Only in American Management...

JoyJuice

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Private Company. They can do what they want. Besides, the Union is what is destroying the Company, and most of upper management is not in the union. Its the perks of not trying to stranglehold your employers.
No it's not private.

And it by no means the Union has anything to do with their mismanagement. The Unions are not killing them. as Toyota, which some plants are unionized is killing the America manufacturers by offering better and more diverse products with far better customer service.

The Union thing is a misnomer used by the auto factory to specifically get out of their contracts...period.
 
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utdbear

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No it's not private.

And it by no means the Union has anything to do with their mismanagement. The Unions are not killing them. as Toyota, which some plants are unionized is killing the America manufacturers by offering better and more diverse products with far better customer service.

The Union thing is a misnomer used by the auto factory to specifically get out of their contracts...period.
Can you tell me the number of Toyota vehicles produced by unions?
 
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JoyJuice

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Can you tell me the number of Toyota vehicles produced by unions?
Can't tell you. I know there are plants on the west coast that are unionized, as well as Toyota in Japan.

The union is not the problem at Ford or other American automakers, it's the arrogance of management.
 
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utdbear

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2. The Corolla and the Tacoma pickup. All others are manufactured either in Japan or in America with no union presence in either case. Nissan and Honda also have no union presence, and that is a huge reason why they're making 1800 and 1400 per vehicle respectively instead of losing 1400 per vehicle, like Ford.
 
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JoyJuice

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2. The Corolla and the Tacoma pickup. All others are manufactured either in Japan or in America with no union presence in either case. Nissan and Honda also have no union presence, and that is a huge reason why they're making 1800 and 1400 per vehicle respectively instead of losing 1400 per vehicle, like Ford.
But yet the disparity has nothing to do with union packages.
I know for example Toyota's compensation for non union autoworkers is equal or even in some cases more than the unionized shops.

Perhaps the success at Toyota may be that in Japan management:
"devotion to the company rather than the individual extends beyond the factory floor all the way to the CEO's office. Consider the issue of executive pay.

"U.S. CEOs' income is 550 times greater than the average employee's," says Abegglen. Citing figures from compensation consultants Tower Perrin, he says that in Japan, "the multiple is about 10 or 11 - almost identical to Germany."
AUTOWEEK
..or
"Contrast that to Japan. On average, CEOs pull down $200,000 to $300,000 -- a fraction of what their U.S. counterparts make. Then again, Japanese CEOs rarely get fired by boards and can usually count on cushy sinecures as chairman or corporate adviser until they transfer to the corner office in the sky.
HERE
In Japan these guys at FORD would have been shown the door a long time ago, rather than being on the end of a possible bonus for getting paid 100 times over those who are kicking their behinds, all because they are for running a business in the ground.

It aint the union, it is the management.
 
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ElvisFan42

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2. The Corolla and the Tacoma pickup. All others are manufactured either in Japan or in America with no union presence in either case. Nissan and Honda also have no union presence, and that is a huge reason why they're making 1800 and 1400 per vehicle respectively instead of losing 1400 per vehicle, like Ford.
That's odd, the Corolla is one of thier better quality vehicles and the Tacoma is one of thier lowest quailty vehicles. Nissan has no where near the profitability of Toyota nor the quality of Toyota or Honda. Considering Toyota uses union employees on two of it's lines, it sort of blows the whole "it's the union" theory out of the water. Why can Toyota have profits and quality with a union where Nissan and Honda can't come close with no union? Why is Chrysler up? They have as much union as Ford and GM.
 
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utdbear

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Nissan makes more per car than Toyota and Honda both. Having 2 cars on union lines won't sink a company, but having your whole line on unions will. Ask GM or Ford, who's having to pay out the yin yang for workers at closed plants.

And I think you have it flip flopped. The Corolla is a piece of trash. Tacoma is OK. Toyota's quality is in the Tundra, Camry, and it's SUVs.
 
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ElvisFan42

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Nissan makes more per car than Toyota and Honda both. Having 2 cars on union lines won't sink a company, but having your whole line on unions will. Ask GM or Ford, who's having to pay out the yin yang for workers at closed plants.

And I think you have it flip flopped. The Corolla is a piece of trash. Tacoma is OK. Toyota's quality is in the Tundra, Camry, and it's SUVs.
Why is GM still number one then? Why is Nissan not making the money GM, Ford or Toyota makes? You neglect that Toyota operates under state-funded tax breaks in it's US manufacturing plants, something GM and Ford don't get. Instead, it's simply the unions as the sole reason there is trouble. It would be nice if all problems had such a simple solution.

Accordin to JD Powers (and nearly every other source) the Corolla gets 4.5 out of 5 and the Tacoma gets 3.5 out of 5 for quality ratings. Toyota's trucks are not thier quality pieces, never have been.

