only one way?

[AlyssaChen]

I read somewhere that there is only one way to go to heaven.
But the different christian denominations have different views of how to obtain salvation.
Some believe faith alone is enough to go to heaven.
Some believe you also need to do good work and faith.
And some also believe that you only need good work.
I know that the bible supports the first two believes, I'm not sure about the third one.

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why? What about all the people who don't know about Jesus and the Bible?
Isn't it crucial to think that some people e.g. in Asia or Africa never heard of Jesus and have to go to hell?
That's why the Europeans used to think that they're superior over Africans/SouthAmericans, because they're Christians.
They'd also show the Native Americans the bible, and read it to them, and of course they didn't understand anything, so the Europeans saw it as "rejecting" the bible and killed them.

That was long time ago, but for me as agnostic person, it still bothers me, to think that innocent people have to go to hell.

So I like the belief that good work is enough to go to heaven.
Good work + faith is understandable for me too.
Because if only faith is enough, what about all the "bad" Christians? Those who keep sinning and disrespecting and using God as an excuse, and keep using God, because he forgives them every sin?
Does God judge the people when they die? looking at all their sins, and even if they have faith, can they still get sent to hell?
And can God let people to heaven, who did very good work, didn't sin much, (have different faith) etc?

What about the people, who get forced to sin/not know it is a sin?
with forcing, i mean little kids who have to work as prostitutes.
I remember reading a passage of the bible, where one of the disciple said
The guy who had sex with the little boy had to go to hell, but the boy, who was his sex slave, had to go to hell, too.
Isn't this a little bit too harsh? ://

Does the loving God have no tolerance? only faith in Jesus, nothing else?
Some of my friends are really strict in it, and treat us nonbelievers inferior, and justify it with God...
But how does the Bible support no tolerance with nonbelievers?

Now some comments in general
1. I don't like that the Christian Community is split :// it makes nonbelievers question the Bible, because of the different interpretations of some passages, that led to the denominations.
If I'd become a Christian, I will only call myself a Christian :3 not catholic, lutheran w/e

2. Also, i don't believe the Bible is inerrant. from what i've read so far, everything about Jesus seems to be good :3 but the other parts with the disciples, i believe they're very good people, but they are PEOPLE, no? People make mistakes, get influenced by many things, even Jesus said he's not good, so how can the disciples be flawless...
Some of the things they said, I just think is morally just not right (like the boy sex slave part). Also in the english Bible some translations are just off, and there are even passages in the bible that some anonymous person wrote.
So If i'd become a Christian, I'd believe most of the bible, everything bout jesus and God, but in some parts, I think especially young Christians should read more careful, and not listen to ONE pastor, but research and find many more interpretations and chose the best one :3

3. I also don't like the term "rejecting" the bible. I'm not Christian, but i don't feel like i have ever rejected the bible. Some do, but some are open to Jesus, like me. CHristians keep saying God gave us free will to chose him, but I dont feel like believing in something has to do with free will.
Some chose against Jesus (different faith, or just atheist)
but some just haven't chosen yet, ooor chose, but it just didn't happen.
I feel sometimes really...stupid? for not believing even if i want to?
I know many who feel that way, very open to Jesus, but it just hasn't happened yet? Is it not our time yet to have Jesus in our life? Is it God's will that it's not our time yet...
Idk it's really frustrating, and sometimes there are some really stupid crazy Christians, who instead of converting people, do the opposite, make people hate jesus -_-
But i haven't lost my faith that Jesus and God is something very good, but it's just hard to actually BELIEVE in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit etc etc...

Yeah, just some of my thoughts^^
It's a very long post, and I'd be very happy if you only answer few of my Questions^^ or just comment on some of my thoughts

 

[98cwitr]

1. Me either...

2. The Bible contains only absolute truth. Yes, it was written by men...yet inspired and conserved by God. Therefore, it contains no errors nor contradicts.

3. You just rejected the Bible for what it is by your second point.

No one hates Jesus...they hate hearing the truth and being told they are doing something wrong...

 

[bling]

The bible does not really address the state of those that never learn, just those that accept and reject the Creator’s Love. If anyone is saved is through Christ’s sacrifice, but that does not mean they know this or how God is forgiving their sins and just trust (faith/believe) He is Loving enough to forgive them and take their burden away which they can realize been lifted.

