Oops, so is it that we are not to debate or not post?

[Sophia7]

I'm sorry for the defensive comments, they really weren't aimed at you and I apologize that it seemed that way. I was basically snapping back from all the "newbie" comments I've been hearing lately. Again, I'm sorry. I'm in "defense" mode and I'll admit it right now. That's what happens when you are getting attacked a lot I guess.



I don't doubt for a second that people are beyond where I'm at in their walk....but Awesumtenor, what you said in the quote there...what does it say about the people that have been Adventist for..say...30 years, and are still happy with the doctrine?

It's hard to see past "well you don't really know anything yet because you're new." It's hard to see past that because 1) it's rude 2) it assumes a lot about me 3) it is a "I can't change your mind to my point of view so I'll just attack you personally" tactic.

I've seen/learned a lot in General Theology this week. Some good things, some bad things. It's been cemented for me that if someone cannot refute the scripture you give, they will attack your denomination. If they don't know your denomination they'll spend countless posts trying to GUESS it. If they can't guess your denomination, they'll attack your character.

Silly me, I broadcast my denomination icon so it's a quicker road for them just to go straight to my character!

So then I come here and I'm told I really don't know what I'm talking about because I'm new? Great. I don't even know why I bother sometimes.

Actually, that's not true, I do know why I bother. I bother because this week while being slammed against the wall repeatedly there were some bright spots. I met a really great person named Roger (Orthodox) and a Messianic that stole my heart with an awesome post, a Catholic that really is starting to question what he's grown up in and is reaching out for answers, and I got to know Woobadooba a lot better......in other words, in the pit of it all there are great people here that encourage others and really do let Christ shine through them. Thank God for the people that admit they're the least of the brethren and reach out to others!!!!

I hope that I touched at least one person this week. I don't know if I did and I probably won't find out until the resurrection, but hey....I'll keep trying.

Also, it wasn't a total loss because I did get complimented on my spelling.

I'm just going to have to spit out the bones from now on. I really can't allow stumblingblocks to keep up what they're doing. I can't, and I won't.

Trust,

I just wanted to tell you, from the point of view of a lifelong Adventist, that I admire your decision to leave the beliefs that you had been taught all your life after learning that they were not biblical. It seems a rare thing anymore for people to actually be willing to study the Bible without depending on all of their preconceived ideas to interpret it, if they even study it at all.

As my husband (Tall73) and I work in ministry, it can be discouraging because so many people don't even care about truth. One lady that we have been studying with at times and who comes to some of our meetings just for something to do tells me continually that she goes to another Christian church because she likes the music. That seems to be a common mindset; people go to church because they like the music or they have friends or family there or they have good kids' programs, but not because they have biblically sound doctrines.

I don't know from personal experience what it's like to be in the position of having people tell me that what I have been taught all my life is wrong (other than in the anti-Adventist GT threads, that is ). I myself was raised an Adventist although it was with a rather legalistic mindset. I didn't really know Jesus and become a Christian until I was 16, when I started reading the Bible for myself.

Anyway, I just wanted to tell you not to be discouraged because you are following where the Holy Spirit is leading you, and it doesn't matter whether you have been in the church for one year or 30 years; God uses you where you are.

I also think that you explained the Adventist position on the Sabbath quite well in the 10 commandments thread in GT that was recently closed. Unfortunately, we really can't get anywhere when there are people who are just there to bash Adventists and not really listen to anything we say.

God Bless,
Sophia7

 

[TrustAndObey]

Thank you Sophia! I really do appreciate your kind words sister!

I also think that you explained the Adventist position on the Sabbath quite well in the 10 commandments thread in GT that was recently closed. Unfortunately, we really can't get anywhere when there are people who are just there to bash Adventists and not really listen to anything we say.

I honestly thought I would reach some of those people by first getting them to admit what a Christian is, and then to admit that Mary fit that description. I've had people get downright angry with me when I even ask the question of whether or not she was Christian. I get "OF COURSE SHE WAS! SHE WAS THE FIRST CHRISTIAN!!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE VIRGIN MOTHER!"

But when I pointed out to them that Mary, as a Christian, kept the Sabbath commandment after Christ was nailed to the cross (disspelling their Col 2 argument), then suddenly they'd say "well of course she did, she was a JEW!"

Chicka bang....Jews can't become Christians? Poor Paul, I guess he died a Pharisee eh?

When I hear the word "Jew" I instantly think of someone that hasn't accepted Christ as the Messiah and their personal Savior. Am I alone on this? Once a Jew accepts Christ their new title should be CHRISTIAN! Amen?

One person told me that Jews and Christians have two separate sets of laws and always will. When I asked him if he was saying that a Jew wasn't "allowed" to ever become a Christian he said "of course they can." Then I asked him which "set" of his law categories they had to follow at that point, he ignored my question.

