Only way?

aiki · Oct 7, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Faith seems to be smoke and mirrors to me, or desperate self deception.

Faith is an integral part of living. You can't go through a single day without exercising faith in something (unless, of course, you're unconscious). You must have faith in your dentist, your doctor, the other drivers on the road, the cooks in your favorite restaurant, and so on. How, then, is such faith "smoke and mirrors"? It is a self-deceived person who thinks it is unnecessary.

Just_a_Joe said:
How can people be more concerned with something out of their experience entirely instead of worrying about who they really are?

I have never had a heart attack. It's completely outside of my experience. But I eat well, and exercise in the hope of never having one. Am I overly concerned, then, with the prospect of having a heart attack? Of course not. I'm just being prudent about my health. If I'm bothering about my physical health, about my temporal well-being, why should I not also bother about my eternal, spiritual well-being? In the context of eternity, the few short years I live on this planet are a blink of an eye. If there is an eternity to come (and I believe there is) I ought to be very concerned about how I will spend that eternity. Only a fool would focus on the present at the expense of preparing well for an eternal future.

Just_a_Joe said:
Is that what fear of death does to people? How could they fall into this trap of seeing themselves as broken/evil/sinful by default requiring a benevolent salvation?

Why is it a trap? Quite obviously, it is the truth. One has only to give human history a cursory glance to see the evil that flows constantly from the human heart. What is a trap is thinking otherwise and ignoring the need for forgiveness and reconciliation to one's Maker.

Just_a_Joe said:
It's surely ok to believe anything about the afterlife.

I disagree. If the Bible is right (and I believe it is), then mistaking what the afterlife entails can be eternally destructive!

Just_a_Joe said:
What about this side of life? Why is it that nobody seems to be as concerned about the only reality we have? It is the absolute nature of things for us, and we brush it off as a neusanse? No wander there is such amount of confusion and strive!

God in His word directs us to be very concerned about "this side of life." We are to live now in expectation of an eternal future with Him. We are to love sacrificially, and defend what is true, and glorify our Creator. But our temporal existence is not the "absolute nature of things." Far from it. We are made, not for time, but for eternity. This is why we are told in the Bible to "set our affections on things above, not on things on the the Earth."

Selah.

aiki · Oct 7, 2016

Radrook said:
Would you dip your children's hands for a few seconds in boiling oil because they didn't know what you were telling them?

1.) God is not a Father to all of the creatures He has made, only to those who by faith in Christ have been adopted into His family.
2.) God does not punish the ignorant but the wicked and guilty.
3.) God is not a human. He is the Creator and Sustainer of all things. As such, He stands apart, utterly unique in all of the universe, relating with us in a correspondingly unique way that defies the comparison to a human father that you have made.

Selah.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 7, 2016

Albion said:
There wouldn't be any "escape clause" for him such as he wants for Mongolians.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

aiki said:
Faith is an integral part of living. You can't go through a single day without exercising faith in something (unless, of course, you're unconscious). You must have faith in your dentist, your doctor, the other drivers on the road, the cooks in your favorite restaurant, and so on. How, then, is such faith "smoke and mirrors"? It is a self-deceived person who thinks it is unnecessary.

I have never had a heart attack. It's completely outside of my experience. But I eat well, and exercise in the hope of never having one. Am I overly concerned, then, with the prospect of having a heart attack? Of course not. I'm just being prudent about my health. If I'm bothering about my physical health, about my temporal well-being, why should I not also bother about my eternal, spiritual well-being? In the context of eternity, the few short years I live on this planet are a blink of an eye. If there is an eternity to come (and I believe there is) I ought to be very concerned about how I will spend that eternity. Only a fool would focus on the present at the expense of preparing well for an eternal future.

Why is it a trap? Quite obviously, it is the truth. One has only to give human history a cursory glance to see the evil the flows constantly from the human heart. What is a trap is thinking otherwise and ignoring the need for forgiveness and reconciliation to one's Maker.

I disagree. If the Bible is right (and I believe it is), then mistaking what the afterlife entails can be eternally destructive!