People that never mature enough to sin and accept God’s forgiveness are in a safe condition and would go to heave with just child to wonderful parent type love and never achieve their earthly purpose of Godly type Love. Our objective is to accept God’s forgiveness (after we have sinned) so we can Love “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

 

[Bryanfromiowa]

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why?

i believe they're very good people, but they are PEOPLE, no? People make mistakes, get influenced by many things,

Yes jesus is the only way. We cannot live up to gods law on our own. We all sin even those of us who are basically "good people". Think about it, if you have ever told a seemingly innocent white lie you have broken a commandment and are doomed to hell. God sent jesus to die in our place to pay for our sins. His sacrifice covers all our sins.

As for the people in remote places who have never heard the gospels I'm afraid i don't know there are many opinions but they are only opinions and this side of heaven i'm afriad i won't have a true answer so i chose to trust the lord .

Finally i urge you to pray if you pray sincerly and ask god to reveal the truth to you i believe he will.

 

[Cody2]

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." KJV

Romans 2:15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.."

 

[razeontherock]

Some very good stuff here! Let me start w/ the best:

I know many who feel that way, very open to Jesus, but it just hasn't happened yet? Is it not our time yet to have Jesus in our life? Is it God's will that it's not our time yet...
Idk it's really frustrating,

There are parts we can help you with. But the real deal? G-d reserves the sharing and showing of that to you for Himself - -

because He ENJOYS it!!

After that there will be times you can share this with other believers, sometimes w/o even needing to speak a word you will just "know." Just like John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb at just the sound of Jesus' Mother's voice.

Or you may read just a few words from a total stranger online and totally KNOW they have shared this experience. Or it may be revealed to you through prayer, for no apparent reason other than just to experience and share the experience.

To some people this simply takes the form of a deep-seated Peace. Others may burst out with uncontrollable laughter, as if they were drunk. Others may experience fear, even to the point of shaking. Others may weep like a baby. Some of us go through all that and more.

G-d personally ENJOYS every bit of our company, and LOVES us!

It's virtually impossible for us to really return that sentiment before we have any such first-hand experience, which is only part of the frustration you're expressing here.

I tell you in all Truth, the first thing to recognize is your sincerity, your openness, even the very desire in you for this IS G-d Himself.

I could use bunches of words to try to explain that, but it would only confuse the issue. Instead, let me point out this means it's not a matter of somehow trying to reach far enough to grab G-d from heaven, but a matter of getting His Word in your heart; a much easier task! The route of entry is your mind, but the attitude is all important.

My feeble stab at expressing this in words:

start with the Gospel of John, with the intention of reading straight through to the end. Regardless of the state of your Faith, don't open it until you try your best to ask G-d to speak directly to you as you read, showing you what He wants you to see, sincerely wanting to know the Truth of who He is. Use your own words, no words, it doesn't matter. It's pretty scary when you realize He knows our very thoughts, and can even differentiate those from our intentions. The important thing here is to directthis prayer, and I find it most helpful to wipe away all pre-conceived notions w/ the simplest G-d concept possible, of the power it took to put the Earth beneath our feet, and add to that only what He shows me.

different christian denominations have different views of how to obtain salvation.
Some believe faith alone is enough to go to heaven.
Some believe you also need to do good work and faith.
And some also believe that you only need good work.
I know that the bible supports the first two believes, I'm not sure about the third one.

The Bible never says we "go to heaven." See what I mean about preconceived notions? They don't help. Replacing all that with what the Bible says is a necessary and ongoing element. This is one element of the necessary ingredient of being "childlike," which is the first word in the title of a thread I started in a related outreach forum here. You might like it, and even find it helpful - especially my last longish post and one by Ephraimanesti.

My words don't mean much, but to sort out your question realize time is a variable that enters into the picture here. Over time a true Christian will have good works of some sort. What did Jesus say?

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Seems like a good starting point to me! You get to that pretty quickly in the Gospel of John, third chapter third verse. It also starts "in the beginning," a very good starting point indeed.

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why? What about all the people who don't know about Jesus and the Bible?

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood aspects of modern day Christianity, easily disposed of:

"2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty."

Maybe you'll get a firm grasp on this Truth and be used to save many regular Church-goers! Seriously. That's where the mission field is now, and this is the time. Places we used to send missionaries are now sending missionaries to us. :o

They'd also show the Native Americans the bible, and read it to them, and of course they didn't understand anything,

That's not true! Some tribes knew Jesus and His crucifixion very well, everything but His Name. To our shame, many of them followed Him more closely than the Europeans trying to teach them. Try to remove those pre-conceived limitations we all put on G-d. He's much bigger than we are, or we can possibly imagine Him to be.

