesis at the behavior of man. Note also in the passage that God changed the age that people lived because He found they did not repent any better over larger lifespans. This shows us that God modifies His plan to the needs and situation.

Gen 6:3-7 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.".... Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

I fully believe God's plan is flexible, God knows a birth can occur through sin, but He does not plan it, for He can not be tempted to sin and tempts no one. He just has a plan in place for that life, if they are born. God can know the plan he has for each individual before creation, without actually knowing if they will exist or come into being. His love for each one is the same, for He is a just judge. Who judges according to our deeds.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

God is not partial to one person over another, He lays out who He is, what salvation is, and saves those who follow his ways. As the bible says over and over, He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.