One Question With AA

[Kevmaster]

Why is it that Alcoholics Anonymous only has a success rate of 5%? Meaning that only one in twenty people who go to AA will actually stop their drinking.

Just wondering...

 

[BobW188]

I'd like to know your source for that figure; and how it was arrived at. (Especially over how long a period of observation and measurement.)

 

[Kevmaster]

This article

orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

 

[BobW188]

Thanks.
The problem I have here is that though much research is cited in the article, the statement that the AA effectiveness rate is only 10-15% is the suthor's own and is not substantiated. It is almost certainly true that between many and most alcoholics do not get sober on their first, or first few, tries with AA. They drop out, resume drinking, and (in many cases) return, sometimes more than once.
Keep in mind that AA is anonymous. That means that each time a person comes and goes from AA and resumes drinking, he or she has "failed," even when finally (and for many of the reasons listed in the article) they return and stay sober. If John drops out of AA four times and returns and stays sober on the fifth, a statistician sees an 80% failure rate. We AA's see a 100% success rate!
Fact is, nobody knows the success rate of AA judged by either measure; but Orange's 5% strikes me as his personal conclusion. And any estimate I gave would be mine. However, even if Orange is correct, that is a 5% success rate over 73 years and, given the tens of millions who have resorted to AA worldwide, that's quite a number.

 

[madison1101]

Statistical studies of AA are difficult due to the anonymity of the program. People do not sign up and stay, some come and go, others come and stay.

I did a lot of research in graduate school, and what was found to be effective in helping people achieve abstinence from alcohol was the support of other people. AA offers that. Another thing that helps is to change one's cognitive distortions. AA's 12 Steps offer that as well.

If you have a problem with alcohol, instead of looking for the negatives, try examining the 12 steps and see if they align with scriptures and do them.

God bless.
Trish

 

[devonian]

Unfortunately I do believe that the current recovery rate in AA is very low. But that is not because the 12 steps do not work, it is because few people apply the 12 steps thoroughly and honestly. It's like buying bought a bottle of aspirin and never taking the aspirin. Many people who attend AA meetings, never even try to apply the solution, but they say that AA doesn't work.

 

[madison1101]

Unfortunately I do believe that the current recovery rate in AA is very low. But that is not because the 12 steps do not work, it is because few people apply the 12 steps thoroughly and honestly. It's like buying bought a bottle of aspirin and never taking the aspirin. Many people who attend AA meetings, never even try to apply the solution, but they say that AA doesn't work.

You are so right on this one. Attendance at meetings is not the solution, but many just go to meetings for the sake of going. Meetings help me learn the 12 steps, and I must apply them if I hope to experience the spiritual transformation that will help me stay sober.

Thanks,
Trish

 

[BobW188]

Yes, but again. If a statistician sees four failures and one success, he sees an 80% failure rate. We, who know it's the same guy or gal finally "getting it" the fifth time 'round, see a 100% success rate.
Of course, in real life the person has probably skipped between groups each time, or taken a few geographics. We don't see the final success. I won't say things are all that good; but I expect they're better than they look.

 

[faithful follower]

When I went through rehab, we were told that maybe 1 in a hundred would make it. I looked around the room and was shocked to realize that meant NONE of us might make it. I've wondered if it was a scare tactic. Anyway, the first time in rehab, I'm one of the ones that didn't succeed. I relapsed. I was fortunate that I had another opportunity to quit. So far, I'm clean and sober, but that is just for today. I am one drink away.

Since my earlier recovery, I have decided not to focus on the success rate. Rather, I focus on my recovery and being available to newcomers and other sick and suffering souls.

If AA fails, it is not as an organization nor as a program. It is as an individual AA who is not applying the program to their life.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Part of AA is calling someone, from AA, before you take a drink of alcohol. I wonder what the success rate is for people who go by that and other AA instructions. I suspect people who go back to drinking are like people who get hit by cars crossing the street. If you don't look both ways its bound to happen. Does that mean looking both ways before crossing the street doesn't work?

"It works if you work it."

 

[devonian]

Part of AA is calling someone, from AA, before you take a drink of alcohol."

The book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" has precise instructions for recovery. I do not believe this is one of the instructions for recovery. It would be a good idea to do, so do it if you can. But unfortunately there are many other idea's that have crept into the meetings of AA that are contradictory to the instructions:

"Put a plug in the jug" implies that we can defeat alcoholism by willpower. This is a idea that the instructions say does not work.

