One way or more than one way? This is the question!

Alla27 said:

This one way is to follow Jesus Christ means:
1) to believe that I am sinner and do not deserve to go to heaven
2)to confess that I am a sinner and do not deserve to go to heaven
3)to accept that I need a savior and that Jesus Christ is that savior
4) to repent and ask for forgiveness.
At this point a person becomes born again and that is why he or she does good works. This person also does good works because he or she loves Jesus and wants to please Him.

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Alla27 said:

So, please, let me know if I understood you correctly that there is only one way to enter Father's presence and it means to do four things you and I listed above.

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Alla27 said:

But I would also like to have an answer to my question.

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Hi, Alla What I wrote, above, was meant to supply you with things which can answer your questions. They can be applied to how one might answer your questions.

Anyway . . . I'll offer as simply as I do, now > about your question, above, about doing four things to follow Jesus >

I would say yes to all four things listed above. But our Apostle Paul does say "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, there is trusting included . . . and trusting is not only for getting forgiven and reconciled with God. There is trusting Jesus to be our Lord. And this brings us to things I offered, above.

And yes the reason we do good works needs to be because we love Jesus.

But we also need to submit to God, so He is personally guiding us in His peace > which I offered, above > Colossians 3:15, and so we are relating as family in Jesus . . . not as isolated heros earning our way to becoming worthy to rule separate planets. But we share as family < this is included in how we become because of loving Jesus who is our Groom.

Alla27 said:

1)I am born in Americas in times when Jesus is walking on earth. I never heard about Him and about His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?

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Basically you are asking the "What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus?" question. All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?

Alla27 said:

How many ways are there to enter God Father's presence according to the Bible? Is the only one way or are there more than one way?

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How are you defining "[the] Father's presence"?

Because, in a rather significant sense, all things are in God's presence since God is omnipresent.

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

My question is this:
Let's pretend that
1)I am born in Americas in times when Jesus is walking on earth. I never heard about Him and about His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
2)I am born in the 1st century BC in Australia. I never heard about Christ. I never heard His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
3)I am born in 14th century AD on an little island where nobody ever heard about Christ and His gospel. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
4) I am born in Saudi Arabia in 21th century. I am 15 years old. I was killed at this age. I never heard the gospel of Christ. I don't know what it means to follow Christ. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?

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This is a common question, and, I think, a good one.

The answer is in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the judgment of "the nations", which in the Jewish worldview was all the nations except Israel. If you read it you'll see the criteria for judgment and the two possible outcomes of that judgment.

Alla27 said:

Jane_Doe gave an answer.
I will kind of repeat what she said. "We are saved BY GRACE after ALL we can DO" means this:
Example, Jesus wants me to forgive my offenders. This IS HIS WILL. If I am true disciple of Christ I want to do what He wants me to do. But can I do it? Can I forgive my offender? Can I be like Christ? Christ who can forgive those who offend Him?
I find it is very hard sometimes to be like Christ. It is very hard sometimes to follow Him. It is hard sometimes to forgive. But I want to do it any way. I am trying and trying and trying to forgive and I feel that I have some progress in my process of forgiving but it is not enough. I did ALL I could to OBEY Christ's will to forgive but I feel that I am failing.
Jesus looks at me with a smile and says:" Oh, poor child. She tries so hard to be like Me. She does ALL she can to be like Me. But she can't. But I don't need her to be perfect. The point is that she has a desire and she tries. Her hard work will never make her whole and clean from her IMPERFECTION(sins). That is why I will save her BY MY GRACE. I will show her My MERCY and I will show My MERCY to all those who WANT to DO MY WILL.

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I see where you are coming from. By definition, grace is showing mercy to someone who does not deserve it.

Alla27 said:

So, either
1)Jesus Christ did not die for ALL but only for the lucky ones. the lucky ones who had an opportunity to ACCEPT Christ.
Or,
2) if they can enter Father's presence without Christ then Jesus Christ is NOT the ONLY way.