God in His word directs us to be very concerned about "this side of life." We are to live now in expectation of an eternal future with Him. We are to love sacrificially, and defend what is true, and glorify our Creator. But our temporal existence is not the "absolute nature of things." Far from it. We are made, not for time, but for eternity. This is why we are told in the Bible to "set our affections on things above, not on things on the the Earth."

Selah.

You got many things wrong in what I was saying there. It's ok, I fully understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. To try and explain my thoughts clearer, it's smth like this: believing in any kind of ideas of what happens after death is self-deceiving because it's like believing what life is like on an imagined planet orbiting Alfa star of Centaurus constellation. Zero facts. All of your examples are about this life, which we can know. That's in essence what I was talking about.

1John2:4 · Oct 7, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
When and how, to be exact?

When and how do you hear about the word?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

1John2:4 said:
When and how do you hear about the word?

The topic is about those who've never heard during their lifetime, for whatever reason. You say, all will hear. I'm asking, do you know in more detail when and how it is going to happen? Please, don't answer a question with a question

1John2:4 · Oct 7, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
The topic is about those who've never heard during their lifetime, for whatever reason. You say, all will hear. I'm asking, do you know in more details when and how is it going to happen? Please, don't answer a question with a question

I am sorry, I just wanted to clarify what you were asking. I really do not have more detail, perhaps He is pressing upon your heart to share Him with these people that you have a heart for.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

Serving Zion said:
You do need to read the whole passage for context, and also be careful that you aren't reading it with bias.

Jesus is addressing His disciples as His crucifixion becomes imminent. So most of the meaning in that statement was to encourage them as Judaism was taking on a form of opposition to Jesus, and attempting to reject Him from The Kingdom of God. But because Jesus has been faithful and loyal to YHWH without sin, in fact YHWH supports Him, so every knee will bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord.

Thank you very much for explaining in the context. I agree, this is the only way any text must be understood, if we really want to understand its meaning, and not using it for our own agenda. You know, it's not only about this or that verse. It's more about a particular prevailing doctrine or view of the way of salvation...

Serving Zion said:
As for those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, or perhaps have only heard an insufficient rendition of it, then they most likely have not actually rejected Him.

OK, they didn't reject it. Going back to my OP, are they not going to hell then, all of them? You go to heaven if you haven't heard the correct or sufficient message about Jesus? Or what do you mean exactly?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

graceandpeace said:
Hi,

First, I must disclose that I don't believe in "eternal torment" that many call hell. It seems from the Gospels that Jesus did believe in a possible exclusion from the Kingdom of God - but what that looks like, or how long it would last, is the subject of Christian debate. Liberal Christians like me generally reject the idea of "eternal torment," & beliefs from there vary.

So, regarding the referenced passage in John, I don't see any reason to think Jesus is saying only Christians will be with God. I don't think the passage is about salvation at all. Instead, I think he is quite plainly stating that anyone who wishes to come to God will find that He will be there along the way - indeed, he will be the way. Jesus is the one who reveals God to us. This is not the same as saying only people who believe certain things or have a certain religion and such are going to be part of God's Kingdom, though some Christian groups do believe that way.

We can't say for certain who will be in God's Kingdom. We just can't know this. But as Christians, we can hope.

Hmmmmmmmm.... Very very interesting!!!!!!!!!! Really, I've never in my life met anyone who (at least openly) shared about such beliefs. Are there many people like that, do you know? I'm discovering something new today.

Basically, you are saying, Jesus isn't the only way in the traditional or most common interpretation of that. So, He is the way no matter what, but that way can be expressed in many ways for us... Like, for example, being a Muslim and never hearing the gospel of Jesus in their lifetime? Or being born before Jesus's time? Or not hearing anything about Jesus like aboriginal peoples on different island and continents before the arrival of Europeans? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Interesting. Very very interesting. This is smth new to me.

But then, what to do with all the traditional religions? Just toss them all as garbage, so to speak?