I have to wonder why the same group of people that defend CEO salaries and oil company profits are the same ones to bash union workers making a living. The right always cites employee's insurance benefits, but puts the blame on the employees, not the insurance companies.
 
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utdbear

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Why is GM still number one then? Why is Nissan not making the money GM, Ford or Toyota makes? You neglect that Toyota operates under state-funded tax breaks in it's US manufacturing plants, something GM and Ford don't get. Instead, it's simply the unions as the sole reason there is trouble. It would be nice if all problems had such a simple solution.

Accordin to JD Powers (and nearly every other source) the Corolla gets 4.5 out of 5 and the Tacoma gets 3.5 out of 5 for quality ratings. Toyota's trucks are not thier quality pieces, never have been.

I have to wonder why the same group of people that defend CEO salaries and oil company profits are the same ones to bash union workers making a living. The right always cites employee's insurance benefits, but puts the blame on the employees, not the insurance companies.
Because GM sells more vehicles than Nissan. Just because you sell more cars doesn't mean you make more money(Income - Expenses = Net Profit). GM loses around $300 per car manufactured, Ford $1200. Nissan and Honda and Toyota average $1400 to $1800 profit per car. Nissan is making far more money than GM and Ford(you didn't see Nissan bludgeoning 12.7 billion last year did you?). And defending CEO salaries has nothing to do with why a company is going under. Losing hundreds of dollars per car because of labor costs has EVERYTHING to do with why a company is going under.
 
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ElvisFan42

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Because GM sells more vehicles than Nissan. Just because you sell more cars doesn't mean you make more money(Income - Expenses = Net Profit). GM loses around $300 per car manufactured, Ford $1200. Nissan and Honda and Toyota average $1400 to $1800 profit per car. Nissan is making far more money than GM and Ford(you didn't see Nissan bludgeoning 12.7 billion last year did you?). And defending CEO salaries has nothing to do with why a company is going under. Losing hundreds of dollars per car because of labor costs has EVERYTHING to do with why a company is going under.
So losing money because of CEO and other executive salaries has nothing to do with it? Outrageous insurance costs have nothing to do with it? Poor management and choices have nothing to do with it? You make it sound like union employees are the sole reason for the problem which is pure garbage. That's not to say the UAW has not made unreasonable demands, but they are hardly the sole source of Ford's problems.

I love the way you list this, Ford and GM lose per vehicle, Toyata and Nissan profit per vehicle. If Ford and GM only lose, how are they making any money?
 
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JoyJuice

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Why Toyota is Better than GM and Ford

James P. Womack explains how Toyota beat GM and Ford. Unlike many, he does not cite aging factories, pension obligations, or unions as the cause. Instead, Toyota gained its advantage by following the lean business strategy he and others identified in the 1990s :


Why Toyota Won, by James P. Womack, Commentary, WSJ: ...Clearly MoTown needs a new approach and it's natural in the car industry to think that the secret must be a killer model -- a Toyota Prius hybrid or some other concept to replace the big pickups and SUVs that floated the American firms for 15 years. Actually, it's not a new car model that's needed. It's a new business model. Toyota is leading the charge against Detroit -- largely from inside the U.S. -- with a fundamentally different approach to business that my MIT research team in the 1990s labeled "lean" enterprise. Compared with these Toyota practices, GM and Ford's approach has five fatal weaknesses:​
• GM and Ford can't design vehicles that Americans want to pay "Toyota money" for. And this is not a matter of bad bets on product concepts or dumb engineers. It's a matter of Toyota's better engineering system, using simple concepts like chief engineers with real responsibility for products, concurrent and simultaneous engineering practices, and sophisticated knowledge capture methods. The Prius is... the likely result of a development system that tries out many approaches to every problem, then gets the winning concept to the customer very quickly with low engineering cost, low manufacturing cost, and near perfect quality. (That's not to say that Toyota can't produce a dud ...but the likelihood of producing winners is higher ...)​
• GM and Ford are clueless as to how to work with their suppliers. Sometimes they try to crush their bones -- which only works when the suppliers have any profits to squeeze, and few currently do. Then they embrace contentless cooperation that ... fails to produce lower costs, higher quality, or new and better technology. Toyota, by contrast, is getting brilliant results and lower prices from American suppliers like Delphi while also giving suppliers adequate profit margins. How? By relentlessly analyzing every step in their shared design and production process to take out the waste and put in the quality.​
• GM and Ford have miasmic management cultures. These turn competent people into Dilberts. By contrast, Toyota does a brilliant job of making one person responsible for every key business process... A Dilbert-free environment naturally emerges, but not because everyone has received cultural training to spur teamwork. Rather, if ordinary people -- Dilberts even -- are put in a great business process they become great team players.​
• GM and Ford cling to their wide range of brands: Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saab, GMC, and Hummer at GM; Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, Aston Martin, and Range Rover at Ford. And they still talk about brand revitalization as the way ahead. Yet the most successful car companies in the world -- Toyota and BMW -- have only two or three brands. And this is not an accident. Indeed, it's hard to see how any modern-day car maker can support more than three truly distinctive brands... A plethora of brands that can't pull their weight drains management energy and company coffers.​
• GM and Ford still treat customers as strangers engaged in one-time transactions. Toyota's Lexus, by contrast, has created a new and better customer experience. Customers cheerfully pay more for the car and the service and then come back for more cars because they love the treatment. ...​
But note: I haven't mentioned the creaky factories, vast pension obligations, and cranky unions that commentators ... seem obsessed with. In fact, Ford and GM's factories are now good enough to compete in terms of labor productivity and quality. They just can't support ... pension and healthcare benefits for retirees as the companies continue to shrink. Union and management both know this, yet ... their conversation has broken down. With zero confidence that management knows what it is doing, a union will try to get what it can now rather than look at the long term. In consequence, unless GM and Ford soon present a plausible path to a brighter future ... there may be no long term.​
There is no mystery about the lean business model. All of the elements are operating in this country every day at Toyota and at many other American companies in a range of industries. What is mysterious is why GM and Ford can't embrace it. And what is dismaying is how many of their employees are likely to suffer if they don't. But finally, what is reassuring for the country is that if GM and Ford can't fix their problems, they will simply be replaced by new players in America, led by Toyota, who can.​
I mean you have to ask yourself, given all the marketing and advertisement the big 3 American companies sink billions into, when was the last time you seen the Japanese companies have to advertise a hybrid?