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Hi, Alla I offered a scripture which I think can be used to answer this >

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (in Romans 8:9)

I understand this does mean that if a person does not have the Spirit of Jesus, then the person can not spend eternity with God in Heaven. And this includes those who have never heard of Jesus.

But this does not mean that Jesus did not die for any and all people. He did. We can understand this from 1 John 2:2.

So, He died so there is the potential for anyone to come to Him, even if ones never hear of Him. Also - - by dying, Jesus has opened our New Covenant, which includes how we pray blessing to any and all people > 1 Timothy 2:1-4. So, even if people do not ever hear of Jesus, our prayer for them . . . wherever they are . . . can get them blessed in some ways, if not with salvation; and this blessing comes through Jesus shedding His blood to bring the New Covenant which includes how even evil people are blessed in some way.

Our Apostle Paul says something which I feel helps to support this > 1 Timothy 4:10.

So, there is New Covenant good for each and every human, even if ones never hear of Jesus and never get saved.

So, I do not agree with either your 1) or 2), above, but I believe that the death of Jesus is already now doing some good for any and every person. And this, "of course", can result in ones hearing and being saved, though they now have not.

So - -

Jason has said:

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear.

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I think this is a good thing, how we should be motivated to take action to reach those who have not heard, and not only be having a theoretical discussion about them. Do what God knows will help . . . what God personally guides each of us to d

Alla27 said:

Jason, I really like what you said in post #22. And I agree.
But still I want you to answer my question.
Yes, all people will be accountable to God. But Jesus said that He is the ONLY way to God Father. You explained to me very well what it means.
From what you said I make a conclusion that those who never had an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior will NOT enter Father's presence. God did NOT give them an opportunity either to ACCEPT or to REJECT Jesus Christ.
God did NOT give them this CHOICE.
So, either
1)Jesus Christ did not die for ALL but only for the lucky ones. the lucky ones who had an opportunity to ACCEPT Christ.
Or,
2) if they can enter Father's presence without Christ then Jesus Christ is NOT the ONLY way.

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I will answer your question by asking a series of questions if that is ok? Now keep in mind. I am not giving you an "official Christian" answer. Because nobody can really answer that question with certainty. If they said that they knew the answer I would call them out on it. So this is just my belief that I have come to conclude for myself.

Question 1. What are Christian held accountable for in regards to sin and salvation?

Alla27 said:

So, if Matthew 25:31-46 is the answer to my question ... Then Jesus Christ is NOT the ONLY way to Father.

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How do you figure? Matthew 25 mentions the Son of Man coming in glory to judge, this means that he is the way to the Father.

Alla27 said:

Jesus wants me to forgive my offenders.

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Yes >

"'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25)

This IS HIS WILL. If I am true disciple of Christ I want to do what He wants me to do. But can I do it? Can I forgive my offender? Can I be like Christ? Christ who can forgive those who offend Him?

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Yes, we can. It is possible with God and His grace almighty in us changing us to become strong in love and forgiveness. But for humans trying, it is "impossible", Jesus does say > Luke 27:18. But Jesus commands how we are to forgive, and we have the example of Jesus > Luke 23:34. His example is for us to follow (Ephesians 5:1-2), and Jesus in us makes us successful . . . like I offer our Apostle Paul does mean by Galatians 2:20 and Galatians 4:19. God's grace succeeds > "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (in 2 Corinthians 12:9)

But I find that some number of Mormons consider grace to be only some distant thing of God's "favor", but not God actually working in us to have us succeed in all He pleases. And I also find that a number of Bible claiming "born-again" people can treat "grace" like it is only a safety valve thing to let us off the hook as much as we fail . . . while we do the willing and the "trying". But failing is not faith. Paul speaks of "faith working through love", also in Galatians > in Galatians 5:6. True faith works > it succeeds in doing all that God's love has us doing, Alla.

I find it is very hard sometimes to be like Christ.

