One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

[pitabread]

I've asked creationists repeatedly over the years how God created living species. Yet I have found that creationists are unable to provide an answer to that (outside of vague reference to supernatural powers).

But at the same time, creationists insist God could not have done so via evolution.

So if we don't have an explanation for how God created living species, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why explicitly rule that out?

 

[BobRyan]

ok now you have my attention.

I've asked creationists repeatedly over the years how God created living species.

Him - God speaks them into existence in Genesis 1 and this immediately leaves you with the impression that if God does that - and a Christian believes it -- then the Christian must also know how to do it?

Because Agnostic Evolutionists think that Creationists "claim to BE God"??
or agnostic evolutionists think Christian claim to "Be able to do what only God can do??"
or agnostic evolutionsits think that the Christians claim to -- "Be able to do what evolutionists can't do"?

So if we don't have an explanation for how God created living species, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why explicitly rule that out?

What evolutionist text book reads like this bit of legal code -- "9 Six days you shall labor ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."??

You are saying that when you read that creationist text - it immediately occurs to you the the creationist argument looks just like what you find in evolution texts?

========================

I am trying to understand that logic that leads one to suppose anything like that at all.

 

[pitabread]

Him - God speaks them into existence in Genesis 1 and this immediately leaves you with the impression that if God does that - and a Christian believes it -- then the Christian must also know how to do it?

That's not the point. The point is that if we don't actually know how* God created species, why assume God didn't use evolution?

(* Saying that God simply "spoke" them into existence doesn't really answer that question. As I said in the OP, it's just a vague reference to supernatural ability at best. Unless you can explicitly explain what speaking something into existence entails.

And I'm not saying you have to be able to do that yourself. I'm saying that you can't explain that.)

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I think God created a world in which his creation(His vision) came about naturally. It's actually important that he did it this way so people can have faith in him. Yet not have it be so obvious that faith isn't necessary.

 

[ewq1938]

I've asked creationists repeatedly over the years how God created living species. Yet I have found that creationists are unable to provide an answer to that (outside of vague reference to supernatural powers).

But at the same time, creationists insist God could not have done so via evolution.

So if we don't have an explanation for how God created living species, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why explicitly rule that out?

It isn't ruled out. It is known as Theistic Evolution and I subscribe to it.

 

[pitabread]

It isn't ruled out. It is known as Theistic Evolution and I subscribe to it.

Oh I know. I don't just consider theistic evolutionists to be "creationists" as per the common usage in these forums.

 

[pitabread]

What evolutionist text book reads like this bit of legal code -- "9 Six days you shall labor ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."??

You are saying that when you read that creationist text - it immediately occurs to you the the creationist argument looks just like what you find in evolution texts?

So? Why couldn't God have used evolution?

Even if you want to argue that everything was made in six literal days, would that still prohibit God from using evolutionary mechanisms (perhaps sped up or something)? Aren't there also passages about how time works differently for God? Something about a thousand years is like a day and some such. You've read your Bible, you should know what I'm talking about.

Since you're not explaining how God did something, how can you insist how they didn't do it?

 

[BobRyan]

ok now you have my attention.

I've asked creationists repeatedly over the years how God created living species.

Him - God speaks them into existence in Genesis 1 and this immediately leaves you with the impression that if God does that - and a Christian believes it -- then the Christian must also know how to do it?

Because Agnostic Evolutionists think that Creationists "claim to BE God"??
or agnostic evolutionists think Christian claim to "Be able to do what only God can do??"
or agnostic evolutionsits think that the Christians claim to -- "Be able to do what evolutionists can't do"?

So if we don't have an explanation for how God created living species, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why explicitly rule that out?

What evolutionist text book reads like this bit of legal code -- "9 Six days you shall labor ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."??

You are saying that when you read that creationist text - it immediately occurs to you the the creationist argument looks just like what you find in evolution texts?

========================

I am trying to understand that logic that leads one to suppose anything like that at all.

Notice the details in that post include this --

So if we don't have an explanation for how God created living species, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why explicitly rule that out?