The answer is they don't have too, they sell themselves.

Once again and sadly the American manufacturers are behind the curve.
 
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utdbear

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So losing money because of CEO and other executive salaries has nothing to do with it? Outrageous insurance costs have nothing to do with it? Poor management and choices have nothing to do with it? You make it sound like union employees are the sole reason for the problem which is pure garbage. That's not to say the UAW has not made unreasonable demands, but they are hardly the sole source of Ford's problems.

I love the way you list this, Ford and GM lose per vehicle, Toyata and Nissan profit per vehicle. If Ford and GM only lose, how are they making any money?
You do realize that GM and Ford are NOT making any money correct? Posting a 12.7 billion dollar loss = Not making money. Since CEO salaries are obviously a problem for you, lets assume we cut all executive salaries to 0. Now, instead of a 12.7 billion dollar loss, there's a 12.5 billion dollar loss. Get it? CEO salaries don't do squat in the grand scheme of things. Outrageous salaries, outrageous costs, and outrageous working conditions caused the problem at Ford, which can be directly attributed to the UAW. I honestly would not be saddened if Ford went under. I think it would be a testament to this country of the cancer that the modern workers union has become. SBC almost took a major step a couple of years ago in that direction, one they should have taken but stepped back at the last minute, and now another one (the UAW) is going to suck a fine American auto company dry and run it into the ground.

I do have another beef, you speak much of how extravagant CEO salaries are, why haven't you spoken of Union CEO salaries? You do know that they are as extravagant, if not more than just about anybody. Why are they being spared here?
 
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ElvisFan42

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You do realize that GM and Ford are NOT making any money correct? Posting a 12.7 billion dollar loss = Not making money.

That's not what it means at all. If you don't understand what a "loss" means in the business world, maybe this will help. Last year when people were screaming the Bush admin cut funding for veterans benefits, the right was defending him by saying it wasn't a cut, it was just less money than the previous year.


Since CEO salaries are obviously a problem for you

Please show me where I said I had a problem with CEO's salaries. In fact, if you read the thread, I defended the salaries.

lets assume we cut all executive salaries to 0. Now, instead of a 12.7 billion dollar loss, there's a 12.5 billion dollar loss.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Upper management payroll, marketing payroll, manufacturing payroll?

I honestly would not be saddened if Ford went under. I think it would be a testament to this country of the cancer that the modern workers union has become. SBC almost took a major step a couple of years ago in that direction, one they should have taken but stepped back at the last minute, and now another one (the UAW) is going to suck a fine American auto company dry and run it into the ground.

I'm always amazed that people that claim to be pro-American don't give a crap about American workers. People want top pay for what they do, but want a bargain when they shop as if no one else deserves good pay. Let's not even get into the poor conditions employees in the rest of the world work under.

I do have another beef, you speak much of how extravagant CEO salaries are, why haven't you spoken of Union CEO salaries? You do know that they are as extravagant, if not more than just about anybody. Why are they being spared here?

I didn't speak of how extravagant they are, I simply said they are part of the equation.
 
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