Oops, so is it that we are not to debate or not post?

[tall73]

I am a bit confused again on the sub-forums. Previously it was established that debating by those not of the same group would not be allowed, but fellowship (non-debating) from both was allowed.

Now it seems it is saying you can't even post if you are not a part of that group? Am I right in this? Or is it still just debate?

And I assume it means you can't debate in your own group either, but just post fellowship?

Sorry, I am again confused here. And I am not really too excited about getting banned. But I enjoy posting in both sections just to add to the discussion.

 

[HoneyDew]

LOL Tall, I share your confusion. Hopefully, the mods can clarify soon.
It's a big forum so I bounce around the place. It helps. I learn about other denominations and how others view the world.

 

[Sophia7]

It is my understanding that we can still debate issues on our own subforum and only ask questions on the other, similar to the way it would work if a non-Adventist posted on the general Adventist forum. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be honest, I don't even know where I fit in here. I'm a little frustrated at the moment. I hate the fact that this forum had to be separated into "Traditional" and "Progressive" subforums. In general, I suppose I would be considered conservative on most issues, but I don't read the 28 fundamental beliefs for my theology. I agree with them although I have some concerns about the biblical reasoning the church uses to explain some of them.

Rather, I read the Bible for my theology. I disagree with the traditional Adventists on several things, and I disagree with the progressive Adventists on several things. I would really rather not be labeled. And the traditional Adventists seem to not want to discuss anything with anyone who disagrees with them on anything. I fear that if I post anything in disagreement with what they say there, they will tell me to leave because all they want is affirmation and agreement.

On the other hand, my beliefs about many things are probably too conservative for most progressive Adventists, but I get the idea that they are at least more open to discussion and probably won't attack me if I post something controversial there.

Frankly, I enjoy discussion with people who have different viewpoints from mine. Because my husband (Tall73) is a pastor in a small town, most of the people we come into contact with are church members with fairly conservative beliefs. Also, I stay at home most of the time taking care of the kids, so I don't have that many opportunities to go out and meet different people. I find it interesting to hear what people outside of my world think.

So, for the most part, I stick to the general Adventist forum (in addition to some of the general Christian forums) because there is more discussion, and I don't have to fit myself into a little traditional or progressive box. It's sad, though, that we have to divide ourselves because we can't disagree civilly and respectfully.

 

[HoneyDew]

Amen, Sophia7. You know, I was given my label I think on the basis of agreeing with some statements made by some posters, and because I agreed that the term "Progressive" was a good word if they had to divide into sub-forums. My viewpoints are across the spectrum. I share that sense of frustration because once you are labelled nothing you say makes a difference to the others. In fact, it seems to infuriate a few.
Like I said, I will bounce around the general forum more and get to learning other worldviews and sharpen my own. I will still be here, though and work toward a better "group home."

 

[TrustAndObey]

Well, join the Frustration Club. I can't think of anyone on here that isn't at least a little frustrated by some of the conversations that have gone on here. That old saying about "you can't please everyone" certainly applies to this forum. LOL

And the traditional Adventists seem to not want to discuss anything with anyone who disagrees with them on anything. I fear that if I post anything in disagreement with what they say there, they will tell me to leave because all they want is affirmation and agreement.

I can't speak on behalf of every Traditional Adventist here, but I do know that we sometimes disagree about doctrine even among ourselves. However, most of us have decided not to make it a public spectacle and we take it into PMs. None of us are robots and we're constantly studying what we believe and why we believe it.

I personally like the new set-up and having a non-debate/fellowship area. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, not at all, in fact I think that's when I learn the most...however, I am battle fatigued and I think a lot of others are too. It's not like this forum is the first time any of us have been "challenged". I think I've had someone challenge me every single day since I became a Christian (let alone since I became an Adventist), and that's the truth. As sad as it is though, sometimes people challenge others just for debate, and that's why there are now three forums....because not everybody wants to deal with that constantly anymore.

The Bible tells us to avoid debate and vain babblings. I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a "safe haven" area where we can go just to discuss doctrine, beliefs, changes in the church, etc without any debating about it.

