One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

[Ace777]

That's quite a bunch of claims. Do you have any evidence for any of it?

Is it that difficult for you do do a google search?

The main thing is that the atmosphere was different and we know this from the air bubbles in the ice core samples that go back about 800,000 years. The Triassic Period (252 to 201 million years ago) kicked off the age of dinosaurs. “Back then, it was extremely hot because concentrations of atmospheric carbon dioxide were five times higher than today's levels,”


Why was the sky pink?

When the sun is low on the horizon, its light has to pass through a greater thickness of the Earth's atmosphere to reach the observer. This causes the shorter, red wavelengths of light to scatter more and be more visible, while the longer, blue wavelengths are scattered less and are less visible.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Is it that difficult for you do do a google search?

You are making claims, and I don't think you can back them. You have the burden.

The main thing is that the atmosphere was different and we know this from the air bubbles in the ice core samples that go back about 800,000 years. The Triassic Period (252 to 201 million years ago) kicked off the age of dinosaurs. “Back then, it was extremely hot because concentrations of atmospheric carbon dioxide were five times higher than today's levels,”


Why was the sky pink?

When the sun is low on the horizon, its light has to pass through a greater thickness of the Earth's atmosphere to reach the observer. This causes the shorter, red wavelengths of light to scatter more and be more visible, while the longer, blue wavelengths are scattered less and are less visible.

Are you claiming that the sun was always low in the sky everywhere for long periods of time? (That's unpossible, BTW.)

Also, where is your evidence that the Rocky Mountain dinos died in a flood.

 

[Ace777]

You are making claims, and I don't think you can back them. You have the burden.

If you do not want to check it out then disregard my claims. I would not make a claim if I had not checked it out myself. Again you need to do your own research and you can not expect others to do it for you.

Also, where is your evidence that the Rocky Mountain dinos died in a flood.

There does seem to be a lot of creationists sites that talk about this. I did find an article in Science daily. Also the Bible talks about how God cleanses the earth with water and fire. The issue has to do with understanding shadows and types in the Bible. Noah's flood clearly represents more than just Noah's flood in his day.

2 Peter 3
The Coming Judgment
5 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men

"Fires and floods which raged across the Isle of Wight some 130 million years ago made the island the richest source of pick 'n' mix dinosaur remains of this age anywhere in the world."

Fires and floods key to dinosaur island secrets

Fires and floods which raged across the Isle of Wight some 130 million years ago made the island the richest source of pick ’n’ mix dinosaur remains of this age anywhere in the world. A new study has revealed the Island’s once violent weather explains why thousands of tiny dinosaur teeth and...

www.sciencedaily.com

Red tide fossils point to Jurassic sea flood

Dinosaur-age fossilized remains of tiny organisms normally found in the sea have been discovered in inland, arid Australia -- suggesting the area was, for a short time at least, inundated by sea water 40 million years before Australia's large inland sea existed.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Hans Blaster]

If you do not want to check it out then disregard my claims. I would not make a claim if I had not checked it out myself. Again you need to do your own research and you can not expect others to do it for you.

Oh, I'm pretty sure your wrong.

There does seem to be a lot of creationists sites that talk about this. I did find an article in Science daily.

You could always post a link. It would be the decent thing to do if you are using it to back or build your claim.

Also the Bible talks about how God cleanses the earth with water and fire. The issue has to do with understanding shadows and types in the Bible. Noah's flood clearly represents more than just Noah's flood in his day.

2 Peter 3
The Coming Judgment
5 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men

I don't really care what the bible says.

This is getting a lot closer, but neither of the are in the Rockies?

"Fires and floods which raged across the Isle of Wight some 130 million years ago made the island the richest source of pick 'n' mix dinosaur remains of this age anywhere in the world."

Fires and floods key to dinosaur island secrets

Fires and floods which raged across the Isle of Wight some 130 million years ago made the island the richest source of pick ’n’ mix dinosaur remains of this age anywhere in the world. A new study has revealed the Island’s once violent weather explains why thousands of tiny dinosaur teeth and...

www.sciencedaily.com

The Isle of Wight is in England and the flooding was a flash flood after a thunderstorm as the article says.

