Ontology and archeypes

[GrowingSmaller]

Ontology is the study of "what is the nature of such and such".

Archetypes are ideas in the unconscious mind, which, afaik, are to some degree programmable or culturally influenced. The psychologist Jung is responsible for this theory I think.

Now, humans are purely material entities then we are of the same nature as rocks, sand and other thinks we can dispose of at wish and whim. And that is false.

Now, once again, if people ore of mere animal nature, then that is dehumanisaiton once again although to a lesser degree. ANd again that is false.

Therefore I propose that humans are more than material, and also more than animal. Anything else is quite possibly immoral.

So, we have an "archetype" for animal and material, but also one for humanity. The three are not the same. As our bodies are animate and contain material elements, it must be the soul which makes us distinct from those elements.

Anything less than this is a confused morality which betrays us.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am not sure how the trinity fits in with the "ruach" (spirit) in human beings, the image and likeness of God in other words.

The Catholics teach that the image is in its eternity (immortality) and its spirituality (immateriality).

But I have heard of the vestiga trinitatis (vestige of the trinity) in Augustine's apologetics. But that relates to memory, intellect and will.

In any case, call me the lamb Id think twice about joining. Id be scared.

I wouldn't see that as a blessing, but in theology afaik the lamb was slain from all eternity, potentially making that sacrifice part of the 'ruach' (spiritual substance). But, as we know, theology can be complicated business .

All of those material associations with God be it Jesus, Buddha - whatever your tradition. To me it is materialising human spirit is wrong - and in that very sense if jams up (blocks, interferes with) personal ontology.

For me at least the Muslim solution works wonders - wa have ruh (spirit) which is from God but not God, but little else do we know of it. If I could "look at" my spirit in this life, it wouldn't look like Jesus or Buddha, rather the concept of looking at it would be a category mistake. Like asking "what colour is middle c?". A kind of religious synaesthesia.


Then again in some Muslim traditions one has a hidden a spiritual form, like a beast, animal etc in the case of sinners. And something more pure and bright in the case of the good. God willing that will be me.


I suppose the idea of communicable attributes comes in - what we can share of Gods nature and what we cannot.


Thanks for the time and space.

So, what is spirituality to you?

 

[Noxot]

spirituality is higher being. it is living in God who is good. it is for the soul to be reunited with the Logos.

it is a crucifixion and an ascending forever, a death and a resurrection.

Rev 14:11 (ESV2011)
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Rev 15:8 (ESV2011)
and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Rev 7:15 (ESV2011)
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Rev 4:8 (ESV2011)
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

Rom 14:8 (ESV2011)
For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

ect.

 

[Noxot]

For me at least the Muslim solution works wonders - wa have ruh (spirit) which is from God but not God, but little else do we know of it.

have you heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_monism ?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

spirituality is higher being. it is living in God who is good. it is for the soul to be reunited with the Logos.

View attachment 233742

it is a crucifixion and an ascending forever, a death and a resurrection.

Rev 14:11 (ESV2011)
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Rev 15:8 (ESV2011)
and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Rev 7:15 (ESV2011)
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Rev 4:8 (ESV2011)
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

Rom 14:8 (ESV2011)
For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

ect.

Ty Noxot for the comments...

I suppose that's the "folly to the Greeks" then, crucificiton being wisdom..?

The sage (and apparently there is an archetype for "sage"), normally the worldly wise, is the one voluntarily and intentionally, purposively condemned to a wrongful death.

I am not sure how unconscious process is going to interpret that.


Everyday churchgoing Christians, well they seem to be more healthy than average.

Its ironic that a Pope preached about a secular culture of death. And then I go into church and see a Crucifix. And yet see healthy people.

In social psychology the negative state relief model says people will sometimes be pro social to relieve guilty feelings. So there could be some good in guilt for society. I don't know how systematically an atheist can repent and regret...


I watched a documentary on St John of the Cross though, from the Catholic tradition. It seemed he delighted in suffering and self denial. Yet the average Catholic too, is a healthy specimen.

So I am not sure. Spiritually I agree we have at least an idea ( like an innate sense) we are different from matter, at least, which materialism OTOH if taken seriously I think leads the naive man to nihilism. If we are only atoms, then why bother?

Maybe this is even to blame for that "gothic" fashion movement? Existentialists wore black a lot, but these dudes are even worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fashion

As Husserl thought, if its all a natural plenum of matter and natural law, what space for the sense of being a person?

Also, an old dictionary mentioned Protestantism as reviving "Hebraism", in the sense of seeing a blessing in terms of wealth and outward success. No offence meant. Maybe referring to the capitalist money making ethic etc of some of the protestant church. Some churches shun people because they're out of work - so whats the primary evaluation.

So, what is a "sage"? IIRC there is a gospel of wealth, popular in America - God will make you rich!!!

Is there an objective truth, or are we all free to invent our own idea, without external dictation? I suppose different churched will attract different psychological types.

I have read various philosophical moral ideas. It can be confusing.

Its interesting the in revelation the beast is the evil one. The beast idea being close to the animal, the inhuman, the inhumane....

And yet the lamb is good. I read of a idea where its said we identify goodness with mammals, and evil with reptiles. Ewoks in starwars, Yoda etc. The good gremlin, all cuddly and cute. OTOH most of sci-fi villian creatures have a reptilian or insect like aspect.

Could some apocalyptic (end times) and heaven / hell literature reflect or inform unconscious ideas and programs in the Jungian sense?

 

[Ken-1122]

Now, humans are purely material entities then we are of the same nature as rocks, sand and other thinks we can dispose of at wish and whim. And that is false.

How did you make that leap? Material is just a label given to everything that has an actual existence. The material label doesn’t mean they are in any way equal; if spirits, souls, even God were proven to exist, they would be given the material label also.

Now, once again, if people ore of mere animal nature, then that is dehumanisaiton once again although to a lesser degree. ANd again that is false.

That depends on how you define “animal”. If you define a warm blooded, air breathing being as an animal, then because humans fit into that category, we are animals by that definition.

Therefore I propose that humans are more than material, and also more than animal. Anything else is quite possibly immoral.

So according to your proposal, what else are we?

So, we have an "archetype" for animal and material, but also one for humanity. The three are not the same. As our bodies are animate and contain material elements, it must be the soul which makes us distinct from those elements.

If you are going to assume humans have souls, how do you know animals do not?