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One problem I have with Christianity

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ace85

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One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

I grew up in a Christian church where intolerance and ignorance were considered good things, and tolerance, knowledge, logic, and reason were seen as bad. One of the big things that turned me off Christianity is that what was being pushed by evangelicals as the "Christian Agenda" was so contrary to Christ's message. Jesus never said to be intolerant and ignorant and pro-war, he said to "love your neighbor as yourself" and even to "love your enemies, and do good to those who curse you." It seems like modern evangelical Christianity is so far from Christ's message, and has become synonymous with the "right wing agenda."
 

ptgd1st

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This is a very interesting subject. I personally believe and I know this is at least common among christians that i know, that While you love your neighbor as yourself, you hate their sin. Meaning, I don't like what you believe but you are or can still be a good person. Unfortunately you are right in the a lot of Christians end up hating that person for their beliefs. That i feel is wrong. Just my thoughts.
 
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RobWW

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ace85 said:
I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.


I am everything that you just listed, except Pro-Choice, and I also accept modern science including evolution. Not all Christians are Right-wing YEC's.

-Rob
 
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Chief117

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One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I think the major problem that you see is that a few "Christians" in the world go around and give the "name" a bad reputation--a stereotype, if you will. Is it not any different than what you just claimed we do of "people like you?" However, I am not even familiar with this "Religious Right" you refer to, but I'm not sure I have to in order to respond.

To a Christian, the Bible is God's living Word, and was spoken through His Spirit by men on earth. Therefore, it is His word. Therefore, all things in His Book are holy, inerrant, to me--and many of the things contained within are rules on how we are to live.

God has never condoned intolerance. In fact, liberals are not our enemies, they are our mission field. Many people have done evil in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Did you know that the Bible is actually not against anger or retribution? Only unwarranted or evil anger. We are called to love our neighbor, but to hate their sin. Many have erroneously used this to promote an environment of hate or harm in Jesus' name. THIS IS NOT OF CHRISTIANITY, and I apologize on their behalf.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

You're right. We are against many of these things. The most heart-strickening one to me is "pro-choice". This is because this particular choice involves the killing of what God has told us is life.

Christianity, however, does not promote things you are opposed to either. In the Bible, we are to love our neighbor and our enemy. Therefore, you might say that it promotes peace. However, there are times when war is good and righteous, and a necessity. When God is with us, we will not fail in battle, and therefore it is blessed. God says it His will that none should perish, so he too is pro-peace.

Discrimination and Equal-rights are touchy subjects due to recent news casts and pre-formed views on how Christians feel about it. Don't believe everything you hear or read, I think there are many erroneous reports out there. It has long been said that Christians are opposed to equal rights. That is so not true (hold on, there's a catch and I'll get to it).


Men and women for example. Neither one is to be above the other. Equal rights are supported by the Bible in this sense. However, men and women do have different roles to play in life (in a general sense). Men and women in marriage are to be equally submissive to each other. The Bible never says there should be unequal rights here.


There is no basis for a Christian argument against equal rights for people of different races either. Color of skin and/or origin are not a factor--we are all the same in God's eyes, and it is the duty of a Christian to learn to look through God's eyes.

Other religions--this is tricky. I would not say that they are worthy of less, should be treated like less of people or anything. In fact, I'm saying that they are my equal. I just recognize that there is but one true God (one and only 1), and therefore all other religions are misguided and lead to nothing. That sounds mean, but it's true--but that also does not mean that I think any less of them. They're God's creations too.

Now when you get into stuff like gay rights and things like this, then I outright say that no Christian should sit idly by while they try to push laws in their favor. It is very clearly in defiance to God's commands and wishes for us. Being gay is not genetic or anything else, it is a choice, a sin like any other. It is something that Christ can help them turn from, and something I pray for every night. We are all sinners, we are no more than they, but I have by God's grace been saved, and I pray that all others will too.


The true Church would never promote the ideas you grew up with. I'm sorry that was your experience. I pray now that the Holy Spirit will confirm in your heart what the truth is--because only He can do that. Only the Holy Spirit can tell you what the truth is regarding spiritual matters.