I guess you're saying no matter who you were and what you believed or disbelieved during your earthly life, you get a shot at heaven? This is pretty radical to me. Doesn't sound Christian at all.

Can you please explain more, maybe with some examples of different scenarios if you can?

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 7, 2016

graceandpeace said:
This is not the same as saying only people who believe certain things or have a certain religion and such are going to be part of God's Kingdom, though some Christian groups do believe that way.

We can't say for certain who will be in God's Kingdom. We just can't know this. But as Christians, we can hope.

This is also not the same as saying that any idolators will be in heaven, since YHWH specifically forbids idolatry and says no idolators, and no one worshiping idols/ false gods [unless,of course like anyone, they repent], will be in heaven. Right ?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

miknik5 said:
The GOSPEL will be preached to the ends of the earth. Then the end will come

There will be not one who has not heard the GOSPEL

Matthew 24:14

We know for a fact that there have been people who haven't heard. Didn't hear the gospel in a conventional way, at least. Not through the modes of communication that are physical.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

1John2:4 said:
I am sorry, I just wanted to clarify what you were asking. I really do not have more detail, perhaps He is pressing upon your heart to share Him with these people that you have a heart for.

OK. Well, that's the whole thing. There is a question that arises from the message of the gospel as presented by all churches I've been to. I've been to many different kinds, but I guess they were all more or less main-stream if you can say so - or at least well known and spread around the wrold even if they're considered cults like JW or the Mormons etc for example. Their central ideas are similar, if we don't consider all the millions of details.

Anyway, there is this question, and the answer I get is, in essence, "I don't know" or "it is not for us to know" or "it doesn't apply to you so you shouldn't worry". Well, all these answers are not satisfactory:

1. "I don't know" - How do you claim you know perfect truth? How do you know that you know the truth if it doesn't stand the most simple and most logical question resulting from it?
2. "We're not supposed to know it, none of our human business" - if God opened some knowledge and gave us logic, why is it we shouldn't understand something so simple and logical? Why should we limit the scope of our understanding just to our little world and our little circumstances? We know the world is quite larger than our small neck of the woods...
3. "Doesn't apply to you so you shouldn't bother" - I will be bothered, because in an around about way, indirectly, it does apply to me. If I am told one thing and I see a big contradiction then it applies to me because it prevents me from seeing this message for what it's presented to me - a complete and perfect truth. That way it applies to me, to my situation 100%...

Whatever the question is, it must be tackled directly and honestly. In a clear, simple way if possible.

No need to bury our heads in the sand.......... Why?

aiki · Oct 7, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
believing in any kind of ideas of what happens after death is self-deceiving because it's like believing what life is like on an imagined planet orbiting Alfa star of Centaurus constellation. Zero facts. All of your examples are about this life, which we can know. That's in essence what I was talking about.

Well, we can know something of the afterlife if the Bible speaks truly of it. I think the Bible does speak truly, so I believe I do know something of the afterlife, something I can be sure of. And i don't believe the Bible truly is the word of God simply because it says it is. There are many good reasons outside of the claims of the Bible itself to think the Bible is from God.

Selah.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

Albion said:
Can we say that...or is the point rather that the Gospel will be preached throughout the world? If one person fails to hear it for some reason, I can't believe that this means the Great Commission has been thwarted or is incomplete.

Yes, these are 2 different interpretations. Well, it doesn't change what concerns me within this topic:

What happens to those who haven't heard? I don't care if the gospel reaches each and single person living at a certain instance, what matters that even if one such person ever existed. And we know that there have been many more than one.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

brinny said:
You have heard now, have you not?

Did you mean something else re: the title of your thread?

Yes I implied, what happens to those people who haven't heard? Where are they going? Heaven or hell or it depends?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

Widlast said:
Jesus is the ONLY way, there is "no other name under Heaven, etc..".
To get to God the Father, you MUST go by God the Son.