Red tide fossils point to Jurassic sea flood

Dinosaur-age fossilized remains of tiny organisms normally found in the sea have been discovered in inland, arid Australia -- suggesting the area was, for a short time at least, inundated by sea water 40 million years before Australia's large inland sea existed.

www.sciencedaily.com

This one is in Australia and may not even be a flood.

No one is saying that fossils don't ever form in flood deposits, they often do. But there is categorically no evidence of a flood covering much of the Earth at one time or even close to it. Floods are localized events then and now.

 

[Ace777]

Oh, I'm pretty sure your wrong.

Then prove me wrong, give it your best shot. Show us what you have. I do not think you can. My dad use to love to pull this reverse psychology on me all my life. I do not think you can do it, so prove me wrong.

But there is categorically no evidence of a flood covering much of the Earth at one time or even close to it.

I said NOTHING about "much of the earth". You are setting up a strawman.

I think that you are forgetting that snow and ice is water.

At its maximum point, the last ice age, which occurred during the Pleistocene Epoch between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago, covered 32%of the Earth's land area with glaciers. This included most of North America and Eurasia, as well as areas as far south as New York and Wisconsin. The ice sheets also had a significant impact on the Earth's climate, causing deserts to expand.

The ice age also caused the Earth to be much drier and sea levels to be much lower. Some animals that lived during the ice age include brown bears, caribou, and wolves, but megafauna like mammoths, mastodons, saber-toothed cats, and giant ground sloths went extinct at the end of the ice age.

My claim is that the dinosaurs were killed in a flood. The idea that all of the earth was covered with water is a figment of your own imagination and not a claim that I made. There have been six world wide extinctions though. That seems to be a part of evolution.

Most people do believe there was a time when God did cover the whole world with water, in the beginning.

Scientists have found evidence that Earth was covered by a global ocean that turned the planet into a “water world” more than 3bn years ago. Telltale chemical signatures were spotted in an ancient chunk of ocean crust which point to a planet once devoid of continents, the largest landmasses on Earth.

Remember we are talking about: "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven" Genesis 8:2. We are saying Noah's flood is a shadow and a type of what took place at Pangea. There is a best selling book called: "Paradigm" that explains shadow and types in the Bible and how to understand the symbolic Bible. This does NOT make the Bible any less literal just because there is also a symbolic aspect to Noah's flood.

 

[Ophiolite]

That's quite a bunch of claims. Do you have any evidence for any of it?

For starters:

A. Provide a source for your claim that Rocky Mountain dinos died in a flood.

B. Provide a source for your claim that the sky was pink.

As to A, the spurious claim may be based on the high probability that their bones are preserved in alluvial sedmiments, else they would be even more unlikley than the already very unlikely chance to be preserved. And the best way of preserving them in alluvial sediments is to have them rapidly covered with other sediments. And the best way of doing that is to have a flood deposit those sediments.
He might also be referencing the fact that some specimens have been found that died simultaneously with the tsunami, generated by the KT impact, and were covered by the detritus it produced.
In summary, some RM dinosaurs almost certainly died in a flood, many RM dinosaurs were undoubtedly preserved as a consequence of many different floods, so overall - nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

As to claim B, if one views the world through rose coloured spectacles the sky will appear pink.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I said NOTHING about "much of the earth". You are setting up a strawman.

You keep talking about floods at high altitudes and referencing the "creation story". It's standard biblical global flood stuff. This seems a dodge.

I think that you are forgetting that snow and ice is water.

A blizzard or an ice age IS NOT A FLOOD.

At its maximum point, the last ice age, which occurred during the Pleistocene Epoch between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago, covered 32%of the Earth's land area with glaciers. This included most of North America and Eurasia, as well as areas as far south as New York and Wisconsin. The ice sheets also had a significant impact on the Earth's climate, causing deserts to expand.