Here is what Christianity really is: Love. Through and through. We are all sinners, and none better than others. But Christ died for our sins and BOUGHT our forgiveness. This salvation I did not earn by my good works or "sinless life", but by God's grace, and it was freely given. Any one can share in this GIFT. You but have to confess it with your mouth, and then "become a new creation through death and resurrection with Christ" (i.e. become baptised). Christianity is giving my life over to Him who created me, to Him who has the power to save my eternal soul. Christians do not live their lives for themselves, but for a higher purpose, for the love of Christ to be spread across the whole of the earth.

No one can have a problem with that unless they've never felt God's love before...and I will pray for anyone who feels that way.

God Bless.
 
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Reformationist

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ace85 said:
One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

I grew up in a Christian church where intolerance and ignorance were considered good things, and tolerance, knowledge, logic, and reason were seen as bad. One of the big things that turned me off Christianity is that what was being pushed by evangelicals as the "Christian Agenda" was so contrary to Christ's message. Jesus never said to be intolerant and ignorant and pro-war, he said to "love your neighbor as yourself" and even to "love your enemies, and do good to those who curse you." It seems like modern evangelical Christianity is so far from Christ's message, and has become synonymous with the "right wing agenda."

I agree that there are many within the Christian community that deal with non-Christians incorrectly. I, myself, have made many mistakes I'm sure. With that said, your claim that we are commanded to do good, while true, isn't defined by what you, with a humanistic worldview, would define as good. For example, if you loved your brother and he was into bad things, harmful things, even though they be temporally harmful, would it be loving of you not to do all you could to help him see the inherent danger in his lifestyle? Of course not. A person who loves their brother would tell them that what they are pursuing is dangerous, both temporally and eternally. Of course their motive should be one of selflessness rather than selfishness. Of course we should consider their good as more important than our own. This isn't an advocation to "tolerance." The humanistic worldview of "everybody has a right to do their own thing" isn't something that Christians recognize as valid. Who gave you the right to do your own thing? When does your own thing cease to be your right? Is it when it encroaches upon my own thing? You see, no matter whose laws you recognize as authoritative, you either recognize them or you dispense with them, thus creating an atmosphere of anarchy.

Additionally, there is never a mandate to be tolerant of views that are contrary to the Gospel. For instance, we are commanded to battle against the worldviews that express permission for the violation of God's law. Those that suppress and deny the sanctity of life, like the pro-choice position, are at odds with God's law, and thus, God's disciples. In reality, to embrace your position despite it being contrary to God's Law, is to hate you, not love you. Other worldviews that disregard the sanctity of the God ordained institution of marriage, like those that promote the right of the homosexual community to enter into the bonds of matrimony place themselves squarely at odds with God's Law. Again, we are not commanded to tolerate such heinous and immoral views. There is a reason that the Evangelical community and "the Right" seem to be similar. They are. There's a reason that the Liberal community and "the Left" seem to be similar. They are. The left is a anthropocentric worldview. The right, a theocentric.

Intolerance is not a bad thing if predicated by a desire to obey God and applied in a manner that represents His glory.

Christians should be intolerant of anything that runs contrary to the holy Law of God. However, we should do so in a godly way, with a desire to show forth the majesty and sanctity of the Kingdom of God rather than letting our own proclivity to sin motivate us to act in ungodliness.

Lastly, the idea that Christianity runs contrary to logic and reason is one that the non-Christian has created to pat himself on the back for being so smart. The truth is as shown in history. Some of the greatest thinkers and world leaders were devout Christians.

God bless
 
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TheMainException

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I highly agree with you dear brother....what you say is very true. However....some things that you mention....such as pro-choice....i consider murder, equal rights....right on man! anti-discrimination....totally! pro-tolerance....excellent! pro-peace...yea! But anti-war???? Nah....we gotta protect ourselves and help others from terrorists.....it is a way of keeping peace. I accept much of modern science....it explains as much as it can.....but I also do not believe in evolution....and I do not believe in the big bang......but man, knowledge, logic, reason.....totally....we need that.....you are right.....Christianity is going wrong.....but not all of it is......what you are seeing is the older generation leaving its mark behind....don't worry.....the new, post modern church is coming...people like me are trying to change that.....get in on the action and start to be a moving member in your church....get people thinking....get them off their butts and keep them active! Don't get grumpy but not do anything....get moving! Do something about what you are unhappy about....but do it right....preach the gospel dude! I see life in your words....you have something that we need more of these days! Stand up for what you believe and be strong! But remember christ and his message and don't let this world ruin it like it has ruined others. Peace my friend, is the key.
 