That being said, how God goes about dealing with the pagan and faithless is not spelled out in detail.
It's rather obvious that damning people who never had the opportunity to know God in life would be rather cruel.
We'll know once it's all over, and I'm absolutely sure that God will treat all involved fairly.
Nobody will be in Hell who does not want to be there.

Thank you. You kind of agree with me, but explain it away in a very vague way...

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

Archivist said:
I had an interesting discussion with a friend the other day about whether Anne Frank will be in heaven or hell. He claimed that if she died a Jew she will not be among the saved. I like to hink otherwise, and in either case I leave the question in God's hands. If she is in heaven, which is where I hope she will be, I look forward to having many conversations with her.

Why Anne Frank? Any other historical figure you'd be interested to meet in the afterlife?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

2PhiloVoid said:
Hi Just_a_Joe,

If the Bible doesn't tell us in an exact and comprehensive way as to "how" God will judge on Judgement Day, then why would it be a surprise for Christians to say "we don't exactly know"? What we DO KNOW is that those who end their life in rejection of Christ, knowingly and willingly, will have absolutely no moral recourse by which to deflect God's evaluations. So ... for those who haven't heard of Christ, then all I CAN say about them, from my personal POV, is that I can only see them as people with a big ? written on their backs. And I think this would be the most accurate (and honest) thing for any Christian to say.

p.s. Some theologians hold to the idea of judgement according to the positive response people have to the amount of light (or truth) that God provides in their lives, and that their faith response, whether focused clearly on Christ or not, is still a faith response in the God who provided the Christ by whom we receive grace, mercy, and the "payment" for our sins. So ... IF ... this is the case, and perhaps it is, perhaps it's not, then more people will "make it" to heaven than we might expect.

2PhiloVoid

Thank you. Makes sense - quite honest. Very vague, though. You're saying we know who's damned for sure, the rest is a big question to us, but not to God. OK. Do you believe that Jesus isn't the only way in the sense that is usually preached in churches? I.e. that unless you hear, repent and believe you're going straight to hell?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 7, 2016

Jonathan Mathews said:
Hello Joe (OP).

This is a great question. It is asked by many people who are wondering how God could send an innocent person to Hell.

The answer is, He doesn't. First, no one is innocent of sin as a spiritual condition. So while we all deserve destruction as corrupted beings, God is merciful. He makes sure every person has an opportunity to experience Him and chose whether to love Him or hate Him.

The question you're asking is really better served by asking "Does God give everyone a choice, and if so, how?"

The answers to these questions, and your original question, come from the Bible...

Romans 1:20
"For his [God's] invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they [people rejecting God] are without excuse."

God says there's enough of His imprint in the Creation alone to "tell the Gospel" to all living creatures.

Another example is John the Baptists and Jesus' first "meeting". They were both babies in their mother's womb, yet John perceived the presence of God and "lept for joy" (Luke 1:41)

This shows God is near to every human, even before they are born, and even unborn babies can, with their own spirit, embrace or despise God, even before they are born.

God can be be close to anyone at anytime because God's Spirit fills the whole earth as we read in Jeremiah 23:24...

"Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD."

BOTTOM LINE: God stretches out his arms towards all humans, surpassing all physical limitations, and offering them His loving embrace. We all get that choice, from the moment God creates our spirit within our body to the point when our spirits leave our bodies.... from conception to death.... and even possibly BEFORE our creation! (Read Ephesians 1:4)

May your searching be richly rewarded!
-Jon

Thank you.

But then, what about Christianity? Because that's not what Christianity teaches. At least in my understanding.

Albion · Oct 7, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Yes, these are 2 different interpretations. Well, it doesn't change what concerns me within this topic:

Fair enough. It was a different poster to whom I wrote what you quoted here.

What happens to those who haven't heard? I don't care if the gospel reaches each and single person living at a certain instance, what matters that even if one such person ever existed. And we know that there have been many more than one.

We do not know exactly what happens to them. The scriptural evidence is, however, that they are lost in their sins...and they do not enter into the afterlife free of sin, I hope we can agree. Why this should affect my life and my relationship with my Savior, I'm not sure, but apparently you think that it should.

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