And can God let people to heaven, who did very good work, didn't sin much, (have different faith) etc?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Currently it's very popular to pretend Christianity is some exclusive country club membership, where we all sit around and point fingers at who's going to hell. It's not. The best we can fare is to be sure of our own relationship w/ Him, which will change behavior.

I remember reading a passage of the bible, where one of the disciple said
The guy who had sex with the little boy had to go to hell, but the boy, who was his sex slave, had to go to hell, too.
Isn't this a little bit too harsh?

I challenge you on this, to provide book chapter and verse. I'm sticking my neck out to say you can't do it because it's not there. There are some horrible things in the Old Testament that are very difficult to understand. I encourage you to get all your questions on the New Testament answered first, and realize just reading it is different from studying. You can use CF as one resource to get answers to things you can't understand on your own, but do realize you will go through some humbling times of reading well past what you can understand. I don't know anyone who's avoided that!

But how does the Bible support no tolerance with nonbelievers?

It doesn't. G-d loves all mankind SO much, and expects us to learn to, through His power.

I'd believe most of the bible, everything bout jesus and God, but in some parts, I think especially young Christians should read more careful, and not listen to ONE pastor, but research and find many more interpretations and chose the best one

Not a bad guess, but the Truth is more complicated. Original languages and hermeneutics are intellectual pursuits, but the much more important aspect is the river that flows from Genesis through Revelation throughout all time, and shows up in the Gospels as being alive and springing up from the depths of our soul. That's the goal of the intellectual pursuits!

I dont feel like believing in something has to do with free will.
Some chose against Jesus (different faith, or just atheist)
but some just haven't chosen yet, ooor chose, but it just didn't happen.
I feel sometimes really...stupid? for not believing even if i want to?

This goes back to what you said about some parts being translated poorly, and what I said about wiping away pre-conceived notions and becoming child-like. What you will find is the Truth goes deeper than words ever can ...

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good"

 

[jacks]

Hello Raz,

I enjoyed your post and found it very helpful. I was hoping you could expand on one point. Regarding this part:

Originally Posted by AlyssaChen

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why? What about all the people who don't know about Jesus and the Bible?
​

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood aspects of modern day Christianity, easily disposed of:

"2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty."

Could you please expand a bit on how this verse addresses Alyssa's question. Do you mean that the spirit of God is everywhere so all are exposed to it? Sorry to probably overlooking the obvious, sometimes I'm VERY slow!

God Bless,

 

[AlyssaChen]

Thank you for all the answers, I read them all and they were really helpfull I will reply after I've done more research.

 

[AlyssaChen]

Some very good stuff here! Let me start w/ the best:



There are parts we can help you with. But the real deal? G-d reserves the sharing and showing of that to you for Himself - -

because He ENJOYS it!!

After that there will be times you can share this with other believers, sometimes w/o even needing to speak a word you will just "know." Just like John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb at just the sound of Jesus' Mother's voice.

Or you may read just a few words from a total stranger online and totally KNOW they have shared this experience. Or it may be revealed to you through prayer, for no apparent reason other than just to experience and share the experience.

To some people this simply takes the form of a deep-seated Peace. Others may burst out with uncontrollable laughter, as if they were drunk. Others may experience fear, even to the point of shaking. Others may weep like a baby. Some of us go through all that and more.

G-d personally ENJOYS every bit of our company, and LOVES us!

It's virtually impossible for us to really return that sentiment before we have any such first-hand experience, which is only part of the frustration you're expressing here.

I tell you in all Truth, the first thing to recognize is your sincerity, your openness, even the very desire in you for this IS G-d Himself.

I could use bunches of words to try to explain that, but it would only confuse the issue. Instead, let me point out this means it's not a matter of somehow trying to reach far enough to grab G-d from heaven, but a matter of getting His Word in your heart; a much easier task! The route of entry is your mind, but the attitude is all important.

My feeble stab at expressing this in words:

start with the Gospel of John, with the intention of reading straight through to the end. Regardless of the state of your Faith, don't open it until you try your best to ask G-d to speak directly to you as you read, showing you what He wants you to see, sincerely wanting to know the Truth of who He is. Use your own words, no words, it doesn't matter. It's pretty scary when you realize He knows our very thoughts, and can even differentiate those from our intentions. The important thing here is to directthis prayer, and I find it most helpful to wipe away all pre-conceived notions w/ the simplest G-d concept possible, of the power it took to put the Earth beneath our feet, and add to that only what He shows me.

Thank you this is very helpfull^^

The Bible never says we "go to heaven." See what I mean about preconceived notions? They don't help. Replacing all that with what the Bible says is a necessary and ongoing element. This is one element of the necessary ingredient of being "childlike," which is the first word in the title of a thread I started in a related outreach forum here. You might like it, and even find it helpful - especially my last longish post and one by Ephraimanesti.