That really got me...when people didn't know the answer to something they would either 1) leave the discussion 2) attack my denomination and completely ignore the question or 3) bring in friends to jump on me.

I'll regroup and go back in there I'm sure. However, it was a little distressing to see people's avatars that only showed Mary with a big sun around her head. Some people have the pope. God help us all.

 

[awesumtenor]

I'm sorry for the defensive comments, they really weren't aimed at you and I apologize that it seemed that way. I was basically snapping back from all the "newbie" comments I've been hearing lately. Again, I'm sorry. I'm in "defense" mode and I'll admit it right now. That's what happens when you are getting attacked a lot I guess.

Noted.

I don't doubt for a second that people are beyond where I'm at in their walk....but Awesumtenor, what you said in the quote there...what does it say about the people that have been Adventist for..say...30 years, and are still happy with the doctrine?

That depends. I have been in this church nearly 20 years and I am still 'happy with the doctrine' and I have no reservations with teaching or preaching it... but I am not anywhere near where I was in 1988 when I first accepted this message. Not in my understanding of the doctrines of the church and not in my experience in the subculture of Adventism that is intertwined with the doctrines into one humongous Gordian knot and I submit that it is on issues that touch on the subculture of Adventism where one's "newness" leaves him at a decided disadvantage. There are aspects of the subculture of Adventism where you and I and everyone else who came to this church from something else as adults have not and will not experience and as such we are not and never will be in a position to comment on those things. And like so many other things surrounding this church there is no clean line of demarcation.

It's hard to see past "well you don't really know anything yet because you're new." It's hard to see past that because 1) it's rude 2) it assumes a lot about me 3) it is a "I can't change your mind to my point of view so I'll just attack you personally" tactic.

If this is what you have taken from what I have said, then I apologize for not being clear enough... let me try to put it another way that I hope will be clearer...

Because there are aspects of the subculture of Adventism that you have not experienced yet... and some which you will never experience, there will always be topics that you cannot speak on knowledgeably, just as I cannot. You were not raised Adventist, as I was not; you did not attend Adventist schools, as I did not. Like me, you learned of the doctrine independent of the subculture as opposed to someone like StormyOne whose family was Adventist 2 generations or more before he was born who was born into the Adventist subculture and living the Adventist lifestyle long before he was introduced to the doctrines from which that lifestyle proceeds. And there are those who adopt perspectives that are divergent, like believing that one should prove scripture by Ellen White or that EGW alone was sufficient to get one to heaven because of there having the subculture of Adventism without having a solid doctrinal foundation. But the aspects of the Adventist subculture that we are able to experience, we still have to actually experience it before we can speak on it one way or another. You say you find it offensive when it is pointed out that you're new and don't know; is it any less offensive when someone who is, in fact, new decides their experience is authoritative for all Adventists and if they havent experienced it, it must therefore be a myth? Our experiences are not the same across the board. Everything I see and hear and encounter others may not; that doesnt make either any more or less Adventist than the others, however. We all 'know in part, an understand in part', the Apostle Paul says. Noone's anecdotal experience is authoritative for everyone else; often it is not authoritative for *anyone* else.

I've seen/learned a lot in General Theology this week. Some good things, some bad things. It's been cemented for me that if someone cannot refute the scripture you give, they will attack your denomination. If they don't know your denomination they'll spend countless posts trying to GUESS it. If they can't guess your denomination, they'll attack your character.

Silly me, I broadcast my denomination icon so it's a quicker road for them just to go straight to my character!

So then I come here and I'm told I really don't know what I'm talking about because I'm new? Great. I don't even know why I bother sometimes.

Actually, that's not true, I do know why I bother. I bother because this week while being slammed against the wall repeatedly there were some bright spots. I met a really great person named Roger (Orthodox) and a Messianic that stole my heart with an awesome post, a Catholic that really is starting to question what he's grown up in and is reaching out for answers, and I got to know Woobadooba a lot better......in other words, in the pit of it all there are great people here that encourage others and really do let Christ shine through them. Thank God for the people that admit they're the least of the brethren and reach out to others!!!!

I hope that I touched at least one person this week. I don't know if I did and I probably won't find out until the resurrection, but hey....I'll keep trying.

Also, it wasn't a total loss because I did get complimented on my spelling.

I'm just going to have to spit out the bones from now on. I really can't allow stumblingblocks to keep up what they're doing. I can't, and I won't.

I cant speak to your experience in General Theology because I havent been there... but regarding what you are calling 'stumblingblocks'... God is not obligated to use just people who you consider like minded as you... or even those whom you like or tolerate to give you instruction.. By determining that they are stumblingblocks you run the risk of shutting up your ears to what God wants you to hear... even if you are not really willing to hear it at that point.