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Reformationist

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LAWise520 said:
what you are seeing is the older generation leaving its mark behind....don't worry.....the new, post modern church is coming...people like me are trying to change that.....

What is it that the "older generation" is leaving behind that those of you from the "new, post modern church" are seeking to correct or change? :scratch:

Thanks,
God bless
 
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Letalis

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ace85 said:
One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

I grew up in a Christian church where intolerance and ignorance were considered good things, and tolerance, knowledge, logic, and reason were seen as bad. One of the big things that turned me off Christianity is that what was being pushed by evangelicals as the "Christian Agenda" was so contrary to Christ's message. Jesus never said to be intolerant and ignorant and pro-war, he said to "love your neighbor as yourself" and even to "love your enemies, and do good to those who curse you." It seems like modern evangelical Christianity is so far from Christ's message, and has become synonymous with the "right wing agenda."
I'm all those things you listed except pro choice. I'm also against the death penalty. Maybe this whole time you've just gotten the wrong impression from christians. If you have such a problem with protestant christianity, maybe you should become catholic. ^_^
 
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TheMdude

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ace85, I completely agree with what you've said. I wonder why many Christians are pro-life, but at that same time are republicans, who are pro-death penalty (especially Bush). I'm not saying all Christians are this way, but many of them are, and even young Christians. Why is abortion bad, but the death penalty is ok?
 
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tj0316

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Reformationist said:
What is it that the "older generation" is leaving behind that those of you from the "new, post modern church" are seeking to correct or change? :scratch:

Thanks,
God bless

I would say for one that man has to start to realize who the Head of the Church is suppose to be and that is Jesus Christ and not man. Churches for years have been governed by man and mans laws. Churches have accepted what is totally unacceptable to God. They have also put a hinderance on the Holy Spirit. Preachers are told what they are and are not allowed to preach on. They have been tending sheep and not building warriors. A preacher is a man chosen by God to deliver a message from Him to his flock, who is man to hinder the Word of the God. Praise and worship is to be a big part of going to the Lords house but many churches are against any type of worship in His house. The Bible states that God will restore the house of David. That is taking place right now as the full gospel spirit filled churches are starting to thrive and they should be, as we should be able to worship our Lord the way we choose in HIS HOUSE.
God bless you,
TJ
 
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RobWW

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TheMdude said:
ace85, I completely agree with what you've said. I wonder why many Christians are pro-life, but at that same time are republicans, who are pro-death penalty (especially Bush). I'm not saying all Christians are this way, but many of them are, and even young Christians. Why is abortion bad, but the death penalty is ok?

Being Pro-Choice and anti-war seems similar to that to. Why is it okay to kill a newly formed human, but not a fully grown one. That's why I'm pro-life all across the board, meaning anti-war/pro-peace as well.

-Rob
 
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TheMdude

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the problem i have with pro-life is this: a mother of two young children is raped. she finds out that the childbirth will likely kill her. is it not selfish to let herself die, leaving three motherless children behind, one of whom will never know his father either. and if the government says she cannot have an abortion, even if childbirth would be life-threatening, is that not murder.

i am not pro-abortion, i am pro-choice, because i think there are some situations that warrant an abortion. i cannot imagine every possible situation. so i think it is the choice of the person carrying the baby. and if she makes a decision that God does not approve of, then she will face that when she dies. but i will not stand by while others force their values on her, especially if it means her life is in danger, not in America, because that is what freedom and liberty are, the right to choose. others may choose whatever they like according to their own beliefs, but they may not make decisions for everyone else based on a personal belief.
 
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ace85

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Thanks for all the responses, everybody. :)

I find it interesting that most of the Christians that posted here have the Republican icon. I'm not saying that all Repubs are bad, and I don't want to turn this into a political thread. I'm just saying that almost all Christians (in America) are conservatives and have a right-wing worldview, and that clashes with my progressive beliefs. I will start a thread on the political forum explaining more.

As for me being pro-choice, I don't see what's wrong with it. Like the above poster, I'm not pro-abortion at all, I'm pro-choice. I believe that women should have the choice of whether or not to continue a pregnancy, and there are many cases where abortion is the only option. There are some cases where the woman's life is in immediate danger if she continues the pregnancy, or the fetus may have little to no chance to survive outside of the womb. There are also the cases of rape, incest, or teen pregnancy where having an abortion may be the best option. Adoption isn't usually a realistic option because there are literally thousands of Children in foster care right now and most will be there until they reach legal age (17 or 18 in most states.) I don't like the idea of abortion, but it is a necessary "evil."
 