"Remember your last drunk", and "play the tape through" imply that our force of memory can prevent our next binge. This is also an idea that the instructions say will fail.

"Stay on the first step a year" and "Do a step a month" imply that we can take our time doing the steps. The instructions tell us to "Launch on a course of vigorous action", and "We, in our turn, sought the same escape with all the desperation of drowning men." These imply immediate action, not taking our time.

These and many other idea's are part of the reason AA no longer has the recovery rate it once had. The message has not lost its power, but we have lost the message.

The authors of the big book reported a 75% recovery rate in the forward to the first edition. In chapter 5, they claimed that "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.", and Doctor Bob claimed that "It never fails, if you go about it with one half the zeal you have been in the habit of showing when you were getting another drink."

These are strong statements, but the main difference between then and now is how many people actually do the steps. Recovery comes from doing the steps.

 

[madison1101]

The book titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" has precise instructions for recovery. I do not believe this is one of the instructions for recovery. It would be a good idea to do, so do it if you can. But unfortunately there are many other idea's that have crept into the meetings of AA that are contradictory to the instructions:

"Put a plug in the jug" implies that we can defeat alcoholism by willpower. This is a idea that the instructions say does not work.

"Remember your last drunk", and "play the tape through" imply that our force of memory can prevent our next binge. This is also an idea that the instructions say will fail.

"Stay on the first step a year" and "Do a step a month" imply that we can take our time doing the steps. The instructions tell us to "Launch on a course of vigorous action", and "We, in our turn, sought the same escape with all the desperation of drowning men." These imply immediate action, not taking our time.

These and many other idea's are part of the reason AA no longer has the recovery rate it once had. The message has not lost its power, but we have lost the message.

The authors of the big book reported a 75% recovery rate in the forward to the first edition. In chapter 5, they claimed that "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.", and Doctor Bob claimed that "It never fails, if you go about it with one half the zeal you have been in the habit of showing when you were getting another drink."

These are strong statements, but the main difference between then and now is how many people actually do the steps. Recovery comes from doing the steps.

Great point. All of the suggestions I hear at meetings are definitely helpful tips, but the 12 Steps, as they are outlined in the Big Book, is what I am doing differently this time.

I just came from a terrific speaker meeting, and the first speaker gave a great, detailed explanation of how she worked the 12 steps, as they are outlined in the Big Book, and got sober this time. She also pointed out the importance of doing the steps with a sponsor, which is definitely suggested in the 12 step. I look forward to completing the steps and being available to sponsor women. Right now, I am rigorously doing my 4th step.

Trish

 

[healy]

Unfortunately I do believe that the current recovery rate in AA is very low. But that is not because the 12 steps do not work, it is because few people apply the 12 steps thoroughly and honestly. It's like buying bought a bottle of aspirin and never taking the aspirin. Many people who attend AA meetings, never even try to apply the solution, but they say that AA doesn't work.

I can see this. I have yet to be honest in a meeting. Why I go there as a different Healy I just don't know yet but I suspect I feel too young to fit in so I just don't tell everything. I simply agree and move on or sit down and say very little.

 

[KRAZYCAT]

Unfortunately I do believe that the current recovery rate in AA is very low. But that is not because the 12 steps do not work, it is because few people apply the 12 steps thoroughly and honestly. It's like buying bought a bottle of aspirin and never taking the aspirin. Many people who attend AA meetings, never even try to apply the solution, but they say that AA doesn't work.

AMEN!!

 

[BlessEwe]

Originally Posted by devonian
"Remember your last drunk", and "play the tape through" imply that our force of memory can prevent our next binge. This is also an idea that the instructions say will fail.

The addiction has changed the survival ( Sub- Conscious) part of our brain. Saying the brain tells the body it now needs the drug to survive. the part of the brain that tells us to eat and sleep run from danger ect., we have no control over this part of our brain
Reminding the Conscious ( the part of the brain that we are aware) of what this drug did to us is a tool to keep us from picking up again.
There is also a tool to not romance the drug, and play the tape to the last time using, where it got you.
Just like someone stopping smoking if they sit and romance the smokes, more than likely they will pick up another smoke.

"Put a plug in the jug" implies that we can defeat alcoholism by willpower. This is a idea that the instructions say does not work.

Again it is a visual to the Conscious, just like journaling.
Talking is a tool to hear ones self. Especially in the beginning we need to use All Senses

"Stay on the first step a year" and "Do a step a month" imply that we can take our time doing the steps.

