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only spirits with bodies can function on earth legally?

nephilimiyr

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Does this make sense? no it doesn't. It is nonsense.

First, Man's dominion is delegated from God. When a king gives a governor dominion over a province, the King doesn't need the governor's permission to do anything because all the governor's authority, all his dominion is the king's. All his authority rests in the fact that he represents the king.
And at the sametime the King can not legally break the law just because He wants to do something that the governor does not. If the governor doesn't want to obey the king the king must find anopther that will obey him, simple as that. Plus a king can not, or is not supposed to, break his own decrees and laws. Our God is an honorable, just and lawful God, and I think the scriptures shows this out.

Secondly, the idea that because man has dominion, therefore only entity's with physical bodies can operate 'legally' on earth is a logical non-sequiter. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.
Ok, so what is the reasons for your position?

Thirdly, the bible makes it abundantly clear that Angels are perfectly capable of taking on physical form whenever they need to, thus even if this were true it would be no hinderance to them at all.
Um, maybe this is some kind of a silly retort to the post you are replying to but....SO....

A couple of points regarding other things mentioned in the thread.

The 'serpent' in the garden was probably not a snake. The word serpent in hebrew is nachash and it has three or four different meanings. Its use in Genesis is probably meant to be a kind of double meaning. In one of its meanings (given the context in Genesis) it describes a shinning or glittering being. Given that satan is also described as a serpent in other places in scripture, it is probable that he has some serpentine features.
The point being, in Genesis when it describes him as a serpent, it doesn't mean he was a snake, nor does it mean he posessed or inhabited a snake's body. He was probably there in his true, original form.
Cool, I actually agree with you and this posibility but I fail to understand the importance of the significance of this concerning the question in the OP.

The incarnation of Jesus has nothing to do with his needing a body in order to operate legally on earth. The Holy Spirit operates on earth all the time and yet has never been embodied.
No one is saying the Holy Spirit can't influence man, just that He can't act legally by himself. Hmmm, mabye that is why He is trying to influence man...

The purpose of Jesus' incarnation was so that he could redeem our nature, and thus us, by joining it (and us) to himself. In short, he became like us, so that we could become like him.
I agree, but this holds little significance towards the question of the OP. :)
 
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nephilimiyr

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the armour of our warfare can be used in a spiritual sense,spiritual realm and the natural realm.,

you can be attacked by spiritual forces, that dont have bodies.
That doesn't mean they have legal status. Just because they are attacking you doesn't mean they aren't breaking the law. ;)
 
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Simon_Templar

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I've read Miles Munroe's book Rediscovering The Kingdom and he made a good case for it there. God gave dominion to humans, and only humans to dominate the earth. God limited himself in his influence on earth by giving the job of dominion to Adam. Gods original plan was for him to rule over heaven, and or the spiritual realm while man was supposed to repressent God's Kingdom here on earth. He decreeded that legal action from his kingdom had to be presented by man and man alone.

I understand the view point, however, I think it is not really based on either much in the way of direct evidence, nor is it based on a good understanding of scripture as a whole.

I don't agree with the idea that God limited himself in any legal way at all, nor is there any basis for that idea in scripture, that I'm aware of. I believe this idea has come about as an attempt by people to explain why God does not do things the way they expect he would.

Speaking from my own experience, I was taught a vision of God's activity in which he does everything directly by his own direct intervention. If God is going to do something, it has to be miraculous and supernatural. To this view point, the idea that God works through intermediaries and uses the existing matter and natural laws etc, is often actually seen as a lack of faith.
This view struggles to explain why God doesn't take more direct action in the world. Why doesn't he intervene directly in the ways we expect he would?

I think that this view point is primarily a means of answering that question. God doesn't do what we expect him to do in the way we expect it, because he has limited himself from direct action in our world.

Aside from that issue, I don't think there is good basis in scripture for this view point.

As I began to widen my perspective... or more accurately as my perspective was widened for me... I began to see more and more in the bible, and in history that God is very active in our world, its just that he doesn't work in the ways many of us have been trained to expect. Far more often he works through intermediaries. He works through people, through circumstance, through angels (which many of us have probably encountered without ever knowing it). The fact that most often works indirectly, and through intermediaries and vessels is not because he can't act directly (especially since he does act directly on numerous occasions).

