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One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

Jamdoc

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And where do you get this in the Bible?

That's not something directly from the bible, but it is based in a concept in the bible.
The concept that you can acknowledge God and fear Him, and still not love Him.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Not to mention, Adam and Eve in the Garden, they knew God created them, and yet when an alternative to what God told them was presented, they jumped on it in Genesis 3. Didn't they?
 
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chad kincham

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Not at all. I don’t. Scripture does.

Zechariah 14:1, the day of the Lord occurs, 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints, then after Jesus destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem, the nations left alive, go up through the gates of Jerusalem to worship, specifically Egypt is mentioned as one of the nations, in 14:16-19. These people are called heathen in 14:18, KJV, and they sacrifice animals, so are natural peoples of the world, with a religion that calls for such, verse 21.

You might want to rethink some things, and reread some things, yourself.
 
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chad kincham

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Zechariah 65:20-25 has shifted back to the millennium.

This is a fact because in verse 20 it says there is still death, but they live much longer then, and there are still sinners living on the earth.

Thus 20-25 has shifted from the new earth to a snapshot of the millennial reign of Jesus.
 
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chad kincham

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He’s not spouting replacement theology- he says that Christians have no part in the law of Moses and don’t preach or teach the law, i e., do not Judaize - and the exact same thing is taught by Paul in several epistles - the same Paul who refutes the Catholic Church, Martin Luther, Augustine, and reformed doctrinists and their replacement theology.
 
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chad kincham

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You can write a book - doesn’t change that the early church was premillennial - nor change the fact that as Paul so clearly says, God has not cast out His people, National Israel, but in fact salvation came to the gentiles to make Israel jealous, and that though they are ungodly now,when the deliverer, Jesus, comes out of Zion, all Israel alive on earth to see Him, will be saved.
They’ve been dispersed and their land left desolate more than once, but that is not their final state nor final destiny.

Replacement theology is completely ignorant of that fact.
 
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jgr

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Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew.

Romans 11
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes, but that wasn't a reference to gentile Christians.
but rather Jewish Christians, and, a future remnant when Jesus returns.
Zechariah 13, 2/3 are cut off and die, 1/3 is purified through the fire and calls on the Lord.

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This was a prophetic statement.
 
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chad kincham

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Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So far, you have brought no evidence to the table. It is obvious you have not researched the ECFs. You are clearly over your head. If you had, you would definitely not be making the statements you have. You read an article online by Thomas Ice and made that the grounds of your beliefs on this subject. That is a dangerous thing to do. That is unwise. You need to test the information you read online. When it comes to theology and history, Ice has proved himself to be untrustworthy.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew.

Paul declares in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Dispensationalists misrepresent, or conveniently circumvent, the wording of this text with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that to be considered faithful to Israel, God must be committed to the whole physical nation, even though it was apostate, rejected Christ and nailed Him to a tree. But that is not what Paul was pushing at or demanding. Paul actually takes such an inaccuracy head on. You can glean from his question at the opening of Romans 11 that he feels a real sense that the faithfulness of God is at stake. After all, the majority of his kinsmen had rejected their own Messiah. According to Paul, the evidence that God had not rejected Israel in his day is demonstrated by the fact that there was a notable remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalist cynics are quick to dismiss the continuity argument by alleging that for such a position to be valid it puts a significant question mark over God’s Word, integrity and faithfulness.

This reasoning results from a misconception of who and what true Israel actually is. Let us be clear: God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to experience His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We should not miss this thought as we explore the remainder of his argument in Romans 9-11.

Let us look at Paul’s arguments!

Paul’s first argument is personal. He supports his contention by presenting himself as exhibit A. He volunteers himself as tangible proof of God’s continued faithfulness toward Israel. We should recognize, there is no more compelling a spiritual argument than personal testimony. Paul proves that “God has hath not cast away his people” by presenting himself as an evidence of a chosen Israeli. God had not (nor has not) completely cast away Israel, Paul was living proof of this nearly 2,000 years ago. Even though much of Israel rejected Christ, not all did. Thus, Paul is saying not all Israel rejected the Messiah.

Please note, he did not present the continued survival of national Israel as proof (which many mistakenly do today), no, but rather his own personal relationship with God. He presents his own credentials as “an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin,” as proof that God has not finished with Israel. Paul was showing that he was living evidence that God has not turned his back on all Israel.

Paul’s second argument is theological: “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew” (Romans 11:2). Paul builds upon what he has been previously teaching in Romans 8 and 9. His teaching in Romans 8:29–30 and the whole of Romans 9 set the stage for this. God in His infinite wisdom chooses who He wishes. Paul underlines his overriding argument in Romans 9:18: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:21 sums up the whole matter succinctly: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Salvation does not emanate from man. It cannot be realized by human effort. Man can no more create his second birth than he can his first birth. It is a Sovereign act of God’s mercy. This may be humbling to the flesh, but it is so. Professor R. Scott Clark asks: “Has God rejected his people? No, the elect are His people and all the elect will be saved … God’s election of some and reprobation of others are the twin facts of the history of redemption which Paul brings to bear on the question of ‘Who is the Israel of God?’”

Even Dispensationalist John McArthur agrees with this. “God didn’t set His people aside, He foreknew them. Notice the term ‘His people, whom He foreknew’ … Foreknowledge in the Bible has to do with predetermined love relationship … Foreknowledge, scripturally, has to do with God’s predetermination to love … This word frequently implies the intimacy of a binding love relationship in its simplest and purest form. And thus it is used in terms of the foreknowledge of God … God has not cast away His people whom He predetermined to have a love relationship with. He has not set aside Israel, and He shows how He always has a remnant. Verse 5: ‘At this present time there is a remnant’” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).