Let's face it, some people out there think Adventists are a cult anyway, so if I want to debate I'll go mingle. LOL I just don't desire to have fellow Adventists personally insulting me or challenging a belief I've challenged/been challenged a gazillion times in the past about already. I get that enough from friends/family going "uhhhh.....you don't realize Sabbath was just for the Jews? How sad." So obviously if some of the people I know and love can't/won't discuss the Sabbath then I can't go to them with more complex issues...that's why I come here.

In a nutshell I have to defend my faith constantly in real life and I enjoy coming here to talk to people that don't challenge it.

I'm all for the split forums, but that's just my personal opinion. Of course, I wish things had worked out better and they hadn't been necessary in the first place.

God bless,
~Lainie

 

[Cliff2]

It is my understanding that we can still debate issues on our own subforum and only ask questions on the other, similar to the way it would work if a non-Adventist posted on the general Adventist forum. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be honest, I don't even know where I fit in here. I'm a little frustrated at the moment. I hate the fact that this forum had to be separated into "Traditional" and "Progressive" subforums. In general, I suppose I would be considered conservative on most issues, but I don't read the 28 fundamental beliefs for my theology. I agree with them although I have some concerns about the biblical reasoning the church uses to explain some of them.

Rather, I read the Bible for my theology. I disagree with the traditional Adventists on several things, and I disagree with the progressive Adventists on several things. I would really rather not be labeled. And the traditional Adventists seem to not want to discuss anything with anyone who disagrees with them on anything. I fear that if I post anything in disagreement with what they say there, they will tell me to leave because all they want is affirmation and agreement.

On the other hand, my beliefs about many things are probably too conservative for most progressive Adventists, but I get the idea that they are at least more open to discussion and probably won't attack me if I post something controversial there.

Frankly, I enjoy discussion with people who have different viewpoints from mine. Because my husband (Tall73) is a pastor in a small town, most of the people we come into contact with are church members with fairly conservative beliefs. Also, I stay at home most of the time taking care of the kids, so I don't have that many opportunities to go out and meet different people. I find it interesting to hear what people outside of my world think.

So, for the most part, I stick to the general Adventist forum (in addition to some of the general Christian forums) because there is more discussion, and I don't have to fit myself into a little traditional or progressive box. It's sad, though, that we have to divide ourselves because we can't disagree civilly and respectfully.

Sophia7

It is really good to meet Tall73"s wife.

What a difficult task you have being a Pr's wife.

God bless both of you.

 

[PaleHorse]

I think the forums set up is a good idea for the following reasons:
1) each group has a place where their ideas are affirmed and expanded upon
2) there is this "central" area where debates can be had if so desired

As long as we follow the forum rules we all get the best of both worlds. Now, for those that don't fit nicely into either group, there is still this central area where ideas can be expnded and/or debated - questions can be asked. And one great aspect of this is that there is a central location for the discussion; the way it was lead to confusion because there would be two or three threads devoted to the same topic. The "wine" issue is a good example of that; there is the thread here in the debate area called "To Drink of not to Drink" and active discussion was taking place in it, but at the same time there became a discussion of the same topic in the Traditional area under the thread entitled "Deut 14:26 - permission to drink?". The current structure ensures the debates are in a central location and aleviates confusion and double postings.

 

[SassySDA]

It is my understanding that we can still debate issues on our own subforum and only ask questions on the other, similar to the way it would work if a non-Adventist posted on the general Adventist forum. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be honest, I don't even know where I fit in here. I'm a little frustrated at the moment. I hate the fact that this forum had to be separated into "Traditional" and "Progressive" subforums. In general, I suppose I would be considered conservative on most issues, but I don't read the 28 fundamental beliefs for my theology. I agree with them although I have some concerns about the biblical reasoning the church uses to explain some of them.

Rather, I read the Bible for my theology. I disagree with the traditional Adventists on several things, and I disagree with the progressive Adventists on several things. I would really rather not be labeled. And the traditional Adventists seem to not want to discuss anything with anyone who disagrees with them on anything. I fear that if I post anything in disagreement with what they say there, they will tell me to leave because all they want is affirmation and agreement.

On the other hand, my beliefs about many things are probably too conservative for most progressive Adventists, but I get the idea that they are at least more open to discussion and probably won't attack me if I post something controversial there.

Frankly, I enjoy discussion with people who have different viewpoints from mine. Because my husband (Tall73) is a pastor in a small town, most of the people we come into contact with are church members with fairly conservative beliefs. Also, I stay at home most of the time taking care of the kids, so I don't have that many opportunities to go out and meet different people. I find it interesting to hear what people outside of my world think.

