• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
8,294
2,613
44
Helena
✟266,208.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Can you answer my question?
I did.
the fire comes at the end of Satan's little season, Satan's little season comes at the end of the Millennium, and no, the Millennium is not now, because Satan still deceives the world and has ever since at least 600 AD and probably before.

I'll ask you a question.
How little do you know about the founding of Islam that you don't recognize it as Satanic deception?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,829.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The big problem for the Amil view is that it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to this present earth, to set his glory among the heathen in the nations - to begin his 1000 year reign over the nations with a rod of iron.

In the Amil view, Jesus comes and utterly destroys this present earth, and the Great White Throne judgment take place, followed by the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem.

Amil does not allow for the Lord's return to stand on the Mt. of Olives, in Zechariah 14, and being here on this present earth, when people will come to Jerusalem to worship Him.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
8,294
2,613
44
Helena
✟266,208.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single

I agree but I also think there are several other problems.
The lack of recognizing Islam for what it is, Satanic Deception, is something that also needs to be considered, because Islam I believe is very much a part of the end times struggle.

Islam teaches Jesus too, they call him Isa, and they teach he did the same miracles, was born of a virgin, and is the Messiah. They do not however teach that he is the son of God, or that he died to save you from your sins. They teach a strict works based salvation, in opposition to the gospel. They also teach that Isa went to heaven and will return one day, believing that he will come down from heaven and appear in Damascus, profess Islam, and start persecuting Jews and Christians.
The location is interesting considering Daniel 8, which no, is not Alexander the Great although that was a foreshadowing.
Daniel 8 is about the End Times, Gabriel says it multiple times, that it's about the final indignation. When Yavan (Northwestern Turkey, think Istanbul, the seat of any true Caliphate) invades, the first king (Alexander was not even the first King Alexander of Macedonia, he was Alexander III) is killed, and the empire (think Ottoman Empire returned) is divided into 4 regions.
The little horn, the antichrist, comes from the southern kingdom of this divided empire, which would contain Syria and Damascus. Read Daniel 8 and ignore the commentary about it being Alexander, read it understanding that it says the Antichrist will come out of one of the divisions of Yavan. I know, you also have a predisposition that it's going to be European focused, now Europe may be representing Mystery Babylon, the world system that at first rides the beast, and then is destroyed by the beast.
So Islam is directly looking for the antichrist, who they believe is Jesus Christ returned.

The Antichrist is the Islamic Messiah, and Satan has groomed that religion to help him rise to power and support him for 1400 years.
It is the fastest growing religion in the world
and it's colors are white, red, black, and green.
where else have you seen those colors?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,829.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Daniel 8:9 indicates from north and west of Israel, with a strong army. Syria is north, and technically east of Israel.
So Islam is directly looking for the antichrist, who they believe is Jesus Christ returned.
In muslim eschatology, they believe that Isa returns at a time when the Mahdi is in a pivotal battle with the forces of the dajjal (the muslim version of the Antichrist).

So the real Antichrist could not fit the muslim scenario of either the Mahdi or Isa being the real Antichrist.

_____________________________________________________

The real Antichrist is the Antichrist only for the time he is in the role of being the King of Israel thought to be the messiah by the Jews - for a while. The Mahdi, super muslim, certainly can not fit that role. And Isa, the muslim Jesus can not fit the role of the real Antichrist either - because the Jews are looking for someone - not Jesus - as the King of Israel messiah.

_____________________________________________________

Islam's role in the end times ends with the Gog/Magog event. Then the 7 years begin when the Jews will think the little horn person is their long awaited messiah to be the King of Israel.

_____________________________________________________

I don't disagree that the source of Islam is Satan.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,074
3,469
USA
Visit site
✟223,537.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

The reference to deception relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles that occurred after the first resurrection. That is it. You make it something it is not. The prison and chains are spiritual to curtail movement and influence.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
8,294
2,613
44
Helena
✟266,208.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
The reference to deception relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles that occurred after the first resurrection. That is it. You make it something it is not. The prison and chains are spiritual to curtail movement and influence.

But it's really not curtailing anything if you have this massive deception that is Islam, a religion that contains enough of the truth to be dangerous and then twisted to in fact make it the most dangerous lie there ever was.
It's more dangerous than Atheism, because when Muslims behead Christians chanting Allahu Akbar, they think they're doing a service to God.

John 16

But as to the creation of Islam...

Muhammad was praying in a cave, and "Gabriel" appeared before him, grabbed him by the throat and lifted him off the ground and commanded that he write. Muhammad begged because he was illiterate and didn't know how to write, so the angel commanded that he learn to recite the verses he told him.