Oh, would it be better if i correct "go to heaven" with salvation, or i don't understand, can you explain this again, please?

My words don't mean much, but to sort out your question realize time is a variable that enters into the picture here. Over time a true Christian will have good works of some sort. What did Jesus say?

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Seems like a good starting point to me! You get to that pretty quickly in the Gospel of John, third chapter third verse. It also starts "in the beginning," a very good starting point indeed.

Yeah a true christian :3

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood aspects of modern day Christianity, easily disposed of:

"2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty."

Maybe you'll get a firm grasp on this Truth and be used to save many regular Church-goers! Seriously. That's where the mission field is now, and this is the time. Places we used to send missionaries are now sending missionaries to us. :o

Yes, can you please explain this a little bit more?

That's not true! Some tribes knew Jesus and His crucifixion very well, everything but His Name. To our shame, many of them followed Him more closely than the Europeans trying to teach them. Try to remove those pre-conceived limitations we all put on G-d. He's much bigger than we are, or we can possibly imagine Him to be.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I don't say it's God's fault that they acted like they did, it's just stupid arrogant People, who abused the Bible for those acts of course it's not correct, true Christians wouldn't agree with what the Europeans did.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

I like this one

I challenge you on this, to provide book chapter and verse. I'm sticking my neck out to say you can't do it because it's not there. There are some horrible things in the Old Testament that are very difficult to understand. I encourage you to get all your questions on the New Testament answered first, and realize just reading it is different from studying. You can use CF as one resource to get answers to things you can't understand on your own, but do realize you will go through some humbling times of reading well past what you can understand. I don't know anyone who's avoided that!

hmm I think i have to apologize for what I said about the Boy prostitue. I can't find the passage again, but I was so sure I read it.
But there's something related to it that i found.
My source is ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance I quite like this page, because in my eyes it's very informative and is written very neutrally? (sorry for my bad english) They don't state one opinion, but they state many different Christian POVs instead of only one denomination's view, and don't really attack the Church.
anyways

I Corinthians 6:9
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
However, the Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, and James Moffatt translation use the word "catamites," or "boy prostitutes" to describe what the KJV refers to as "effeminate." This is was often a young male who was kept as a sexual partner/slave of an adult male.
If this is the actual meaning of the passage, it is profoundly immoral by today's secular and most religious moral standards because it transfers punishment from a perpetrator guilty of child sexual abuse to his innocent victim.

So I guess it's just another bad translation again?

It doesn't. G-d loves all mankind SO much, and expects us to learn to, through His power.

Yeah, but some Christians that i know, and all of them are Teenagers, are pretty intolerant, almost hating, to other denominations, and of course unbelievers.
But maybe they're just immature? > . >


But thank you for making the time to write this detailed answer :3

 

[razeontherock]

I appreciate you sincerity!

Oh, would it be better if i correct "go to heaven" with salvation, or i don't understand, can you explain this again, please?

Well I didn't do much explaining on that. What I do know is we are to walk one step at a time, and His light is a lamp unto our feet. Clearly your first real "step" is to be born again, and probably my biggest role is to merely point out it really is possible! And as far as I know, it happens through prayerful Bible reading.

Yes, can you please explain this a little bit more?

I see Jacks also asked about this. It is difficult to say w/o coming across as teaching Universalism, as in 'we're all children of god and saved." Which is the same as ridiculing salvation and trampling underfoot Christ's holy sacrifice.

Try this:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful"

That's in the negative. Now in the positive:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I don't say it's God's fault that they acted like they did, it's just stupid arrogant People, who abused the Bible for those acts of course it's not correct, true Christians wouldn't agree with what the Europeans did.

I was pointing out that G-d has always spoken to mankind! And He specifically revealed Jesus to some North American Indian tribes before Europeans ever evangelized them. They had dreams, visions, oral traditions and personal appearances. Same story, including the crucifixion and resurrection! IIRC that was the Cherokee, one of the most expansive, successful and peaceful tribes. You wouldn't normally expect peaceful and successful to go together, but it's almost as powerful a testimony as the resurrection.

I Corinthians 6:9
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
However, the Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, and James Moffatt translation use the word "catamites," or "boy prostitutes" to describe what the KJV refers to as "effeminate." This is was often a young male who was kept as a sexual partner/slave of an adult male.
If this is the actual meaning of the passage, it is profoundly immoral by today's secular and most religious moral standards because it transfers punishment from a perpetrator guilty of child sexual abuse to his innocent victim.