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Letalis

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I see it as if the mother is in danger, then abortion would be alright. Not rape, or any other circumstance. You have to remember that this unborn child is a life. A mother DOESN'T have the right to murder her child. How could you suggest otherwise? Abortion now has become just another form of birth control. And that SICKENS me.
 
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LegomasterJC

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Your problem is more with today's church than it is with true Christianity.
There is a point to tolerance. Where do you draw the line?
It is not for us to judge people's sins. God does that. But that does not mean that we should condone the sins of the world or agree with them at all.
 
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The Midge

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ace85 said:
One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

I grew up in a Christian church where intolerance and ignorance were considered good things, and tolerance, knowledge, logic, and reason were seen as bad. One of the big things that turned me off Christianity is that what was being pushed by evangelicals as the "Christian Agenda" was so contrary to Christ's message. Jesus never said to be intolerant and ignorant and pro-war, he said to "love your neighbor as yourself" and even to "love your enemies, and do good to those who curse you." It seems like modern evangelical Christianity is so far from Christ's message, and has become synonymous with the "right wing agenda."
Perhaps you should hang out on some of the liberal Christianity forums to get a flavour of the other wings of the church. You could also investigate the mennonite traditions and Soujourners magazine or read Christian Authors such as Campolo and Sider. These are also of an evangelical tradition but put the emphasis on social action rather than personal morality. In some sense our corporate concerns are more important than our private concerns because of their impact on others. However the personal relationship with God is also important because unless we learn love from God we can not love our fellow with any real depth.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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ace85 said:
One problem I have with Christianity is that (at least in the USA), the vast majority of Christians are part of the Religious Right and a lot of them promote bigotry and have the view that tolerance is a bad thing. They also think that progressives (or "liberals") are evil and immoral.

I consider myself progressive, I'm pro-tolerance, pro-peace, pro-choice, pro-equal rights, anti-war, and anti-discrimination. I also accept modern science (including evolution) and don't believe that a literal interpretation of the bible has all the answers. In other words, all of the things that Christianity is against.

No. Some expressions of Christianity are against these things, but not all. Many Christians (the vocal ones in the US) are right wing and all the things you assume, but it's by no means universal, and should not be a problem for you with Christianity - it just means that right wing fundamentalism is not going to be an expression of the faith that would work for you.

Check out Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo for a version of Christianity you may find less problematic. There are plenty of rabid fundamentalists who will give you a list of reasons why these guys are in league with the devil, but take no notice.

I grew up in a Christian church where intolerance and ignorance were considered good things, and tolerance, knowledge, logic, and reason were seen as bad. One of the big things that turned me off Christianity is that what was being pushed by evangelicals as the "Christian Agenda" was so contrary to Christ's message. Jesus never said to be intolerant and ignorant and pro-war, he said to "love your neighbor as yourself" and even to "love your enemies, and do good to those who curse you." It seems like modern evangelical Christianity is so far from Christ's message, and has become synonymous with the "right wing agenda."

Then don't have anything to do with modern evangelical Christianity, which is only one small subset of Christianity as a whole. I think you'd probably find friends in the Episcopal church - hey, we've even got gay bishops ;)
 
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sinner/SAVED

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I agree with you on most issues. I am neither pro-choice nor anti-abortion. I cannot make that decision for anyone. (Even if I disagree with their decision). I believe the problem is that the Christians that you describe are just the most vocal. They have the majority of the publicity even if not the majority of Christians on their side.
 
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Reformationist

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TheMdude said:
Why is abortion bad, but the death penalty is ok?

You compare two things that have no basis for comparison other than that they both result in a loss of life. The paradox you seek to create isn't rational because you are unjustifiably grouping two issues as one based on their results, i.e., loss of life. The former, abortion, is bad because it is the an act that runs contrary to the sanctity God places on human life and the efforts we are commanded to make to preserve life when possible. The latter, capital punishment, is in accordance with God's divine Law as it relates to the proper administration of justice against those who break certain laws that were given for our protection.

God bless
 
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