What evolutionist text book reads like this bit of legal code -- "9 Six days you shall labor ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."??

You are saying that when you read that creationist text - it immediately occurs to you the the creationist argument looks just like what you find in evolution texts?

========================

I am trying to understand that logic that leads one to suppose anything like that at all.

That's not the point. The point is that if we don't actually know how* God created species, why assume God didn't use evolution?

(* Saying that God simply "spoke" them into existence doesn't really answer that question.

Really??

how so?

what reasoning leads you to that point?

As I said in the OP, it's just a vague reference to supernatural ability at best. Unless you can explicitly explain what speaking something into existence entails.

whaaaat????

I am having a hard to following your logic - you think that to accept God doing it in the time He said He did it - by simply speaking it into existence means you must also be able to do it yourself or fully comprehend it?

I'm saying that you can't explain that.)

You are saying we can't explain HOW infinite, all knowing , all powerful God does what He alone can do?

I am saying it is odd that you would think that this is something finite beings "own" -- explaining how the infinite does what He claims He does. What logical argument leads you to such a place??

 

[BobRyan]

Oh I know. I don't just consider theistic evolutionists to be "creationists" as per the common usage in these forums.

I have to agree with you on that one.

There you have a logical argument I can fully follow.

Another thing that helps your argument is when we notice that the "theistic evolutionists" argue against "design" - even though Romans 1 says that even pagans can see the argument for design. The theistic evolutionists make a "distinctively" atheist/agnostic claim to belief in evolutionism when they go there.

 

[pitabread]

whaaaat????

I am having a hard to following your logic - you think that to accept God doing it in the time He said He did it - by simply speaking it into existence means you must also be able to do it yourself or fully comprehend it?

I'm looking for some details as to the process involved. I never said you had to be able to do it yourself (I'm not sure why you're obsessing over that).

The point is we don't have any details as to process, yet you're insisting that you know what God didn't do? Why?

You are saying we can't explain HOW infinite, all knowing , all powerful God does what He alone can do?

I am saying it is odd that you would think that this is something finite beings "own" -- explaining how the infinite does what He claims He does. What logical argument leads you to such a place??

Sure, I'll buy that. So in that framework, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why rule that out?

 

[BobRyan]

What evolutionist text book reads like this bit of legal code -- "9 Six days you shall labor ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."??

You are saying that when you read that creationist text - it immediately occurs to you the the creationist argument looks just like what you find in evolution texts?

========================

I am trying to understand that logic that leads one to suppose anything like that at all.

So? Why couldn't God have used evolution?

Answer the first question above - and it may help me address your question - since right now I don't see the logic you are using for it.

Even if you want to argue that everything was made in six literal days, would that still prohibit God from using evolutionary mechanisms (perhaps sped up or something)?

That defeats the whole purpose of the evolution argument. It would be like saying "we shortened human gestation down to 12 hours and call that evolution".

There is no "evolution" defined on planet earth for going from dust-to-human in 12 hours.

what "mutations"? do that?
What "survival of the fittest" would account for that?

There is not enough time for any argument other than direct manufacture.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm looking for some details as to the process involved.

Wouldn't we all like to know the "details" in how infinite God creates a fully adult fully formed and functioning human from dust - in less than 24 hours?

Does our lack of ability, science, know-how stop God in some way???

I don't think there is any form of "study of God" among Atheists or Agnostics that shows them testing God and finding His limits. And Christians don't have one either. We never say that if infinite God does something then "by definition" once a Christian "believes God did it" that Christian must by definition also know "how" God did it when He spoke it into existence and caused it all to take place in less than 24 hours.

 

[pitabread]

There is no "evolution" defined on planet earth for going from dust-to-human in 12 hours.

Why not? Could God have not accelerated the process?

what "mutations"? do that?
What "survival of the fittest" would account for that?

There is not enough time for any argument other than direct manufacture.

But what is time to, oh how did you just put, an "infinite, all knowing , all powerful God "?

 

[pitabread]

Wouldn't we all like to know the "details" in how infinite God creates a fully adult fully formed and functioning human from dust - in less than 24 hours?