So I guess it's just another bad translation again?

Not that simple. We have a sub-forum here, with a few very vocal promoters of the gay agenda, trying to use interpretations like these to say G-d never said homosexuality is sin. I've engaged them but grown weary of their foolishness, as they can't respond with integrity. I never have gotten to this level you raise, which is that if you use this particular twist of the language then the Bible makes no sense. Effeminate means effeminate; a "lifestyle choice."

In all fairness what you refer to here (whether this is what the Bible really refers to or not) is pederasty, which was anything but an abusive situation. Men weren't seen as being fit for Fatherhood till after 30, so 20 somethings acquiring wealth spent a little mad money on teenage boys they thought were cute. The younger had to very explicitly welcome the advance, with strictly followed customs, and the purpose was to acquire wealth, while it was a status symbol for the older man. If you were still doing this in your 40's you were seen as more than a little weird, and when you became a Father the Mother was herself a teenager. So, all KINDS of problems within that society! Jews rejected the whole thing, so Christianity simultaneously didn't have to address it, and rejected it as well. That went without say! So while this passage does reject pederasty, it's not exclusive to that.

And this is an easy one! There are some really tough passages in the Old Testament, that are there to really challenge us, keeping us from stagnating. Get through all of the New Testament first

Yeah, but some Christians that i know, and all of them are Teenagers, are pretty intolerant, almost hating, to other denominations, and of course unbelievers.
But maybe they're just immature? > . >

This is sad. Immature Spiritually to be sure, but adulthood and even old age is no guarantee of growing in the Lord. Usually what I've seen is G-d reaches the parents through the children! The IRA was supposedly mature adults ...

 

[AlyssaChen]

1. Me either...

2. The Bible contains only absolute truth. Yes, it was written by men...yet inspired and conserved by God. Therefore, it contains no errors nor contradicts.

3. You just rejected the Bible for what it is by your second point.

No one hates Jesus...they hate hearing the truth and being told they are doing something wrong...

to 2.
Maybe not the original Bible? But like I said, there are passages that were added much later by anonymous writers, so idk. But that is just my opinion
3. I didn't reject the Bible as a whole, I rejected its inerrancy. There are liberal Christians who rejected its inerrancy,too but does it mean, they're not true Christians? They still believe in Jesus and still love him, they just don't believe the Bible is flawless and I'm only talking about a very very very small portion of the Bible.

 

[AlyssaChen]

I appreciate you sincerity!



Well I didn't do much explaining on that. What I do know is we are to walk one step at a time, and His light is a lamp unto our feet. Clearly your first real "step" is to be born again, and probably my biggest role is to merely point out it really is possible! And as far as I know, it happens through prayerful Bible reading.



I see Jacks also asked about this. It is difficult to say w/o coming across as teaching Universalism, as in 'we're all children of god and saved." Which is the same as ridiculing salvation and trampling underfoot Christ's holy sacrifice.

Try this:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful"

That's in the negative. Now in the positive:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."



I was pointing out that G-d has always spoken to mankind! And He specifically revealed Jesus to some North American Indian tribes before Europeans ever evangelized them. They had dreams, visions, oral traditions and personal appearances. Same story, including the crucifixion and resurrection! IIRC that was the Cherokee, one of the most expansive, successful and peaceful tribes. You wouldn't normally expect peaceful and successful to go together, but it's almost as powerful a testimony as the resurrection.



Not that simple. We have a sub-forum here, with a few very vocal promoters of the gay agenda, trying to use interpretations like these to say G-d never said homosexuality is sin. I've engaged them but grown weary of their foolishness, as they can't respond with integrity. I never have gotten to this level you raise, which is that if you use this particular twist of the language then the Bible makes no sense. Effeminate means effeminate; a "lifestyle choice."

In all fairness what you refer to here (whether this is what the Bible really refers to or not) is pederasty, which was anything but an abusive situation. Men weren't seen as being fit for Fatherhood till after 30, so 20 somethings acquiring wealth spent a little mad money on teenage boys they thought were cute. The younger had to very explicitly welcome the advance, with strictly followed customs, and the purpose was to acquire wealth, while it was a status symbol for the older man. If you were still doing this in your 40's you were seen as more than a little weird, and when you became a Father the Mother was herself a teenager. So, all KINDS of problems within that society! Jews rejected the whole thing, so Christianity simultaneously didn't have to address it, and rejected it as well. That went without say! So while this passage does reject pederasty, it's not exclusive to that.