The ice age also caused the Earth to be much drier and sea levels to be much lower. Some animals that lived during the ice age include brown bears, caribou, and wolves, but megafauna like mammoths, mastodons, saber-toothed cats, and giant ground sloths went extinct at the end of the ice age.

You googled some facts. Fun. Then you jump back an additional 65 million years to talk about dinos...

My claim is that the dinosaurs were killed in a flood.

When and where were "the dinosaurs" killed in a flood if not everywhere?

The idea that all of the earth was covered with water is a figment of your own imagination and not a claim that I made.

It's my imagination with the figment.

There have been six world wide extinctions though. That seems to be a part of evolution.

Most people do believe there was a time when God did cover the whole world with water, in the beginning.

Scientists have found evidence that Earth was covered by a global ocean that turned the planet into a “water world” more than 3bn years ago. Telltale chemical signatures were spotted in an ancient chunk of ocean crust which point to a planet once devoid of continents, the largest landmasses on Earth.

Remember we are talking about: "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven" Genesis 8:2. We are saying Noah's flood is a shadow and a type of what took place at Pangea. There is a best selling book called: "Paradigm" that explains shadow and types in the Bible and how to understand the symbolic Bible. This does NOT make the Bible any less literal just because there is also a symbolic aspect to Noah's flood.

There are no "fountains of the deep".

 

[AV1611VET]

There are no "fountains of the deep".

Keep looking.

 

[Ace777]

There are no "fountains of the deep".

perhaps you would like to explain Genesis 2:8 and what you think this means: "all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

When and where were "the dinosaurs" killed in a flood if not everywhere?

My study had to do with Ghost Ranch, this was where billy crystal made the movie city slickers. I spent about two or three months to study this ranch. They found more than 1,000 Coelophysis (SEE-low-FY-sis) fossil skeletons in an area only a half-acre. In 1947, paleontologists discovered a mass burial of hundreds of Coelophysis skeletons at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico. The skeletons include babies, adults, and other individuals, and are thought to have been killed by a flash flood that trapped the dinosaurs in a low-lying area, such as a small pond, where they were quickly buried. The flood may have also trapped other species. The well-preserved fossils at Ghost Ranch are a rare find. These were meat eating dinosaurs.

Then I discovered dinosaur remains all the way up the rocky mountains to Wyoming. Again they were buried in flood deposits. Not only there but Edwin Colbert found them all over the world. I never skied the rocky mountain because vail is so expansive. But I have been there and they are very beautiful.

Edwin H. Colbert was a prominent American vertebrate paleontologist and author. His work significantly contributed to our understanding of Earth’s history and the theory of continental drift. Here are some key points about him:

1. Lystrosaurus Discovery:
   • While working in the Coalsack Bluffs, Colbert’s team discovered fossils that he identified as Lystrosaurus bones.
   • This discovery played a crucial role in proving the theory of continental drift.
   • Laurence M. Gould, writing in the New York Times, called it “one of the truly great fossil finds of all time” 1.
2. Antarctic Expedition:
   • In 1969, Colbert conducted fieldwork in Antarctica.
   • During this expedition, he found a 220-million-year-old fossil of a Lystrosaurus.
   • This discovery further solidified the acceptance of the theory of continental drift 2.

In summary, Edwin H. Colbert’s work not only advanced our knowledge of prehistoric life but also contributed to the scientific understanding of Earth’s geological processes.

Meat eating dinosaurs were destroyed in a world wide event that took place at the time of Pangea. One theory I heard is that Satan was angry with God and he wants to get God's creation to destroy itself. So he got dinosaurs to devour each other. This is why Satan had to get Adam and Eve deceived into playing a part in this.

Genesis 1 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Because man was appointed "over every living creature" God is doing a work though us to redeem and restore creation to God's plan and purpose. There is suffering in the world but soon everything will be restored.

Paul warns us:

Galatians 5:18 "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
People that want to bite and devour each other maybe well advised to pay attention to Paul's warning.

