One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

pitabread said:
You used the term "instantly":

Yep - because you not only need to go from dust to fully formed adult - you need all the software loaded.
What is your point? you think that evolution does not need a "whole day" to get all that done? Or evolution could solve all of it in a day but can't load the software in time before the sun goes down and the day ends?

prodromos · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
Literal death or spiritual death? Because if you're assuming literal death, there are a whole host of other issues that raises.

Literal.

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said:
what would be the point? What problem would that solve?

Is your claim that all the evolution text books are claiming "evolution" stories for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours??

Since there is no such thing as that - Why not direct-manufacture??

You're still just answering questions with questions.

If you can describe a process by which direct manufacture of living organisms can work, then by all means. Can you describe such a process?

And in what ways would it differ from direct manufacture since you can't have anything other than super intelligent design salutations . All of manufacturing today is "super abrupt hyper saltation" by that standard.

Well, for starters we wouldn't expect all species on Earth to have the appearance of evolution and the Earth itself to have the appearance of an evolutionary history of species? There is a reason biologists have concluded such because that is what living things look like.

If organisms were created independently things could (and probably should) look very different. For example, if the living world were filled with blatant chimeric organisms with no pattern of evolutionary history, that would be something a creator could do. Yet we don't find such things in nature.[/quote]

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

prodromos said:
Literal.

Like I said, that causes a whole host of other other problems. For example, God commanded living things to be fruitful and multiply. Without death, you'd rapidly run into some population issues.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
That's what I'm asking you. Why couldn't God have used an evolutionary process?

What evolutionary process have you proposed for getting from dust to fully functioning adult human in a single "evening and morning"? A single 24 hour day??

pitabread said:
Even for arguments sake a hyper-evolutionary process that fit in a 24-ish time frame?

How does that differ from hyper saltation?
How does that differ from direct-manufacture where the label "evolution" is slapped on at the end?

you are not describing any evolution process known to mankind

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said:
Yep - because you not only need to go from dust to fully formed adult - you need all the software loaded.
What is your point? you think that evolution does not need a "whole day" to get all that done? Or evolution could solve all of it in a day but can't load the software in time before the sun goes down and the day ends?

My point is that you're adding a bunch of extra-Biblical details. What is your source of those details?

prodromos · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
Like I said, that causes a whole host of other other problems. For example, God commanded living things to be fruitful and multiply. Without death, you'd rapidly run into some population issues.

Most creatures do not breed beyond the capability of the environment to feed them.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
what would be the point? What problem would that solve?

Is your claim that all the evolution text books are claiming "evolution" stories for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours??

Since there is no such thing as that - Why not direct-manufacture??

pitabread said:
You're still just answering questions with questions.

Your proposal that there is such a thing as evolution taking dust and turning it into a fully functioning adult human in a single "evening and morning" a single 24 hour day as the days in Ex 20:8-11 at Sinai - raises a TON of questions.

I assumed you saw that as well.

If you can describe a process by which direct manufacture of living organisms

Easy - start with dust - end up with fully functioning adult human.

Infinite wisdom and power can do it "by definition"

dust alone -- can't

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said:
What evolutionary process have you proposed for getting from dust to fully functioning adult human in a single "evening and morning"? A single 24 hour day??

Presumably an accelerated one that your all powerful God used.

How does that differ from hyper saltation?

What is "hyper saltation"? A Google search yields all of 6 results, none of them relevant to this discussion.

How does that differ from direct-manufacture where the label "evolution" is slapped on at the end?

you are not describing any evolution process known to mankind

Of course not, because we're talking about an all powerful supernatural being. My question was why God could not have used an evolutionary process (even an accelerated one). And you haven't given me any real reasons other than to ask why God would have done that.

It seems like you don't have an answer.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
My point is that you're adding a bunch of extra-Biblical details. What is your source of those details?

what Bible detail did I add?? And how did it impact your hyper saltation suggestion?

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

prodromos said:
Most creatures do not breed beyond the capability of the environment to feed them.

Because they die. It's called "carrying capacity".

Speedwell · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said:
what Bible detail did I add?? And how did it impact your hyper saltation suggestion?

The hands, for one.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
So? Why couldn't God have used evolution?

Even if you want to argue that everything was made in six literal days, would that still prohibit God from using evolutionary mechanisms (perhaps sped up or something)? Aren't there also passages about how time works differently for God? Something about a thousand years is like a day and some such. You've read your Bible, you should know what I'm talking about.

Since you're not explaining how God did something, how can you insist how they didn't do it?

How do you reconcile the various ruin/restoration cycles revealed in the geologic record with 'uninterrupted' evolution. God restored life on earth, and set other things back in order, in Genesis 1 in six days. It wasn't the original creation.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
What evolutionary process have you proposed for getting from dust to fully functioning adult human in a single "evening and morning"? A single 24 hour day??

pitabread said:
Presumably an accelerated one that your all powerful God used.

never heard of it.

Sounds like you are slapping the label "evolution" on direct-manufacture of a fully functioning adult human in less then one evening-and-morning 24 period

pitabread said:
What is "hyper saltation"?

It is how evolutionist tell themselves that the evolution-story broke and is little more than direct-manufacture.

prodromos · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
Because they die. It's called "carrying capacity".

You are describing how things are after the fall. You cannot pretend to know anything about how things were prior to the fall.

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said:
what Bible detail did I add??

This is what the Bible says:

Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is what you said:

BobRyan said:
God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

Nothing in there about God holding their hand over anything. Nothing about dust rising up and self-organizing. Nothing there about the clay/dust turning into living human tissue. Nothing about the human instantly having speech, etc.

The original Biblical text is a bit vague on the specifics of how that process works.

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

prodromos said:
You are describing how things are after the fall. You cannot pretend to know anything about how things were prior to the fall.

That cuts both ways doesn't it?

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
what Bible detail did I add?? And how did it impact your hyper saltation suggestion?

Speedwell said:
The hands, for one.

1. The term I used "thought experiment" is not a euphemism for "Bible detail" or "Bible text"
2. you didn't answer the question -- what impact does "speak" vs "hand held out" have on your hyper-saltation evolution solution?

pitabread · Dec 26, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
How do you reconcile the various ruin/restoration cycles revealed in the geologic record with 'uninterrupted' evolution.

Clearly evolution would have been interrupted wouldn't it?

You'll have to have that out with BobRyan though. He seems to be one of those literal 24-hour day types. Not sure he'd go in for those ideas.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
That's what I'm asking you. Why couldn't God have used an evolutionary process? Even for arguments sake a hyper-evolutionary process that fit in a 24-ish time frame?

When an answer to question is another question, it's not an answer.

Perhaps God did use a whole day. Look at the example of the 'dry bones' in Ezekiel 37.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2020

pitabread said:
This is what the Bible says:

Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is what you said:

==========
BobRyan said: ↑
Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.
=======================

Indeed - "thought experiment" is not the same as "here is the Bible text"

pitabread said:
Nothing in there about God holding their hand

Yeah - "thought experiments" are funny that way.

One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

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Wake me when it's soup.

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