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Jesus does not say "hard", but "impossible" > Luke 27:18. But it is possible with God in us succeeding with us.

It is very hard sometimes to follow Him.

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You have this in common with all of us . . . as much as any of us still is failing because of trying, instead of submitting to God.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

It is hard sometimes to forgive. But I want to do it any way. I am trying and trying and trying to forgive and I feel that I have some progress in my process of forgiving but it is not enough. I did ALL I could to OBEY Christ's will to forgive but I feel that I am failing.

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I'll just offer that Jesus says to forgive, "Whenever you stand praying" (in Mark 11:25). First pray until we are in God's grace so we succeed. Then succeed. And in praying we are praying love and blessing with hope for the ones we forgive.

However, there are "lazy" forgivers who are only praying so they can tell themselves they are obeying God, but they do not personally love and care for and have hope for the ones they forgive. So we need to be strong in God's love, so we forgive well in prayer with hope > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7) < in God's love and prayer, we have hope for any person, at all, while we are praying in love and forgiveness for the person.

Jesus looks at me with a smile and says:" Oh, poor child. She tries so hard to be like Me. She does ALL she can to be like Me. But she can't. But I don't need her to be perfect. The point is that she has a desire and she tries. Her hard work will never make her whole and clean from her IMPERFECTION(sins). That is why I will save her BY MY GRACE. I will show her My MERCY and I will show My MERCY to all those who WANT to DO MY WILL.

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Jesus saves us by His grace, yes, plus His grace changes us to be like Jesus and His grace has us loving and forgiving the way God wants; because His grace is almighty against how we have been; God's grace changes our nature so we are succeeding in doing all He commands . . . how He means what He commands. And His correction brings this change in our character > > >

Our Father's correction changes us so we become "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" >

please see Hebrews 12:4-11.

And with this correction, I offer, Alla, we become even natural and successful; and 1 John 4:17 can help to confirm how God's love so succeeds like this. So, I do not agree that "trying" is enough for the real Jesus and true grace.

Alla27 said:

Is Jesus the only way or not the only way?

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Yes, Jesus is the only way.

Alla27 said:

Place where God lives and where there is His throne. Place that is called "His heavenly Kingdom".

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I assume that's a concept present in Mormonism.

It's not one that I recognize. I don't believe that there's a "place where God lives", or that He has a literal throne; and the concept of the kingdom isn't about a "place" "somewhere" but describes the reign and royal authority of God which was present in and through Christ and inaugurated by Him.

I'm not trying to be difficult. But I think it's important to have some sort of basis to go with here. Is the intent of the discussion to talk about what is meant in the Gospel of John when Jesus says He is the way to the Father? Or are we talking about something else?

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

My question is this:
Let's pretend that
1)I am born in Americas in times when Jesus is walking on earth. I never heard about Him and about His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
2)I am born in the 1st century BC in Australia. I never heard about Christ. I never heard His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
3)I am born in 14th century AD on an little island where nobody ever heard about Christ and His gospel. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
4) I am born in Saudi Arabia in 21th century. I am 15 years old. I was killed at this age. I never heard the gospel of Christ. I don't know what it means to follow Christ. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?

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Romans2:12 If one lives life without knowledge of the law-the teachings of the Torah-he will sin and die apart from the law. If someone else lives life under the law, his sin will be judged by what the law teaches. 13 Here's my point: just because a person hears the law read or recited does not mean he is right before the one True God; it is following the law that makes one right, not just hearing it. 14-15 For instance, some outsiders who are not required to follow the law often live quite naturally by its teachings. Even though the law wasn't given to them, in themselves they have the law. Here's the thing: their lives demonstrate that God has inscribed the law's teachings on their hearts. On judgment day, their consciences will testify for them, and their thoughts will both accuse and defend them. 16 This good news given to me declares that this affirmation and accusation will take place on that day when God, through Jesus, the Anointed One, judges every person's life secrets.

You are posting things in the apologetics forum that belong in theology.