And this is an easy one! There are some really tough passages in the Old Testament, that are there to really challenge us, keeping us from stagnating. Get through all of the New Testament first



This is sad. Immature Spiritually to be sure, but adulthood and even old age is no guarantee of growing in the Lord. Usually what I've seen is G-d reaches the parents through the children! The IRA was supposedly mature adults ...

Thank you that helped alot :3 I think you answered all of my questions^^ I'll read the New Testament

 

[aiki]

I read somewhere that there is only one way to go to heaven.
But the different christian denominations have different views of how to obtain salvation.
Some believe faith alone is enough to go to heaven.
Some believe you also need to do good work and faith.
And some also believe that you only need good work.
I know that the bible supports the first two believes, I'm not sure about the third one.

The Bible makes it pretty clear how salvation is obtained:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8, 9)

Real faith, however, always evidences itself in one's behavior. If I truly believe that the chair in front of me will bear my weight, then I'll sit down on it; if I believe the bus will take me to my desired destination, then I'll get on it; if I believe its going to rain, I'll take my umbrella with me when I go outside; if I believe that Jesus saved me from my sins and that he is God in the flesh, then my behaviour will reflect that belief. This is why the apostle James wrote:

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (Ja. 2:17)

But good works do not save you; they are not a part of how one is saved, only the inevitable result of one's salvation.

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why? What about all the people who don't know about Jesus and the Bible?
Isn't it crucial to think that some people e.g. in Asia or Africa never heard of Jesus and have to go to hell?
That's why the Europeans used to think that they're superior over Africans/SouthAmericans, because they're Christians.
They'd also show the Native Americans the bible, and read it to them, and of course they didn't understand anything, so the Europeans saw it as "rejecting" the bible and killed them.

The Bible is crystal clear on this matter. As some have already noted, Jesus excludes all other "paths" to God but himself.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Concerning Jesus the apostle Peter proclaimed,

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

What about those who are lost and have never heard the gospel? The Bible teaches that anyone who truly desires to know God will do so. God will move heaven and earth, if necessary, to deliver to those who want to know Him the Good News of salvation in Christ Jesus. And this is the story many people tell. There are some truly amazing tales of the lengths God has gone to in order to share the Gospel with those who were hungry to know Him.

There is a fundamental knowledge or awareness of the Creator that all people share.

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

As this passage tells us, the majority of people suppress the knowledge of God because it interferes with what they want to do. It is for this reason that God can justly condemn all those who have never heard the gospel and who die in their sins. They had at the very least a basic knowledge of their Creator revealed to them in Creation and in their conscience, but they did not choose to broaden and deepen that knowledge. Instead, most of humanity reject their Maker in favor of self-deification.

That was long time ago, but for me as agnostic person, it still bothers me, to think that innocent people have to go to hell.

There are no innocent people. Hell is occupied only by the guilty.

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;There is none who does good, no, not one."

So I like the belief that good work is enough to go to heaven.
Good work + faith is understandable for me too.
Because if only faith is enough, what about all the "bad" Christians? Those who keep sinning and disrespecting and using God as an excuse, and keep using God, because he forgives them every sin?
Does God judge the people when they die? looking at all their sins, and even if they have faith, can they still get sent to hell?
And can God let people to heaven, who did very good work, didn't sin much, (have different faith) etc?

Matthew 7:17-23
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

The required standard for entrance into heaven isn't the best person you know, but the perfect, sinless holiness of God Himself. Against this standard not one single person save Christ the perfect Lamb of God succeeds. As the Bible explains,

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

No one enters heaven on their own merits. All of us get their solely because of the gracious mercy and love of our Creator. It is pride that urges us to think we can somehow deserve God's favor. As far as God is concerned, we all of us deserve eternal damnation. Fortunately, God has made a way for us to escape what we deserve: Jesus Christ, the Saviour, who paid our sin-debt in full on the cross.

Does the loving God have no tolerance? only faith in Jesus, nothing else?
Some of my friends are really strict in it, and treat us nonbelievers inferior, and justify it with God...
But how does the Bible support no tolerance with nonbelievers?

If God had no tolerance, we'd all be in hell right now...His tolerance, or patience, is not unending, however. Eventually, a holy God must judge sin.

Your friends have no reason to look down on you. They did nothing to save themselves except take the gift of salvation God has offered to them.

2. Also, i don't believe the Bible is inerrant. from what i've read so far, everything about Jesus seems to be good :3 but the other parts with the disciples, i believe they're very good people, but they are PEOPLE, no? People make mistakes, get influenced by many things, even Jesus said he's not good, so how can the disciples be flawless...

