One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

redleghunter said:

Did not suggest such.

We have a Power we did not before God's grace.
The rest of the quote above lends evidence sanctification is a process and not our justification.

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But who gets to define holiness and sanctification?
Those who say they can sin and still be saved or Jesus and His followers as recorded in Scripture?

For are we to assume that if we can sin just a little and or that we will sin less and less as we mature in Christ? What sins would that include that are acceptable? Porn, child abuse, drunkenness, hate, murder, theft? Why would God want us to sin at all on any level? Can God agree with our plan of salvation that says we can sin .... just a little bit?

Oldmantook said:

While the scriptures do refer to some people who were false converts, it is a logical fallacy to assert that all of those were false converts. That would be like saying since those chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. The sample may not be representative of the whole, otherwise known as an overgeneralization.

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If they are not saved, they are false converts. Not a logical fallacy, simply the truth. You shall know them by their fruit.

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In the Greek the Mood for the word "perish" and the word "have" is subjunctive, meaning it's conditional.
Conditional on "believing". The Mood for the word "believeth" is a participle which denotes continual action.

A believer is a follower of Christ. When one stops following or abiding/continuing in Christ, he is no longer considered to believe.

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

John 15:6 If a man abide/continue not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jason0047 said:

So they were doing good works and they were also sinning. That is why Jesus said to depart from Him!

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Matthew 7: YLT

21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?

23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Looks like those saying "Lord, Lord" are claiming their deeds would gain them entry.

Jesus said only those doing the will of the Father would enter. What is the will of the Father?

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6:40)

Jason0047 said:

But who gets to define holiness and sanctification?
Those who say they can sin and still be

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Who is saying such. Your entire argument is based on a hypothetical antinomian construct.

No one is promoting fleshly living is Christian living. On the contrary. I'm presenting something more sobering and frightening for some. If one leads such a life they are not Born from above.

We are either His sheep or not. Those who are will not be plucked from Him.

JoeP222w said:

If they are not saved, they are false converts. Not a logical fallacy, simply the truth. You shall know them by their fruit.

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Thank you. Jesus is very concrete in explaining the either/or.

We are either His sheep or we are not.

Oldmantook said:

How can someone who believes, but according to you is not saved, fall away from salvation if he/she never possessed it in the first place? It is impossible to fall away from something you never really belonged to.

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How can, as Jesus taught, a seed, when planted in shallow soil grow for a while, then wither and die? This seed was not watered, it did not have deep roots, just like people believe a little but not deeply. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is where the difference is. A carnal person may learn, understand basic theology, quote scripture, but never really believe. This is why James said, show me your faith. You must demonstrate your faith and that is of course the Spirit working in you. Where is the fruit of the Spirit? And when troubles come, someone dies, your wife leaves you for another man and you lose faith, that is a carnal faith, not a spiritual one. Perseverance is a demonstration of real faith. We may backslide, become depressed and despondent for a period of time but we eventually come back. Belief also means that you do what Jesus says, you are obedient.
The Lord will not give you more than you can handle and so if you can't handle it, you really don't have the Lord inside, you've not been born again and transformed. This is a spiritual transformation when we enter into eternal life -- we are certain of our communion with the Lord so we don't fall from that and turn against Jesus.

I think it is enough for the believer who truly trusts Christ and lives for Him to rest in the eternal security He has promised in His Word...

To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy. Jude 24


"While those who believe in "falling from grace" are clear that good works cannot earn salvation, they teach that salvation is kept by good works. Thus one gets saved by grace, but thereafter salvation can be lost by works. To teach that good works keep salvation is almost the same error as to say that good works earn salvation. It denies grace to say that once I have been saved by grace I must thereafter keep myself saved by works.

If those who are saved could lose their salvation, then they must by their own actions keep themselves saved. If that is true, then those who stay saved and get to heaven will be able to boast that they played a key role in their salvation: Christ saved them but they kept themselves saved. On the contrary, no man can take any credit for his salvation. We are "kept by the power of God" (1 Pt 1:5), not by our faith or efforts."
Eternal Security

Ronald said:

How can, as Jesus taught, a seed, when planted in shallow soil grow for a while, then wither and die? This seed was not watered, it did not have deep roots, just like people believe a little but not deeply. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is where the difference is. A carnal person may learn, understand basic theology, quote scripture, but never really believe. This is why James said, show me your faith. You must demonstrate your faith and that is of course the Spirit working in you. Where is the fruit of the Spirit? And when troubles come, someone dies, your wife leaves you for another man and you lose faith, that is a carnal faith, not a spiritual one. Perseverance is a demonstration of real faith. We may backslide, become depressed and despondent for a period of time but we eventually come back. Belief also means that you do what Jesus says, you are obedient.
The Lord will not give you more than you can handle and so if you can't handle it, you really don't have the Lord inside, you've not been born again and transformed. This is a spiritual transformation when we enter into eternal life -- we are certain of our communion with the Lord so we don't fall from that and turn against Jesus.

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I "liked" your post however the bolded above is really not Biblical. I'll explain. If you meant temptation yes correct. However we sometimes get dished out to us situations beyond what we can handle as a test of faith to see where we go for comfort and help. Each according to maturity and light given.

Just wanted to make that distinction.

redleghunter said:

Matthew 7: YLT

21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?

23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Looks like those saying "Lord, Lord" are claiming their deeds would gain them entry.

Jesus said only those doing the will of the Father would enter. What is the will of the Father?