Paul’s third argument is historic. He presents Elijah’s day where there was a very small remnant of true Israelites (7,000 in number) as support for the fact that God always has a faithful people who remain in covenant arrangement with their Lord. This proved that his day was not unique or unprecedented at all. McArthur adds: “There are only selected ones of faith who are the true Israel. God always in all Israel’s history had a small remnant that was His elect. In Elijah’s time there were only 7,000 who hadn't bowed to Baal” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).
 
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sovereigngrace

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There is no such thing as corporate salvation – not in the Old Testament, nor in the New Testament. This is a modern theological innovation. Whilst no one could surely deny that an all-powerful God would have any difficulty in performing that, Scripture does not present salvation as a wholesale ethnic national experience. It is very much an individual thing and is open to both Jews and Gentiles equally. One just has to look at Hebrews 11 to see that. There, the Old Testament saints are seen to be justified in the same way we are today. Time after time it states: “By faith Abel” (Hebrews 11:4), “By faith Enoch” (Hebrews 11:5), “By faith Noah” (Hebrews 11:7), “By faith Abraham” (Hebrews 11:8), “By faith Isaac” (Hebrews 11:20), “By faith Jacob” (Hebrews 11:21), etc, etc. Here we see the personal aspect of salvation. It was like that before the cross. It is life that after the cross. Salvation was always by grace through faith.
 
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Timtofly

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Using post millennial rhetoric does not prove amill are right. It is the gospel that dispelled darkness, not a millennial reign of Christ promised at the Second Coming. If Pre-mill is just a knee jerk reaction to post mill, I can see your point. Post mill is a human attempt to prove pre-mill is wrong. Any pre-mill who think life is going to repeat in the Second Coming event are mislead. That is not an excuse to be an amil though. Rejecting Post millennial thought is the point of being an amill.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Doesn't matter
you can acknowledge that someone is creator and is all powerful, and still not trust or love them.
You might fear them, and obey them, but you may in the back of your mind think "surely there's something better"
Something better than the completely peaceful earth for 1000 years that He would provide (as premils understand it)? What better could Satan offer than that which would get a number of people "as the sand of the sea" to suddenly decide that it's better than the 1000 years of pure bliss and peace on the earth that Christ would have provided for them?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Not only that, but why would Paul go from saying he hoped that some of them would be saved in Romans 11:14 to saying they would all be saved in verse 26? Did he suddenly change his mind in that short amount of time and decide that they would all be saved after just saying he hoped some of them would be saved? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes much more sense to see that he was talking about a different Israel of which all are saved, which is the spiritual Israel he had previously wrote about in Romans 9:6-8. The ones who are part of that Israel are not the children of God by natural descent but rather by being the spiritual children of the promise. We can see in Galatians 3:26-29 that the spiritual children of the promise are the spiritual seed of Abraham which are all of those with faith in Christ, including both Jew and Gentile believers.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This was a very weak response. You did nothing here to show how your understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25 matches up with Revelation 21:1-4 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. Currently, your understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25, which is a passage regarding the new heavens and new earth, contradicts what is taught in Revelation 21:1-4 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 about the new heavens and new earth. Apparently, you don't care about interpreting a given scripture passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

Zechariah 14 has nothing to do with the new heavens and new earth.
 
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Jamdoc

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Proverbs 27:20
20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

There is always "something else" that we want on top of what we have.
Remember, after the resurrection, which comes before the MK, there is no marriage (Matthew 22:30) you don't think anyone's going to disagree with God on that just because of "glory"?
Angels beheld God in His full glory and still rebelled, man walked with God in the garden of Eden and still rebelled.
It takes more than glory.
God isn't a genie in a bottle giving us everything we want, anything we want that is not fulfilled by God.. we tend to look outside of God.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Zechariah 65:20-25 has shifted back to the millennium.
Give me a break. How convenient for you to not acknowledge that the entire passage is about the new heavens and new earth. You have no trouble believing that the scene suddenly shifts from the new heavens and new earth back to the millennium from Isaiah 65:19 to Isaiah 65:20, but somehow believing that what is described in Revelation 20 does not follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically is too much of a stretch for you.

This is a fact because in verse 20 it says there is still death, but they live much longer then, and there are still sinners living on the earth.

Thus 20-25 has shifted from the new earth to a snapshot of the millennial reign of Jesus.
You're not recognizing that Isaiah was talking to his Old Testament audience about eternity in a way that they could understand at the time. Back then there was no concept of eternity like we have now because of the eternal life that faith in Jesus provides. So, he described it in a way they could comprehend at the time. There is no indication whatsoever that the topic changed away from the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:20.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Exactly: look at the two texts below. They are speaking about two types of Israeli (not one): one is unsaved and the other is saved. One is "blinded" and the other is the elect remnant of Israel – "the election." You are failing to see that, or you are refusing to see that. The nation is no longer chosen. It rejects Christ and therefore rejects God.

Romans 11:5-7 explains: “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what you are arguing. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

What “election hath obtained it”? The “election of grace” that pertains to the “remnant.” It is not the whole of Israel, but a remnant that is elected!!!

Paul readdresses this in Romans 11:28: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

It is “the election” that are saved. They are the remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. The rest are blind and are of their father the devil.
 
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