So Satan did a work to get the dinosaurs to bite and devour each other. Now Paul tells us that there are people in the church that want to bite and devour and consume each other.

 

[dlamberth]

It's true that dinosaurs have been discovered in various low level areas through out the Rocky Mountains. The dinosaurs bones found are from the Mesozoic Era and on the East side of the Rockies. This is when the Rocky Mountain rose and the Western Inland Sea existed. Some area's where dinosaur bones were found were in ancient flood plains.

Here's a link to the Inland Floodplain Environment:
Inland Floodplain Enviroment — Big Bend Fossil Discovery

Here's a link to one of the locations called: Morrison Rock Formation. As you can see, it's not high in the mountains.
Morrison Formation - Dinosaur National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[dlamberth]

Would you like to look at Florida, the Pacific Islands or the Rockey mountains for evidence of a global flood? We are told that the mountains were covered, are we not? What the Bible does not talk about is that much of the water was frozen.

I'm bringing this piece from Ace forward for reference.

 

[Ace777]

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

This is very difficult because we are drawn to the word: earth. This is the word used in Genesis 1:1. It looks like everything on the earth died in Noah's flood. Then we see the words all flesh. Again in the Bible All means All. But what is FLESH. According to the law of first use we see this in Genesis 2:21 when God took the women from the side of Adam and closed up his FLESH. I know this is no issue for you, but it is still the loop hole for me to show that Noah's flood was not as global as you would claim.

 

[Ace777]

Some area's where dinosaur bones were found were in ancient flood plains.

The only animals to survive was the crocodile and the turtle. They both require very wet conditions. They also both get very big over time and they live a very long time. They tend to kill crocodiles when they get up to 25 feet because they can not be managed at that size. Turtles are harmless so they let them be. When I was in Florida at a zoo they said the turtle there was 300 years old.

 

[AV1611VET]

All means All. But what is FLESH.

Let's let the Bible answer that, shall we?

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Meaning of "all flesh" in Genesis 7:21 is:

1. everything that moved
2. all fowl
3. all cattle
4. all beasts
5. all creeping things
6. all mankind

As they say: "context, context, context."

 

[Ace777]

Meaning of "all flesh" in Genesis 7:21 is:

1. everything that moved

Swing and a miss, nice try though. Everything that moved does not define flesh. Flesh define a sub catagory of all that moved. So it is all flesh that we are talking about. Not all that moved. We see this word used a LOT in Genesis.

We see in Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

This is an interesting choice of words: "all flesh had corrupted his way". Is all that moved a "his"?

But lets follow your logic. You say God destroyed everything on the earth. Does earth now mean dry land or was everything in the ocean destroyed somehow in the flood? Also if God destroyed everything that was NOT on Noah's ark then were do all the animals come from that were not on the Ark? Look at the Pacific Islands are unique places scattered across the Pacific Ocean, known for their beauty and rich biodiversity. Every island has their diversity of things that move. Even if they were on Noah's ark how did they get to their individual island? Do you really think there was a Monitor LIzard on Noah's ark?

 

[Hans Blaster]

perhaps you would like to explain Genesis 2:8 and what you think this means: "all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Who ever wrote that line didn't understand how the earth works. No one did then, but those "features" don't exist.

My study had to do with Ghost Ranch, this was where billy crystal made the movie city slickers. I spent about two or three months to study this ranch. They found more than 1,000 Coelophysis (SEE-low-FY-sis) fossil skeletons in an area only a half-acre. In 1947, paleontologists discovered a mass burial of hundreds of Coelophysis skeletons at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico. The skeletons include babies, adults, and other individuals, and are thought to have been killed by a flash flood that trapped the dinosaurs in a low-lying area, such as a small pond, where they were quickly buried. The flood may have also trapped other species. The well-preserved fossils at Ghost Ranch are a rare find. These were meat eating dinosaurs.