Selah.

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[TrustAndObey]

I cant speak to your experience in General Theology because I havent been there... but regarding what you are calling 'stumblingblocks'... God is not obligated to use just people who you consider like minded as you... or even those whom you like or tolerate to give you instruction.. By determining that they are stumblingblocks you run the risk of shutting up your ears to what God wants you to hear... even if you are not really willing to hear it at that point.

I appreciate you taking the time you did in your reply.

I saw your name on the active user list in General Theology the other day and you know what's sad? Even though some of those people have been ruthless with me, I cringed more when I saw your name. Let me quickly apologize though because what I thought was going to happen is that you were going to jump right in alliance with them to let me know how uneducated I am. I'll admit right now that I don't consider you someone that would step up to the plate for me and defend his sister. In fact, it's been my experience so far that you seem like you're out to change me.

I had a preconceived notion about you that turned out not to be true (as far as the GT)....so awesumtenor, I am still learning and I admit (openly and often) that I don't know everything. In fact, if anyone here ever hears me say that I know everything and have full truth, you have my permission right now to lock me away and throw away the key! I'm casting out preconceived notions on a DAILY basis at this point, and also learning I'm not the One driving in my life and that people aren't always what I think they are.

It drives me crazy when people won't listen to common sense or admit that the Bible doesn't say what they want it to....so I earnestly try never to be like that. At some point, however, isn't it a game of who is right and who is wrong? When two people believe two different things and believe it sincerely....when is it time to stop? If you had scripture that seemed to back up your belief and I had scripture supporting mine, isn't it up to the Holy Spirit at that point to show the person in error the truth?

It's my firm belief that you can do much more harm than good by pushing your beliefs on people to the point of suffocation. And I'm not just talking about pushing them on people that say "well my church teaches it so it must be true". I'm also talking about pushing them on people that have studied the doctrine, have studied the Bible, and do listen to different viewpoints, but still feel their beliefs are completely Biblical and correct. I know there are others that believe very much like I do, and people that believe very much like Stormy does....but constantly butting heads about it isn't going to change my mind because I know what I believe and why. If in the future I have new revelation it will be because GOD gave it to me and not because someone yelled at me so much I decided I better just conform.

And yes, I totally agree that I don't know about experiences that have happened to others in the Adventist church. I could be Adventist for 60 years and still not have the experiences that some have had though! You can't just assume that once I'm in the church for a longer length of time I will definitely experience those things. A person that was raised Adventist will certainly have different experiences than I've had, agreed, and I'll never know what that's like.

I'll comment on the rest tomorrow. I'm exhausted and I just saw the time.

God bless,
~Lainie

 

[awesumtenor]

I appreciate you taking the time you did in your reply.

I saw your name on the active user list in General Theology the other day and you know what's sad? Even though some of those people have been ruthless with me, I cringed more when I saw your name. Let me quickly apologize though because what I thought was going to happen is that you were going to jump right in alliance with them to let me know how uneducated I am.

You're right; this is sad. On what basis would you draw the conclusion that I would "jump right in alliance with them to let me know how uneducated I am"? I have never discussed what I perceive your level of education is with anyone... not even you...mainly because I havent deemed it relevant enough to ponder. Neither your nor anyone else can ever said you've ever seen me argue against Aventist beliefs solely out of spite and for the purpose of taking gratuitous shots at yoiu...or anyone else for that matter... So please enlighten me on how your mind could ever come to such a conclusion...

I'll admit right now that I don't consider you someone that would step up to the plate for me and defend his sister. In fact, it's been my experience so far that you seem like you're out to change me.

Your viewing me like that just reinforces that you don't know me. At all. You barely know about me...and it's more tha a little disturbing that you would fill in the gaps with presumptions that have no basis in fact...could it be that because you know you would never step up and defend me that you presume the sentiment is mutual? I don't know...

As for your thinking that I am trying to change you, that is not my job because the name on my birth certificate is not Ghost, Holy. I am not here to change, convince, convict or convert you or anyone else for that matter. I cannot even do those things to *myself*. That said, there are things you manifest outwardly from time to time that are inconsistent with your profession of Christ...the preconceived notions, the presumptions of intent, the taking of gratuitous shots at people you are at variance with, the lack of tolerance, the lashing out at people when you are in 'defensive mode' who had no part in putting you in that mode... and those things do need to change, albeit I am not the one that will or can change them in you. But I will call you on it, if the need arises... and someday you may even thank me for it

I had a preconceived notion about you that turned out not to be true (as far as the GT)....so awesumtenor, I am still learning and I admit (openly and often) that I don't know everything. In fact, if anyone here ever hears me say that I know everything and have full truth, you have my permission right now to lock me away and throw away the key! I'm casting out preconceived notions on a DAILY basis at this point, and also learning I'm not the One driving in my life and that people aren't always what I think they are.