There are three reasons that I can think of, and that I believe why God acts this way most often.

#1 - Because he is a great sovereign and it is part of his glory that he acts through his servants. Many people would think of this as anthropomorphising God... making him out to be like a human king. I disagree, I think it is exactly the opposite.. the glory and pomp of human kings is an attempt to be like God.

#2 - God acts through vessels and intermediaries because he desires them to cooperate in his works. He literally wants to involve them, not for his benefit but for theirs. Like a Father might try and get his son to work with him simply because he wants his son to have part in his work and to benefit from it.

#3 - I believe that God often does not act more directly precisely because he does not want to reveal himself more directly. God desires to be sought after and loved. Frankly, he does not want to force people to acknowledge him because he wants them to seek him out. He wants them to desire him. Not to grudgingly admit.

In none of this does he need or get our permission. He does not, nor has he ever needed it. In fact, even given the legal doctrine you describe, there is no possible way to explain sensibly the idea that God could ever need permission to act. People who hold that view simply don't understand law or authority.
I'm not trying to make ad hominem attacks here, but the idea that people are basically putting forward in this view is that in giving authority to man, God removed it from himself. That is not how authority works, nor is it how law works.

Part of the problem here is that people today are steeped in democratic political philosophy, without ever really understanding the foundations of the ideas they hold.

We think of law as supreme. When a law is enacted, it becomes higher even than those who enacted it. We refer to this as the rule of law. In the United States we have an order of precedence of authority. Congress makes the laws, the president enforces the laws, the judges interpet the laws etc. At the top of all of this is the constitution which is supreme above congress, president, and courts. The constitution itself is essentially a contract. So where does the constitution get its authority?

If its a contract... who made it?

The answer is that the people made it. The constitution gets its authority from the people.

This in turn, was originally based on the idea of sovereignty. Most Americans today never use the word sovereignty and the idea of a true sovereignty has become pretty much foreign to them.

Most people identify the word sovereignty with Kings, and thus they relegate it to some outmoded, even backward social construct.

The association between sovereignty and kings was so strong that in fact kings were often referred to as "the sovereign". However, it was pretty much universally recognized, even by pagans, that King's were not sovereign in and of themselves. Rather, from the very beginning it was recognized that the sovereignty of kings was vested in them by God (or by the gods).

The revolution of political philosophy which eventually produced the United States was the idea that God did not directly vest Kings with sovereignty, but RATHER God vested PEOPLE with sovereignty, and it was the People who then vested the King with sovereignty.

If the sovereignty of the King came from the people, then the rulership of the king was essentially be agreement (or "social contract") with the people. If then the King violated that contract, the people had every right to remove sovereignty from the King and vest it either in some other King, or even in some othery type of government.

This is the foundation upon which America was based. The contrast with the French Revolution has been often used, because it is such a valid and striking contrast. American's did not deny sovereignty, but the French did. American's did not revolt against Sovereignty, but the French did. The results speak for themselves.

Now, the point of all of that is when we come down to today... very few people really understand any of that anymore. For most, the concept of authority exists only based on viewing the workings of the government.

As a result, they believe that authority is transitory, and when one person gives it to another, they give it up themselves etc. We tend to think that it is law itself that gives authority. For most people the ladder of authority stops at the constitution.. if it even gets that high.
So what they think is that the law gives people authority and the law takes authority away.

This is true only at the lowest level.

When we step back and begin to look at the higher levels, what we find is the universal truth that all authority, all law derives from sovereignty and sovereignty can not be given up, nor can it be taken away. When sovereignty confers authority, it loses nothing itself.

When the people of this country vested authority in the constitution, they did not lose their sovereignty. The Constitution itself is still subject to the sovereignty of the people.

Furthermore, it is true to say that we are bound because we entered into a contract... however, that is only true because we recognize that there is a higher law which from which our sovereignty comes and to which we are responsible.