So, for the most part, I stick to the general Adventist forum (in addition to some of the general Christian forums) because there is more discussion, and I don't have to fit myself into a little traditional or progressive box. It's sad, though, that we have to divide ourselves because we can't disagree civilly and respectfully.

I am a "Traditional Seventh-day Adventist", I will only speak for myself in this response, as I cannot know the mind of my fellow Traditional Seventh-day Adventists.

That being said, I wish to try and explain how I feel about this "division", this separation of Traditional and Progressive that appears to be necessary on this forum.

While it may appear that I do not like it when someone disagrees with me, it is not that they disagree with me that bothers me. If everyone agreed with me, life on this planet would quickly become very boring, and I wouldn't learn anything new.

I would also, at this time, like to reiterate that I do NOT believe that the Seventh-day Adventist church is complete perfection. I am not blind, deaf, or dumb. I DO know there are problems, just as there are in any other organization. Perfection, on this earth, simply doesn't exist. However, if I could find NOTHING "right" about this church, I wouldn't be a member of it. Thusly, what I DO have a problem with is the constant negative posts against her. I simply find it hard to believe that some appear not to be able to post ANYTHING even remotely positive about the very church they vow allegiance to. Surely they HAVE to see SOMETHING good about this church, otherwise why remain a member? Yet, I have still to see one positive post from more than one poster here.

Just as when a child whines constantly to a parent/guardian, they soon tune it out. It all begins to run together into one long wail.

Do these posters have a right to post whatever they feel about their church? They do. But I have a right to be able to have one corner of this forum in which I can safely go to fellowship with like believers. To where I know, before I even enter, I will find some peace and harmony, to refresh myself before going back into the throng.

Whatever comments are made, shouldn't be made directly about a person in this forum anyway, they should be made concerning a belief, a doctrine, a practice of the church.

New ideas, new information are more than welcome in the Traditional area. It's not the information so much as how it is presented. The presentation, in my humble opinion, has been the main problem. I, myself, am not immune to that.

Anyone can say pretty much whatever they want to me, as long as they do it respectfully, and it doesn't hurt to try to temper the negativity with some good news once in awhile, either.



I get tired of reading that. First of all, I abhor negativity. It doesn't correct anything, and just brings everyone "down".

 

[moicherie]

Can we have a Traditional Progressive forum

 

[HoneyDew]

Can we have a Traditional Progressive forum

Hold thy tongue, Missy!

 

[HoneyDew]

Anyone can say pretty much whatever they want to me, as long as they do it respectfully, and it doesn't hurt to try to temper the negativity with some good news once in awhile, either.

 

[StormyOne]

Everyone is different, and clearly everyone does not fit into a simple box labeled traditional, or progressive.... I suspect that there are some progressives that are very traditional in some areas or traditionalists that can be progressive in areas... so the labels kinda fit but not really.... it is a conundrum that is not easily resolved yet separation won't resolve it because even among those who consider themselves traditional or progressive there are differences....

I see this place, this forum as a vehicle to provide information, I take from it what I can use, discard that which I don't think I need at the moment. It is irrelevant to me who is giving the info, if the info is legit, and usable, then I benefit... I know that Tall is a pastor somewhere, here he is just Tall, I may agree with the information he provides, I may not, but it's not about him, its about the info he offers.... If it is all negative and all true, so what? It cannot be inferred from the info he provides that he is a negative person... which is an inference that has been made here in the past......

Lastly, for those who suggest that if a person cannot find anything good about a church why be a member, I would say you don't understand and I am not sure there are words that can I can use to make you understand....

It is only through resistance that something grows stronger..... the bible does say to avoid foolish questions, geneaologies, and babblings.... what did the bible writer have in mind when he wrote that? Consider the following theme that Paul was alluding to:

*** 3:9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. (10) As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, (11) knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

1Ti 1:3-7

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, (4) nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. (5) The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (6) Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, (7) desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Here is an idea of what was happening then:

The Theogony of the Gentiles, or the ten Sephirot or numbers in the Cabalistic tree of the Jews, or the Aeones of the Gnostics and Valentinians, which are said to proceed from one another, as some have thought; but both the public and private genealogies of the Jews, which they kept to show of what tribe they were, or to prove themselves priests and Levites, and the like; of which there was no end, and which often produced questions and debates. By reason of their captivities and dispersions, they were much at a loss to distinguish their tribes and families.