The Bible doesn't represent the disciples as "flawless."

If you don't believe the Bible is inerrant, why trust it at all? How do you decide which parts aren't mistaken and which one's are?

Some of the things they said, I just think is morally just not right (like the boy sex slave part). Also in the english Bible some translations are just off, and there are even passages in the bible that some anonymous person wrote.
So If i'd become a Christian, I'd believe most of the bible, everything bout jesus and God, but in some parts, I think especially young Christians should read more careful, and not listen to ONE pastor, but research and find many more interpretations and chose the best one :3

I see a great deal of ignorance in this last bit. You sound like you've been patching together a perspective on the Bible that is all second-hand.

3. I also don't like the term "rejecting" the bible. I'm not Christian, but i don't feel like i have ever rejected the bible. Some do, but some are open to Jesus, like me. CHristians keep saying God gave us free will to chose him, but I dont feel like believing in something has to do with free will.

What does it have to do with, then? Were you forced to believe everything you do?

Some chose against Jesus (different faith, or just atheist)
but some just haven't chosen yet, ooor chose, but it just didn't happen.

What does "it just doesn't happen" mean?

I feel sometimes really...stupid? for not believing even if i want to?
I know many who feel that way, very open to Jesus, but it just hasn't happened yet? Is it not our time yet to have Jesus in our life? Is it God's will that it's not our time yet...

Nope. You just aren't yet willing to take God on His terms.

You're making the mistake of thinking you have lots of time to choose Him. You may not live to see the end of the week; you just don't know. Every day that passes with you resisting God's offer is another day you spend under His wrathful judgment. There is no safe, neutral ground where the undecided can stand. You're either for God or against Him.

Idk it's really frustrating, and sometimes there are some really stupid crazy Christians, who instead of converting people, do the opposite, make people hate jesus -_-

Only God converts people. And stupid, crazy Christians aren't going to be a good excuse for the unconverted person who stands before God to give an account of why they have rejected His offer of salvation. God offers Himself, not stupid, crazy Christians.

But i haven't lost my faith that Jesus and God is something very good, but it's just hard to actually BELIEVE in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit etc etc...

Its so hard, in fact, that if God doesn't save you, you won't ever be saved.

Selah.

 

[Emmy]

Dear AlyssaChen. God is Love, and love is what God wants from us, selfless and unconditional. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, they say all what God told us in His 10 Commandments. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) love our neighbour as ourselves. Jesus did go on to say: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Jesus also told us: if you love me you will follow my Commandments." As you see, Love is of greatest importance, Love for God and for each other. We start by treating all we know, or meet, as we would like to be treated, with kindness, friendliness, forgiveness, a helping hand where needed, no envy or yealousy. Soon we will find that people notice and are the same to us. Love will bring forth love, and kindness will grow and grow. God will notice and we will be doing God`s Will. Jesus will give us His Love, His Joy and His Peace to share with each other. Life will be filled with Joy. We will never know until we really try to show our love and courtesy to all we meet and know. Jesus`s Way is the only true and benevolent way, Jesus is the Way. I say this humbly and with love, AlyssaChen. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[twob4me]

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[Sketcher]

I read somewhere that there is only one way to go to heaven.
But the different christian denominations have different views of how to obtain salvation.
Some believe faith alone is enough to go to heaven.
Some believe you also need to do good work and faith.
And some also believe that you only need good work.
I know that the bible supports the first two believes, I'm not sure about the third one.

The third one is outright heresy. The second one is a misinterpretation of the first one, which is correct. The faith that saves will produce good works. What Jesus did is sufficient to save those who believe in him.

I know Jesus mentioned that the only way to go to heaven is through him. But why? What about all the people who don't know about Jesus and the Bible?
Isn't it crucial to think that some people e.g. in Asia or Africa never heard of Jesus and have to go to hell?
That's why the Europeans used to think that they're superior over Africans/SouthAmericans, because they're Christians.
They'd also show the Native Americans the bible, and read it to them, and of course they didn't understand anything, so the Europeans saw it as "rejecting" the bible and killed them.

The Gospel reached Africa almost from the beginning of Christianity, actually. There were Jews from North Africa and Ethiopia who heard the Good News, and those who believed brought it back with them. And the Apostles got as far east as India, according to tradition. Missions were unfortunately stymied after that.