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Did you just ignore the word "lawlessness"? Lawless, or iniquity is sin. You ignoring this. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is the transgression of the law." Jesus says to depart from Him not because they are doing wonderful works alone. That is backwards in your thinking.

Jesus says to depart from Him because they worked "iniquity" or "lawlessness" (along with their doing wonderful works). When you say to others that they can sin and still be saved (Because they have a belief on Jesus), you are telling them that they can work iniquity or lawlessness. But this is the very reason Jesus said to depart from Him. This is proven by the fact that Jesus says in verses 26-27 that he that does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of it. Jesus's final point here was not OSAS. It was verses 26-27 that says that you must do what He says. In addition, Jesus says not everyone who says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but He that does the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father or God?

Let's look at Scripture.

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

You said:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6:40)

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But what does "believe" or "faith" look like according to Scripture?

We know that when Peter failed to walk on water, Jesus said, you have little faith.
Can you imagine what would have happened if Noah did not believe God in building a boat?
He and his family would have perished along with everyone else.
Also believing in Jesus includes believing not only in the person of Jesus, but believing everything that He taught and commanded of us. One is not believing Jesus if they are disobeying Him.

James says faith without works is dead. Faith and belief are the same thing. So one's faith or belief is dead if they do not have works. For even the demons believe and tremble. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Think. What King would allow one of his servants to be disloyal to Him? A person has a master or Lord because they are servant to that Lord or master. If one is serving themselves or sin, they serving two masters. Yet, Jesus says, you cannot serve two masters.

Hebrews 11 shows us that faith or belief always leads to right actions and not sinful actions.

Belief is more than just having a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is your Savior alone.

Let me give you an example:

If God told Bob to sit in a porch chair that he knew could not hold his weight, and God said to trust Him that the chair will not break and Bob refused to sit in the chair (and yet Bob said he trusted God). Can you say that Bob was truly trusting or believing in God? No. It is the same when we see God's Commands within His Word and we refuse to do them. We are not trusting or believing God if we refuse to do what He says.

redleghunter said:

Who is saying such. Your entire argument is based on a hypothetical antinomian construct.

No one is promoting fleshly living is Christian living. On the contrary. I'm presenting something more sobering and frightening for some. If one leads such a life they are not Born from above.

We are either His sheep or not. Those who are will not be plucked from Him.

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So salvation is conditional based upon if they find they are living holy or not. I agree.

Also, I am very familar with the various different versions of OSAS. Even those who claim that version of OSAS that says you must live holy in order for OSAS to be true are not exactly being honest. All versions of OSAS are all false and wrong and they justify sin and evil in some way. 99.9% of all Eternal Security proponents believe they will sin at some point again in their life. They believe that a saint cannot stop sinning. So some kind of sin is being justified here. Then there is Mid Range OSAS. This says that you must live holy for OSAS to be true, but dying in one or two unrepentant sins (like lusting after a woman, or lying) will not necessarily send one to be judged and destroyed by God. But there really is no difference between doing a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. Remember, it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to place man into a state of sin (that separated him from God).

Jason0047 said:

Did you just ignore the word "lawlessness"? Lawless, or iniquity is sin. You ignoring this. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is the transgression of the law." Jesus says to depart from Him not because they are doing wonderful works alone. That is backwards in your thinking.

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Jason how could I ignore lawlessness in what I quoted from Matthew 7? I did not.

redleghunter said:

Jason how could I ignore lawlessness in what I quoted from Matthew 7? Probably because it's not there. Perhaps you jumped the gun and thought I quoted elsewhere? Which I did not. The people calling out Lord Lord is in Matthew 7.

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Yes, and they were also sinning, too. They are saying Lord, Lord and doing wonderful works, but if they are also sinning (like Matthew 7 says), then they are not going to make it. For Jesus says to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

redleghunter said:

Jason how could I ignore lawlessness in what I quoted from Matthew 7? I did not.

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Let me ask you some questions.

Do you believe that a saint is saved if they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like looking at a woman in lust, and or lying) as long as they generally lived a holy life?
Do you believe that a saint will never stop sinning?
If so, what sins are acceptable to commit on occasion?
Porn, prostitution, child abuse, rape, murder, theft, coveting?
Does a saint need to confess sin in order to maintain their forgiveness?

It really is simple.

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

So there is no Eternal Security in the Bible. You have to love Jesus or you will be accursed if you don't love Him. The way Jesus says for us to love Him is to keep His commandments.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:8).

Jason0047 said:

So salvation is conditional based upon if they find they are living holy or not. I agree.

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Salvation is not conditional on what man does. Salvation is God's sovereign design.

It is very concrete and monolithic. The Father gives sheep to the Son and He loses none.

It does not say the Son loses some. Or that the sheep can pluck themselves away. We are either His sheep or not.

Very concrete, thick lines bold colors. Straight forward. That's what I said, and that is what Jesus said in big bold red letters.

You have introduced an argument based on a hypothetical "what if a sheep loses his or her salvation." The answer to the hypothetical is no because He loses not one.

Then the hypothetical is extended to put words in my mouth that someone can stop believing in Christ and sin with impunity and stay saved. Of course I NEVER said such a thing nor promoted such a thing. I'll chalk that up to canned responses you give to other people,

Here is the answer. The sheep hear His Voice and FOLLOW Him. They also don't listen to false shepherds. These sheep again will NOT be plucked from Christ.

That is the brave and bold fact from the lips of Christ.

There is no middle ground.

Also, in regards to 1 John 4:8 that says he that loves not knows not God, for God is love:

Well, if somebody thinks they can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved, there are several passages that tell us that this is not the case.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.