That law in turn derives from a sovereignty which is above it. God is not under his own law. People think that because God is just, this means he is bound by his own law. That is not the case at all. God can change any law he wants any time he wants because he is an absolute sovereignty. There is NO authority above him and NOTHING that binds him.

What people get confused by here is the fact that they conflate God's nature, his being, with a moral law. In making this mistake, people imagine that there is a law which exists above God, to which God is responsible.

This idea is UTTERLY FALSE.

God is not bound by any law or any authority.

When the bible tells us things like, God does not lie, or God is love, or God is holy, God is righteous, God is just...

Those are not moral rules that he adheres to. Those are simply his nature. They are what he is.

Think of it like this... If I say my friend Dan is stubborn, it does not mean at all that there is a moral law, or a rule, or anything above Dan which compells him to be stubborn. It is simply a factor of who he is. It is part of his own character.

As a result... the idea that God even could limit himself by law is simply nonsensical. It CAN'T happen. It is as impossible as God sinning.
 
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Simon_Templar

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And at the sametime the King can not legally break the law just because He wants to do something that the governor does not. If the governor doesn't want to obey the king the king must find anopther that will obey him, simple as that. Plus a king can not, or is not supposed to, break his own decrees and laws. Our God is an honorable, just and lawful God, and I think the scriptures shows this out.


Your example here is based on the concept of a law which is above the king. There is no law above God. Therefor there is no law for him to break.

What the argument in question presents is the idea that when the king puts a governor in place, he loses the right to superceed that governor. This is not true.

Um, maybe this is some kind of a silly retort to the post you are replying to but....SO....


The idea was that you must have a body to intervene on earth by law, and that this prevents spiritual beings from intervening. The reality is spiritual beings can assume bodies at will, thus even if such a restriction did exist, it would not actually prevent said spiritual beings from intervening.


Cool, I actually agree with you and this posibility but I fail to understand the importance of the significance of this concerning the question in the OP.


One of the early posts in the thread suggested that the reason the devil had to posess a snake in order to tempt Eve was because he needed a body in order to tack action on earth.

No one is saying the Holy Spirit can't influence man, just that He can't act legally by himself. Hmmm, mabye that is why He is trying to influence man...


My first question would be.. whats the difference? Influencing someone IS an act. Convicting someone of sin is an act. Miraculous healing, is an act. the list could go on and on.

Or, how about when God intervenes and miraculously stops a bullet from killing someone.. or when he stops someone from being run over by a car, or when he parts a sea and then drowns an entire army in it? how about when he causes plagues to devestate nations, or sends an angel to kill?
How about when God miraculously turns the tide of a battle, or prevents a bomb from killing someone?

Aren't those all actions? Aren't the intervention?

I agree, but this holds little significance towards the question of the OP. :)

again, one of the earlier posters suggested, or at least implied that the reason Jesus became incarnate was to give him legal right to intervene and act on earth.
 
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Simon_Templar

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That doesn't mean they have legal status. Just because they are attacking you doesn't mean they aren't breaking the law. ;)


Out of curiosity, where does the idea of 'legal status' even come from? Growing up I heard a lot of people talk about things based on this idea.. that certain actions would give demons legal right to bother you, or that we could oppose them because they didn't have legal right etc... is there actually any real basis for this idea?

I'd be curious to see what the proponents of this view reference in order to establish it.
 
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nephilimiyr

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Out of curiosity, where does the idea of 'legal status' even come from?
God, He is the original Monarch and the template for all monarchs. If you want to learn about monarchy and it's pure forum, read the Bible.

Growing up I heard a lot of people talk about things based on this idea.. that certain actions would give demons legal right to bother you, or that we could oppose them because they didn't have legal right etc... is there actually any real basis for this idea?
That is a limited understanding you just gave me. I hardly know where to start. Demons don't have legal status over christians. Once a person is saved they are legally considered a citizen of Gods kingdom and no demon has legal authority over a citizen of Heaven.

Remember when Paul claimed to be a citizen of Rome? Remember when he was questioned by the authorities and as soon as he claimed to be a Roman citizen everything changed. Well, once you claim to be a citizen of heaven, and that you really are a citizen, everything changes. Why, because of the authority of who is king. Jesus used this authority of citizenship against the demons and the demons had to obey.