So intricate an affair, and such an endless business was this. And this affair of genealogies might be now the more the subject of inquiry among judaizing Christians, since there was, and still is, an expectation among the Jews, that in the times of the Messiah these things will be set aright.

The foolish questions were started in the schools of the Jews; and genealogies; of their elders, Rabbins, and doctors, by whom their traditions are handed down from one to another, in fixing which they greatly laboured; and contentions and strivings about the law; the rites and ceremonies of it, and about the sense of it, and its various precepts, as litigated in the schools of Hillell and Shammai, the one giving it one way, and the other another; and what one declared to be free according to the law, the other declared forbidden; which occasioned great contentions and quarrels between the followers of the one, and of the other, as both the Misna and Talmud show: and agreeably to this sense, the Syriac version renders it, "the contentions and strifes of the scribes"; the Jewish doctors, who were some on the side of Hillell, and others on the side of Shammai; as well as went into parties and strifes among themselves, and oftentimes about mere trifles; things of no manner of importance; wherefore it follows,
for they are unprofitable and vain; empty things, of no manner of use, to inform the judgment, improve the mind, or influence the life and conversation.

Is that what is happening here on this forum? I don't think so, and I have been on forums where foolishness has been debated... but that's just me...

 

[TrustAndObey]

Can we have a Traditional Progressive forum

A great name for that would be Proditional. Or Tragressive.

 

[SassySDA]

Hold thy tongue, Missy!

Amen, HD, lets not give them any ideas. rofl

 

[Princessdi]

Ok, I guess even after reading all the posts, I am still a little, of make that a lot, confused. I have also been "encouraged" to make the choice of Progressive, based on what others draw from my posts. I have yet to declare either, and at this time nor do I plan to, since neither adequately describes all of my views.

So how did we get here anyway? The fact is still that it seems Traditionals have decided that they don't want to discuss/debate doctrine with those who don't baiscally agree with them. Also I am also confused on whether anyone can post to traditional forum at all, which is not the rule for the rest of the forums. hmmmmm?

 

[PaleHorse]

I freely and accurately declare myself as Traditional and I accept any limitations such a declaration imposes on my ability to post (specifically where).

 

[tall73]

Well at this point I already declared, but I don't know exactly what those limitations are.

 

[Dizahab]

Being new and having spent some time reviewing many many posts in all three divisions, I have come to the conclusion that this action is absolutley necessary. At the risk of getting warnings or having my post deleted, I can rightfully say that there IS a faction in this forum who want a fight ALL the time. I have been shocked to see the snide and "under the breath" insults from ( I won't mention the sub-forum). I was in a particular thread asking very pertainent questions. I did not "bait" anyone, and yet I was falsely accused of that. I was taken back by the unwarranted attacks. So I must say, that I am relieved that I can talk with peacable Adventist friends without fear of attacks. I look forward to calm and rational biblical discussions.

 

[tall73]

Ah, I now figured out what the limitations are. For those interested the moderators have clarified here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2248981-response-to-the-new-notice.html

 

[StormyOne]

Being new and having spent some time reviewing many many posts in all three divisions, I have come to the conclusion that this action is absolutley necessary. At the risk of getting warnings or having my post deleted, I can rightfully say that there IS a faction in this forum who want a fight ALL the time. I have been shocked to see the snide and "under the breath" insults from ( I won't mention the sub-forum). I was in a particular thread asking very pertainent questions. I did not "bait" anyone, and yet I was falsely accused of that. I was taken back by the unwarranted attacks. So I must say, that I am relieved that I can talk with peacable Adventist friends without fear of attacks. I look forward to calm and rational biblical discussions.

You have been here for not quite a week, and in this short time you have determined that some here are obsessed with one issue in particular, irrational, prone to fight all the time, snide, insulting, false accusers, not capable of rational bible discussions and unresponsive to your pertinent questions... You have also concluded that the split here is needed because of this experience you had in the Reformed/Progressive forums..... alrighty then...

Thank you for sharing your assessment of the place.... I pray your future experiences here are more pleasing than your recent ones.....