The one story I've heard of that corroborates what you're saying about Native Americans would be the Spanish encounter with the Incas, which was disastrous. That priest was NOT a diplomat. And this isn't really an excuse, but it helps to understand that they were all being held prisoner and thought they were going to be killed, so they were literally in a panic. Sapa Inca's intentions were not much better, which were to castrate them and then take their horses for breeding. But either way, it's not the way representatives of the Early Church would have handled it. They died for their faith, rather than killing for it.

That was long time ago, but for me as agnostic person, it still bothers me, to think that innocent people have to go to hell.

In our faith, no one is innocent. Everyone at some point has been a liar, or a cheat, or worse.

So I like the belief that good work is enough to go to heaven.
Good work + faith is understandable for me too.
Because if only faith is enough, what about all the "bad" Christians? Those who keep sinning and disrespecting and using God as an excuse, and keep using God, because he forgives them every sin?
Does God judge the people when they die? looking at all their sins, and even if they have faith, can they still get sent to hell?

There's a couple different schools of thought on this. Some believe that if you're a bad Christian, you go to Hell. Some believe that if you're a bad Christian, you're among the poorest people in Heaven instead. I believe the latter, based on Scripture.

Besides, it's not as if God doesn't discipline Christians in this lifetime.

And can God let people to heaven, who did very good work, didn't sin much, (have different faith) etc?

No, because no amount of good works can offset sin. God is holy, sin cannot be tolerated. It must be washed away, or it must never have come into being in the first place. Think about it, if those other ways were enough to get people into Heaven, why send Jesus Christ at all? His suffering and death would have been for nothing, which means his coming to Earth would also have been for nothing; a simple prophet could have taught what he taught and even do the same miracles because God's Spirit would have rested on him. But only Christ could have been the pure and blameless sacrificial lamb for us all. Only he could lay down his life only to take it up again.

What about the people, who get forced to sin/not know it is a sin?
with forcing, i mean little kids who have to work as prostitutes.

God knows their hearts, and culpability would depend on what the deed is and where each person is at in this case. But let me give you another horrid example of child abuse - child soldiers. They do unspeakable horrors to unarmed civilians all the time. Should they not be held accountable for their sins, even though they're only children and were forced into their position? Looking at some of the people with hooks instead of hands, I would think not.

I remember reading a passage of the bible, where one of the disciple said
The guy who had sex with the little boy had to go to hell, but the boy, who was his sex slave, had to go to hell, too.
Isn't this a little bit too harsh? ://

That does sound harsh, but where in the Bible are you reading this? I don't recognize it.

1. I don't like that the Christian Community is split :// it makes nonbelievers question the Bible, because of the different interpretations of some passages, that led to the denominations.
If I'd become a Christian, I will only call myself a Christian :3 not catholic, lutheran w/e

That's fine.

2. Also, i don't believe the Bible is inerrant. from what i've read so far, everything about Jesus seems to be good :3 but the other parts with the disciples, i believe they're very good people, but they are PEOPLE, no? People make mistakes, get influenced by many things, even Jesus said he's not good, so how can the disciples be flawless...
Some of the things they said, I just think is morally just not right (like the boy sex slave part). Also in the english Bible some translations are just off, and there are even passages in the bible that some anonymous person wrote.
So If i'd become a Christian, I'd believe most of the bible, everything bout jesus and God, but in some parts, I think especially young Christians should read more careful, and not listen to ONE pastor, but research and find many more interpretations and chose the best one :3

Well, that boy story, again, is not in there that I recall. But Scripture has a very consistent and good message, and you don't have to believe it all at once, but you should be open to believing it all. And I actually agree with you that some parts need to be handled carefully. Context is very important, and many of the arguments used against God based on Bible stories are ignorant of the context.

Also, when it comes to English translations, you've got plenty of choices.

3. I also don't like the term "rejecting" the bible. I'm not Christian, but i don't feel like i have ever rejected the bible. Some do, but some are open to Jesus, like me. CHristians keep saying God gave us free will to chose him, but I dont feel like believing in something has to do with free will.
Some chose against Jesus (different faith, or just atheist)
but some just haven't chosen yet, ooor chose, but it just didn't happen.
I feel sometimes really...stupid? for not believing even if i want to?
I know many who feel that way, very open to Jesus, but it just hasn't happened yet? Is it not our time yet to have Jesus in our life? Is it God's will that it's not our time yet...
Idk it's really frustrating, and sometimes there are some really stupid crazy Christians, who instead of converting people, do the opposite, make people hate jesus -_-
But i haven't lost my faith that Jesus and God is something very good, but it's just hard to actually BELIEVE in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit etc etc...

Some of what some Christians say about some unbelievers is not accurate about other unbelievers. Fair enough.