I'd be curious to see what the proponents of this view reference in order to establish it.
OK :)
 
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nephilimiyr

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well then that would mean that the Holy Spirit is here illegally or has a physical body neither of which is true. So bull pockey
Um, no, the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants in the Spirit realm here on earth and that is totally legal for him just as it is total legal for evil spirits, and or demons, to do what they want to do spiritually in the spirit realm.

Because Jesus the man gave the Holy Spirit legal rights on this earth the Holy Spirit can do as He desires as long as He stays within Gods, his own, decrees and kingdom laws.
 
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nephilimiyr

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[/size]

Your example here is based on the concept of a law which is above the king. There is no law above God. Therefor there is no law for him to break.
No, not at all, it's based on a law (decree) that the King himself has made. God as King of heaven made the decree. Again, God gave man dominion, that was the decree. Not only that, He made man in his own image. This takes time to explain but I believe Gods image isn't a thing but a function. God in heaven functions as a king, that is his image, his image is as a king. If we humans are created in his image that means we are created to function as kings.

We are created to function on earth in the capacity of the King of heaven. God is king of heaven, and we are to function in the capacity of the king of heaven here on earth. That is what the main meaning of the image is. If anyone wants to deabte that, I'm game.

What the argument in question presents is the idea that when the king puts a governor in place, he loses the right to superceed that governor. This is not true.
In reality I don't believe that it is that simple even though the concept I'm presenting is very simple. I would suggest you are looking at this from a Western frame of mind, you need to look at this from an Eastern Monarchy frame of mind.

We have to now get back to ownership in conjunction with kingship. The owner at anytime can fire the governor if the governor does not perform the wishes of the owner. Legally, in a monarchy a king is legally able to fire a governor if he refuses to abide by the wishes of the king, as long as the wishes of the king are legal. And, incidently, if the governor is abiding by the wishes of the king, why would the King want to superceed his governors authority?

The idea was that you must have a body to intervene on earth by law, and that this prevents spiritual beings from intervening. The reality is spiritual beings can assume bodies at will, thus even if such a restriction did exist, it would not actually prevent said spiritual beings from intervening.


[/size]

One of the early posts in the thread suggested that the reason the devil had to posess a snake in order to tempt Eve was because he needed a body in order to tack action on earth.

My first question would be.. whats the difference? Influencing someone IS an act. Convicting someone of sin is an act. Miraculous healing, is an act. the list could go on and on.

Or, how about when God intervenes and miraculously stops a bullet from killing someone.. or when he stops someone from being run over by a car, or when he parts a sea and then drowns an entire army in it? how about when he causes plagues to devestate nations, or sends an angel to kill?
How about when God miraculously turns the tide of a battle, or prevents a bomb from killing someone?

Aren't those all actions?

again, one of the earlier posters suggested, or at least implied that the reason Jesus became incarnate was to give him legal right to intervene and act on earth.
This has gotten quite long and I'll take a break or end it right here.

Reps to you ST!
 
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nephilimiyr

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what is your take on when the abyss is opened
I don't understand why that would make a difference to what I'm saying? :scratch:

Otherwise, lets remember that Revelation is very symbolic.
 
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heron

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Coming from Myles Munroe, I would guess it was just his way of explaining a point so it would be useful to readers.

The word "legal" implies that action is possible, but without authority. We have the right to say that something trying to operate illegally needs to stop. That is very powerful information, in dealing with daily oppression and abuse.
 
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heron

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abyss opened...
Lets remember that Revelation is very symbolic.
If not, I want to know where the abyss is!
God as King of heaven made the decree.
I also see it as law of creations, more natural status.

Like rock paper scissors. God beats demons. Demons could beat humans; but humans can claim God's covering, so humans beat demons. If they remember to play the joint-heir card.


 
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nephilimiyr

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Like rock paper scissors. God beats demons. Demons could beat humans; but humans can claim God's covering, so humans beat demons. If they remember to play the joint-heir card.
:thumbsup: LOL, yeah, just like that! :)
 
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