Does our lack of ability, science, know-how stop God in some way???

Yet you keep insisting how God *couldn't* have done it.

Do you not see the contradiction here?

You appear to have placed some arbitrary constraints on this infinite, all knowing, all powerful god of yours. Why is that?

 

[BobRyan]

You are saying we can't explain HOW infinite, all knowing , all powerful God does what He alone can do?

I am saying it is odd that you would think that this is something finite beings "own" -- explaining how the infinite does what He claims He does. What logical argument leads you to such a place??

Sure, I'll buy that. So in that framework, why couldn't God have used evolution? Why rule that out?

Define what you call "evolution" if you are proposing that God would use "evolution" instead of "direct manufacture" for the process then you must have some idea of "evolution" for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in less than 24 hours. I would like to know about that specific branch of evolution -- perhaps if I knew more about it I could at least say "that is one of the ways God may have done it".

Why not? Could God have not accelerated the process?

In a great hyper-saltation (i.e. miracle) to fix all the innefficiencies in the evolution storyline and have it all come together in a single evening-and-morning?


=============================== quote

from: Is evolution pseudoscience? - creation.com

"The web site of the US Department of Energy admits that no one has observed evolution happen in nature or the laboratory, but explains, ‘As for the fact that we haven’t made evolving life in the laboratory yet, I think that you’re expecting too much of your species. Let’s say, as a first guess, that it took blind Nature a billion years to make evolving life on earth. … How much faster do you want us to go? Even if you give us an advantage of a factor of a MILLION in speed, it would still take us a thousand years to catch up … ’.3

So it is totally unrealistic to expect to actually observe evolution, even under artificially accelerated conditions.

Richard Dawkins, Professor of Zoology, Oxford University, said, ‘Evolution has been observed. It’s just that it has not been observed while it’s happening.’4

 

[BobRyan]

Yet you keep insisting how God *couldn't* have done it.

God puts limits on it - not me
1. A 24 hour day
2. Start with dust - end up with fully functioning adult human

Once that happens -- evolution does not even make it to the table.

You appear to have placed some arbitrary constraints on this infinite, all knowing, all powerful god of yours. Why is that?

On the contrary the constraints are there in the text -- not my doing.

And then there is the "evolution fact" that there is no such thing as a model/paradigm/proposal in real science where evolution goes from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours. So it is pure fiction and in that case how did you distinguish that form of direct manufacture from real - direct-manufacture?

There is no "self organizing principle in dust" that causes it to assemble itself into a fully functioning adult human in less than 24 hours.

Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

So using the computer model you could say the brain was downloaded with the patterns facts memories to function as an adult - but it does not show any path for how evolution simply does that to a pile of clay in 24 hours.

 

[pitabread]

And then there is the "evolution fact" that there is no such thing as a model/paradigm/proposal in real science where evolution goes from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours. So it is pure fiction and in that case how did you distinguish that form of direct manufacture from real - direct-manufacture.

Again, could God have not manipulated time in some fashion (eg 2 Peter 3:8)? Is your God incapable of that?

And what do mean by direct manufacture? What does that process involve?

If you're going to insist on a process but not explain what that process entails you're not giving me much to work with here.

 

[Speedwell]

I have to agree with you on that one.

There you have a logical argument I can fully follow.

Another thing that helps your argument is when we notice that the "theistic evolutionists" argue against "design" - even though Romans 1 says that even pagans can see the argument for design. The theistic evolutionists make a "distinctively" atheist/agnostic claim to belief in evolutionism when they go there.

There is nothing in Romans 1 about ID.

 

[BobRyan]

There is nothing in Romans 1 about ID.

until you read it.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is irrefutable

Instead of saying "nothing appears to be made any more than 2+2 appears to be supernaturally design to be 4" -- it says that Creation is seen to "be made" it says that not only is it "seen" to be made - but the characteristics of the maker - the designer -- the creator - are clearly seen by looking at "what He has made".

That is ID "and then some".

 

[pitabread]

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is irrefutable

How does this rule out evolution as a process by which God created species?