When Muhammad went back home after the encounter he was distressed, at first he thought he'd been possessed by a Demon.

and the truth is, he had been.

What Muhammad had been taught directly conflicted the word of God, teaching that Ishmael was the chosen son not Isaac, teaching a works based salvation, and teaching that Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God.

1 John 4

So you have the fastest growing religion in the world, that teaches an eschatology of waiting for the Antichrist to follow him, and use it to murder Jews and Christians en masse.

That "binding" isn't really preventing any action of Satan.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,074
3,469
USA
Visit site
✟223,537.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


Bro, these are biblical generalities. Scripture makes clear that the redeemed were, are and always will be (till Jesus comes to usher in the NHNE) a small minority on this earth. Even in Israel, there was only (and always) a small faithful remnant.

Just like blindness and darkness are attributed to the Gentiles (without qualification) prior to the cross, it didn’t mean that every single Gentile was blind and in darkness. Scripture often described the Gentiles as a collective whole. That did not mean the Gentiles were all the same. Scripture, like us, makes generalities. Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry the heathen nations were viewed as being in wholesale ignorant and therefore outside of God’s plan of salvation. Could I suggest this was simply a general observation about the overall condition of the Gentiles as a broad mass, not an attempt to represent every single Gentile?

If we were to take many of the sweeping general statements re the blindness and darkness of the Gentiles in the OT hyper-literally it would negate the salvation of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5). Were these not Gentiles? Where these not “God's people”? The fact is this general assertion did not apply to every single Gentile. Likewise, when Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced in the Old Testament.

Let me illustrate.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the ethnos, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles; in him shall the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles trust.”

The Old Testament writers predicted that there was a time coming when the Gentiles would accept Christ, glorify His name and trust Him. Now, here is an important question. Did all the Gentiles surrender to Him? Using the Premil argument on Rev 20:2 they must. After all, this reading makes a blanket statement they would believe, without qualification. Indeed, did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would do so? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentile nations would turn to God? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would turn from heathenism? Of course not. This was talking about the general enlightenment of the Gentiles.

I personally believe, Premil places a meaning on Revelation 20 which is unsustainable if you apply it to countless other simpler passages in Scripture. Their interpretation of Revelation is out of kilter with the various readings above.

Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
8,294
2,613
44
Helena
✟266,208.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single

You talk about how Amillennialism teaches of a strong Jesus weak Satan
but it's always met with downplaying the power of God along the way.
Instead of "no more" it's "a little less, generally speaking"
it makes the promises of God seem weak and ineffectual
It all seems like you live in some gated community and don't notice the crime outside your own community as you rattle off that all is well, peace and safety.

It's not AS bad as the preterists and historicists, but it cuts pretty close at times.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,074
3,469
USA
Visit site
✟223,537.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Not so. What you impute into those words in Revelation 20 has nothing to do what they actually mean. Any way, your millennium is full of billions of deceived people who reveal their character at the 1st sight of Satan.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
8,294
2,613
44
Helena
✟266,208.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Not so. What you impute into those words in Revelation 20 has nothing to do what they actually mean. Any way, your millennium is full of billions of deceived people who reveal their character at the 1st sight of Satan.

It is a hedging tactic.
Preterists and Historicists do it too.
downplay the promises of scripture so that they can apply it to past events even when they do not match perfectly.
Afterall, what better way to hedge unbelief in a promise that God will do something than to claim God already has done something it's just not meant to be taken literally?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,499
2,833
MI
✟433,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What I found funny is that you interpret all the timings given in the bible to be symbollic except "day of the Lord",
What I find funny is that you somehow think that I said I "interpret all the timings given in the Bible to be symbolic" when I only said that about the book of Revelation specifically. I've noticed that you exaggerate a lot and this is just the latest example of you doing that.

You just don't get it. What both Peter and Paul teach that happens on the day of the Lord is complete global destruction. Paul gives the added insight that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and all believers will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" that day (1 Thess 4:13-5:6 all relates to the day of the Lord). I see no reason to think that what they described will take longer than 1 literal 24 hour day. It's that simple. You include things in the day of the Lord that Peter and Paul do not. I choose to get my understanding of the day of the Lord from them and not from you.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


Amil does not allow for a lot things, that's one of my biggest issues with that view.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,499
2,833
MI
✟433,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That would only be a problem if it was true, but it's not. Revelation 19:11-21 makes it quite clear that His rule over the heathen with a rod of iron has to do with Him destroying them. It couldn't be any more clear. Unless you think the portrayal of Him striking down the nations, treading them in the winepress of God's wrath and birds eating "the flesh of all people" somehow resembles Him reigning over them for 1000 years. Your view also does not line up with many other scriptures such as 2 Peter 3:3-13, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and Matthew 24:37-39.