Then I discovered dinosaur remains all the way up the rocky mountains to Wyoming. Again they were buried in flood deposits. Not only there but Edwin Colbert found them all over the world. I never skied the rocky mountain because vail is so expansive. But I have been there and they are very beautiful.

Edwin H. Colbert was a prominent American vertebrate paleontologist and author. His work significantly contributed to our understanding of Earth’s history and the theory of continental drift. Here are some key points about him:

1. Lystrosaurus Discovery:
   • While working in the Coalsack Bluffs, Colbert’s team discovered fossils that he identified as Lystrosaurus bones.
   • This discovery played a crucial role in proving the theory of continental drift.
   • Laurence M. Gould, writing in the New York Times, called it “one of the truly great fossil finds of all time” 1.
2. Antarctic Expedition:
   • In 1969, Colbert conducted fieldwork in Antarctica.
   • During this expedition, he found a 220-million-year-old fossil of a Lystrosaurus.
   • This discovery further solidified the acceptance of the theory of continental drift 2.

In summary, Edwin H. Colbert’s work not only advanced our knowledge of prehistoric life but also contributed to the scientific understanding of Earth’s geological processes.

Thanks for providing this information. That is a site (Ghost Ranch) in the Rockies with flood deposit dinosaur fossils. It reads very oddly though. Part of it is in the first person, but I don't think it is something you did personally. Other parts read like an encyclopedia article. If you are pulling material from a source, you should let us know as this was a bit confusing overall.

Meat eating dinosaurs were destroyed in a world wide event that took place at the time of Pangea.

All the non-avian dinosaurs were wiped out at the K-T event 66 Mya. The leading candidate reason is the impactor hypothesis.

One theory I heard is that Satan was angry with God and he wants to get God's creation to destroy itself. So he got dinosaurs to devour each other. This is why Satan had to get Adam and Eve deceived into playing a part in this.

Genesis 1 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Because man was appointed "over every living creature" God is doing a work though us to redeem and restore creation to God's plan and purpose. There is suffering in the world but soon everything will be restored.

I am uninterested in theology or scripture...

Paul warns us:

Galatians 5:18 "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
People that want to bite and devour each other maybe well advised to pay attention to Paul's warning.

So Satan did a work to get the dinosaurs to bite and devour each other. Now Paul tells us that there are people in the church that want to bite and devour and consume each other.

including from Paul

 

[Ace777]

Who ever wrote that line didn't understand how the earth works.

That was a quote from the Bible.

It reads very oddly though.

Most of what I do is a quote. So you can run a google search. A search is difficult because so many creationist sites come up and I know that you are not interested in their opinion of this. The expert here is Edwin Colbert who was able to prove continental drift. What they now call plate tectonics.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That was a quote from the Bible.

I know that, but it is wrong about the Earth.

Most of what I do is a quote.

I figured it out, but I shouldn't have to.

So you can run a google search. A search is difficult because so many creationist sites come up and I know that you are not interested in their opinion of this. The expert here is Edwin Colbert who was able to prove continental drift. What they now call plate tectonics.

 

[Ace777]

I've asked creationists repeatedly over the years how God created living species.

Theistic evolution believes that God acts and creates through natural laws. Science does not argue against a God creating the natural laws or the laws of physics. They do know that the laws are very exact and very precise. Science can not study the laws themselves, they can only study the effect of those laws. It is even another step beyond that to try to determine where the laws come from. Or even where they are.

 

[Ace777]

I know that, but it is wrong about the Earth.

You believe the Bible is wrong? I do not think the terms of service allows for that. But feel free to try to prove the Bible is wrong. Usually people just do not understand what the Bible is telling us.
The modern translations says that fountains are natural springs. Natural Springs: In a broader sense, a fountain can also be a natural spring of water that issues from the earth 1. These natural fountains can be found in various landscapes.

I have been looking for a scientific explanations for windows of Heaven but have not found one yet. Water falls from the sky because of gravity. Some things are just unknown. I do study rocks and how water forms and shapes them. It is very easy to balance rocks. I do that quite often. Their balance point is not always where you think it should be.