This means not just doing the steps once, and never again it is a continuous work in progress.

The instructions tell us to "Launch on a course of vigorous action", and "We, in our turn, sought the same escape with all the desperation of drowning men." These imply immediate action, not taking our time.

This means jumping in 2 feet first, not sitting around waiting to start the steps. It is scary to start, and many procrastinate.


Just like school, church etc. there are people who don't get anything out of it, and people who have light bulbs turn on It goes from the head to the heart and apply it.

I do not agree with this as I wonder how they got there accuracy as it is an anonymous program. And there will be people who will try and discredit it. I for one have seen it work when people really apply the tools.

Edited to add: Most of the sayings in AA came about with true Physiological reasons and purposes behind them. They really have true meanings when the lightbulb does go off, just like many of the sayings in the Bible when things being said over and over go from the head to the heart.

I personally feel

a spiritual awakening of the heart

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[gnomon]

Why is it that Alcoholics Anonymous only has a success rate of 5%? Meaning that only one in twenty people who go to AA will actually stop their drinking.

Just wondering...

It is difficult to measure the success rates of recovery programs and I have not seen many hard figures considering success rates. What I have read is that AA is no more or less effective than Rational Recovery, SOS or simply going it alone.

I'm pretty sure the Rand Institute put forth a study but it's been some years since I last looked at the information.

I believe the 5% number comes from a publication by A.A. World Services almost two decades ago regarding the percentage of people who remain sober during their first year. In other words, it doesn't necessarily take into account those who relapse during their first year but what sort of success they have later.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

I suspect that most people who drop out of AA, like myself, have not "thoroughly followed our path" and have failed to get honest with themselves.

I blamed AA for my own shortcomings. But eventually I went back with a humble and teachable attitude.

I think humility and honesty are the two cornerstones of recovery.

 

[gnomon]

It's more likely that the 12 Steps are not the "best" and only way to recovery as advertised. The "thoroughly followed our path" is a statement used by members to avoid looking critically at recovery methods, no matter which method, and place the blame on the individual.

 

[BlessEwe]

It's more likely that the 12 Steps are not the "best" and only way to recovery as advertised. The "thoroughly followed our path" is a statement used by members to avoid looking critically at recovery methods, no matter which method, and place the blame on the individual.

I disagree. First it is not advertised lol and it is proven through several generations if you truly follow the path, your chances are much greater for long term recovery.
AA's foundation is to take responsibly for ones own actions, just like any self help group if you fail to do the work you are most likely going to relapse.
Critically looking at the recovery brain and understanding more and more how the obsession works ( and since there is not a cure as of yet) many have found life time sobriety walking this path.
This may not be for everyone, and there are other ways of treatment modalities.
Its just like anything in life.. The harder you work on the foundation of something, the stronger you are in that situation. School, Work, Sports, Spiritual, Sobriety you name it.

 

[gnomon]

I disagree. First it is not advertised lol and it is proven through several generations if you truly follow the path, your chances are much greater for long term recovery.
AA's foundation is to take responsibly for ones own actions, just like any self help group if you fail to do the work you are most likely going to relapse.
Critically looking at the recovery brain and understanding more and more how the obsession works ( and since there is not a cure as of yet) many have found life time sobriety walking this path.
This may not be for everyone, and there are other ways of treatment modalities.
Its just like anything in life.. The harder you work on the foundation of something, the stronger you are in that situation. School, Work, Sports, Spiritual, Sobriety you name it.

Feel free to disagree but the 12 steps are advertised. The majority of treatment centers use the 12 steps. Every new "recovery" program from addiction to finger twiddling models themselves after the 12 steps.

The statement most people who leave AA have probably not thoroughly followed their path is grounded in pure speculation and based on poor observation.

Many people who leave AA were court ordered to attend a set number of meetings. Even those busted with minor possession of marijuana. Individuals who exhibit no obsession with alcohol are court ordered to AA. People with mental disorders, such as myself, leave AA because the program is not conducive to recovery from bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Many of those individuals find themselves in addiction treatment prior to understanding the underlying mental disorder.

People leave the program for many reasons. Some because they define themselves as not being an alcoholic (as per the Big Book is how it's done), some because they met their court ordered requirement, some because they find that treatment for their mental disorder is superior to AA, some because they find other recovery methods, some because they do not wish to be sober and others because they cannot follow any path to sobriety at that time.

The attitude of declaring most people who leave one's chosen method of recovery as that of failure is just pure childishness with a touch of envy.