And you were going so well until you qualified the first statement... you would do yourself the greatest service, if you took all of your preconceived notions about people, carried them to the nearest landfill and left them there. Make sure you take that categorizing and labeling thing you have going along with it. Confess and repent all of that and empty yourself of it and make yourself available to God to be filled with what He has for you because when all is said and done, God is not going to judge you based on how you treat Sassy or Honor or others who are like minded as yourself... but on how you treat me... or StormyOne ... or Statrei... or anyone else who would fall into the category of "the least of these, Christ's brethren' for you because what you say and do to them, you say and do to Christ... and Jesus is keeping score.

It drives me crazy when people won't listen to common sense or admit that the Bible doesn't say what they want it to....so I earnestly try never to be like that. At some point, however, isn't it a game of who is right and who is wrong? When two people believe two different things and believe it sincerely....when is it time to stop? If you had scripture that seemed to back up your belief and I had scripture supporting mine, isn't it up to the Holy Spirit at that point to show the person in error the truth?

One of the hardest things to come to grips with is the fact that two people can read the same scripture and honestly come up with differing conclusions and both positions are defensible from the word. But it happens all the time because we all know in part and understand in part. We are applying mental faculties that are feeble and finite in an attempt to comprehends the God of the universe in all of his infinite greatness. Both sides could be right... and both sides could be wrong. All that has been said and written about God amounts to a ice cube chipped out of an iceberg. That is how limited our understanding is. Compounding this, everyone is not ready to comprehend on the same level and part of the certainty one side or the other may hold is their not having considered all there is on a particular topic. We cannot immediately presume that one is being obtuse, however.

It's my firm belief that you can do much more harm than good by pushing your beliefs on people to the point of suffocation. And I'm not just talking about pushing them on people that say "well my church teaches it so it must be true". I'm also talking about pushing them on people that have studied the doctrine, have studied the Bible, and do listen to different viewpoints, but still feel their beliefs are completely Biblical and correct. I know there are others that believe very much like I do, and people that believe very much like Stormy does....but constantly butting heads about it isn't going to change my mind because I know what I believe and why. If in the future I have new revelation it will be because GOD gave it to me and not because someone yelled at me so much I decided I better just conform.

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that his ( or anyone's for that matter ) question has nothing to do with you and what you believe, whatsoever? That he threw it out into the forum because there are things he is trying to work out and he'd just like to get other perpectives as part of that process. Because if you had, then the presumption that he isnt really Adventist or that he was setting out to undermine your faith or that he was attacking your belief probably wouldn't have come up. To quote Rick Warren... "It's not about you" and I submit that it never was. Everyone that holds a position that does not align with yours is not seeking to be your adversary and their presenting that position does not automatically make them attacking what you believe; I submit that often you or any other were neither cause nor consideration for the question.

And yes, I totally agree that I don't know about experiences that have happened to others in the Adventist church. I could be Adventist for 60 years and still not have the experiences that some have had though! You can't just assume that once I'm in the church for a longer length of time I will definitely experience those things. A person that was raised Adventist will certainly have different experiences than I've had, agreed, and I'll never know what that's like.

Which is exactly my point and exactly why one cannot be dismissive of the experinces of others solely on the basis of the fact that their experience does not equal one's own... but also before one draws conclusions about intents when things are stated or questions are asked,the context in which the question is beig asked, including the experience of the questioner in this church have to be taken into account. That keeps one away from errant presumption and from blasting away with both barrels just because your preconceived notions lead you to believe this is the OK Corral and you name just changed to Clanton...

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[TrustAndObey]

I love it when someone tells me what I "need" to do while in the same breath they tell me they aren't trying to change me!

I've come to the conclusion that I have no problem with the ideas you present, it's your arrogant attitude. It's a stumblingblock to me Awesumtenor and I am not going to play the "who is smarter" game with you anymore. I don't care who is. All I know is that God humbles us all and maybe you haven't had that experience yet, who knows. We're to lift HIM up, not ourselves. But have fun with that, it's falling on deaf ears from now on.

God bless,
~Lainie

 

[daveleau]

Answering question and closing because this has gone on long enough:

One must choose a congregational home, whether it is Baptist, OBOB, Lutheran, SDA-Traditional or SDA Progressive. Once you make your choice (and it must be made honestly and not so one can debate in the area they wish to debate in...we understand the beliefs of each congregation enough to know when this occurs). Once your choice has been made, you can debate in your own congregation. That is the point of congregational forums. The rest of the congregational forums are there for you to post ONLY fellowship or questions. No debating.

I hope this clears it up. If not, PM me or other staffers.