In the Amil view, Jesus comes and utterly destroys this present earth, and the Great White Throne judgment take place, followed by the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem.
Yes, because that is what scripture teaches. Would you like to tell me how you interpret 2 Peter 3:3-13 and how it lines up with your Premil belief? I think that would be interesting to see.

Amil does not allow for the Lord's return to stand on the Mt. of Olives, in Zechariah 14, and being here on this present earth, when people will come to Jerusalem to worship Him.
Amil doesn't allow for future animal sacrifices to take place because of the "once for all" final sacrifice that Jesus made. A futurist understanding of Zechariah 14 means that animal sacrifices would be reinstated and that completely contradicts what scripture teaches in passages like Hebrews 8-10.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,829.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That would only be a problem if it was true, but it's not. Revelation 19:11-21 makes it quite clear that His rule over the heathen with a rod of iron has to do with Him destroying them.
Ruling the heathen with a rod of iron does not mean destroying them. It means breaking their power, and dominion, to run their governments any way they please.

In the message to the 7 churches, to him that overcomes and is faithful to the end, Jesus is going to delegate that power...

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,499
2,833
MI
✟433,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Amil does not allow for a lot things, that's one of my biggest issues with that view.
Not true.

Amil allows for lots of things like for Jesus to reign now in His kingdom that does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

Amil allows for believers to be reigning with Him now, as scripture says we are (Col 1:13, Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9, etc.).

Amil allows scripture to be interpreted based on the type of language being used in any given passage instead of assuming it's all literal unless it specifically says otherwise.

Amil allows Jesus to destroy all of His enemies at once (2 Peter 3:10-12, Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9, Rev 19:11-21) instead of on multiple occasions.

Amil allows for Jesus to judge all people at once (Acts 17:31, Matt 25:31-46) instead of on multiple occasions.

I could go on and on about the things that Amil allows.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,499
2,833
MI
✟433,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't see this passage as saying what you think it says. How exactly does it do that? Apparently, you're just going to ignore what's written in Revelation 19:11-21 in relation to Him ruling with a rod of iron then? The part about Him striking them down and treading them in the winepress of God's wrath and them all being destroyed is something we should just ignore in favor of Him ruling over them in the way you're describing instead?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,499
2,833
MI
✟433,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You talk about how Amillennialism teaches of a strong Jesus weak Satan
but it's always met with downplaying the power of God along the way.
That is a completely baseless and false accusation. It is the Amil view that emphasizes the current reign of Christ and how He currently has all authority in heaven and in earth. It is premil that downplays the current power of Jesus.

Instead of "no more" it's "a little less, generally speaking"
And again you're misrepresenting our view. As I told you, "no more" means "no longer". It has nothing to do with how much Satan can deceive. It's not saying he can deceive the nations no more than he did before, it's saying he can't deceive the nations anymore when he is bound. The difference is in our understanding of what him being bound entails.

it makes the promises of God seem weak and ineffectual
Another false accusation. You are way out of line here. You have no clue as to what you're talking about here. None.

It all seems like you live in some gated community and don't notice the crime outside your own community as you rattle off that all is well, peace and safety.
That is not what we claim. If you continue to misrepresent what we believe like this then you will be reported.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

In return I would argue like such.

Some things off the top of my head that Amil does not allow for would be some of the following. The reason why is because in my mind these events require that the 2nd coming has to happen first. Thus more time is needed following the 2nd coming in order to fulfill these things.


Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Very few would argue that verse 21 does not involve what is recorded in some of Revelation 19. Most agree that Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming. That then places the fulfilling of verse 22 above beginning with the 2nd coming. But look what the text states. First they are shut up in a prison, and after many days shall they be visited. There is no conceivable way in the world for anyone to make many days mean 24 hours or less. Per Amil there are no more days after the 2nd coming, though. What do Amils then do with verse 22 above in that case? Pretend it's not there? Also, being shut up in a prison does not equal getting cast into the LOF.



Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You already know most of my thinking regarding these verses. So I will just keep it short then. There is no conceivable way in the world for anyone to make shall even go up from year to year to mean 24 hours or less.


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Amil does not allow time for this---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Amil has all of that being fulfilled within 24 hours or less, apparently.
 
Upvote 0

jeffweedaman

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2020
778
558
62
PROSPECT
✟97,293.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Amill have no answer to Isaiah 34:8 or Isaiah 63:4, where Jesus uses day and year interchangably when talking about the day of wrath/vengeance.


Luke refers to days of vengeance / punishment beginning at the temples destruction and their exile. Makes sense to those who were the first recipients of this word who lived through those past events.

Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0