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One piece, the Kalam

anonymous person

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“If the universe comes into being, then there exists an efficient cause which is responsible for bringing the universe into being.”

This proposition is the first premise in a version of the Kalam.

Universe signifying as Vilenkin states, "the entire connected spacetime region."--Alex V.

Comes into being, assuming an A-Theory of time, can be explicated as follows: for any entity e and time t,

e comes into being at t if and only if (i) e exists at t, (ii) t is the first time at which e exists, (iii) there is no state of affairs in the actual world in which e exists timelessly, and (iv) e’s existing at t is a tensed fact. (This explication courtesy of Dr. Craig over at www.reasonablefaith.org)

Efficient cause signifying that state of affairs responsible for bringing the universe into existence.

Responsible for bringing into being signifying as Aristotle does, the efficient cause of something i.e. that agent which brings about an effect.

Using these terms, we can provide an example of this.

E. If a computer comes into being, then there exists an efficient cause which is responsible for bringing the computer into existence.

This seems true. At least more plausible than its negation. The metaphysical intuition that from nothing, nothing comes leads us to concluding that computers do not pop into being without an efficient cause, but that they exist because somebody took some computer parts and put them together to make a functioning computer.

In this case we have three distinct causes (Aristotle). The efficient, the material, and the final.

The efficient is the personal agent who assembles the material (plastic, metal, rubber) for the final end that it be used for computing purposes.

But in this case, we rightly recognize that the material cause itself, owes its existence to a cause. The plastic, metal and rubber did not just come into being sans causal conditions. The three are derived from natural elements found in the earth. But we rightly recognize that these elements, and the earth in which they are found, did not just come into being sans causal conditions. The earth owes its existence to something outside of itself, something other than itself. We don't conclude that the earth popped into being without a cause, or that it caused itself to come into being, or that it is eternally existing uncaused. There was some state of affairs causally prior to the earth coming into being which caused it to come into being, i.e. the various events occurring in galaxy formations etc. If the film of the history of the universe is rewound, we observe a reversal of the expansion of the spacetime region down to a theoretical singularity. There was no spacetime region, then there was. There was no matter, then there was.

When I examine the data and then examine the worldviews which attempt to make heads or tails out of this data, the worldview that denies that there was an efficient cause of all of this seems to me to be untenable. I am not persuaded that the spacetime region just popped into being without any causal conditions. Can I prove that it did not pop into being sans causal conditions. I sure can't. Do I know with certainty that it did not? I sure don't. Are these questions meaningless and pointless to me? They sure aren't. Does this prove that the God of Christianity created the universe, not at all.

What it does do for me, is point me, like so many little bread crumbs along a path obscured by my line of sight ending at the horizon, to a reality beyond the universe.

This is one piece, of the cumulative case, for my worldview.
 
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durangodawood

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....e comes into being at t if and only if (i) e exists at t, (ii) t is the first time at which e exists, (iii) there is no state of affairs in the actual world in which e exists timelessly, and (iv) e’s existing at t is a tensed fact.....
What if the universe itself exists in a timeless realm (perhaps among other universes) while all the space/matter "within" the universe operates 'in' time?

What are the implications of that for the argument?
 
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anonymous person

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What if the universe itself exists in a timeless realm (perhaps among other universes) while all the space/matter "within" the universe operates 'in' time?

What are the implications of that for the argument?

If I understand this question aright, it is analogous to asking what are the implications for the Kalam assuming a B-Theory of time and is a really good question.

The implication would be that the universe never comes into being at all, for the argument assumes an A-Theory of time in which there is the objective reality of temporal becoming. Things come into and go out of existence. Things that are real exist wholly in the present and endure through time from one present moment to the next. Thus, on an A-Theory of time there is a dynamism about reality, a constant becoming of reality in time.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/beginning-to-exist#ixzz3xRTlJ0OH
 
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bhsmte

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If I understand this question aright, it is analogous to asking what are the implications for the Kalam assuming a B-Theory of time and is a really good question.

The implication would be that the universe never comes into being at all, for the argument assumes an A-Theory of time in which there is the objective reality of temporal becoming. Things come into and go out of existence. Things that are real exist wholly in the present and endure through time from one present moment to the next. Thus, on an A-Theory of time there is a dynamism about reality, a constant becoming of reality in time.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/beginning-to-exist#ixzz3xRTlJ0OH

The theory also assumes, that a God doesn't need a cause and has always existed.

Special pleading at it's best and when it comes down to it; if you don't have objective evidence on your side, special pleading and assumptions without evidence, come in mighty handy.
 
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durangodawood

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If I understand this question aright, it is analogous to asking what are the implications for the Kalam assuming a B-Theory of time and is a really good question.

The implication would be that the universe never comes into being at all, for the argument assumes an A-Theory of time in which there is the objective reality of temporal becoming. Things come into and go out of existence. Things that are real exist wholly in the present and endure through time from one present moment to the next. Thus, on an A-Theory of time there is a dynamism about reality, a constant becoming of reality in time.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/beginning-to-exist#ixzz3xRTlJ0OH
Well, I dont know how an eternal "universe realm" (where universes exist) necessarily implies that time within a universe must be B-theory. There's no solid reason why events inside an 'eternal' universe couldnt operate in A-theory time.

My sense is that nailing down the nature of time within universes and for universes themselves simply involves WAY to much speculation for the purposes of robust argument..... (unless and until we learn a lot more).
 
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anonymous person

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The theory also assumes, that a God doesn't need a cause and has always existed.

A-Theory is a theory of time and thus makes no assumptions about God.

Special pleading at it's best and when it comes down to it; if you don't have objective evidence on your side, special pleading and assumptions without evidence, come in mighty handy.

The argument depends on an A-Theory of time. If the proponent of the Kalam is speaking with someone who is a B-Theorist, then the proponent of the Kalam would need to provide separate evidence and arguments for the A-Theory. This is what contemporary defenders of the argument have done.

I think what you mean to say is that proponents of the Kalam engage in special pleading because they will say something like, "the cause of the universe is uncaused and is eternal etc. etc."

This is not special pleading because the atheist says the same thing about the universe.

The fact of the matter remains. Something has always existed. Something is the first or prime mover. It is either the universe or non-universe.

Unless of course you want to think that the universe just came into being literally from nothing by nothing.
 
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durangodawood

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...This is not special pleading because the atheist says the same thing about the universe....
Nooo. the 'atheist' simply says that we dont know these things about the universe, that it could be this way or that way for all we know, and therefore we cant create useful arguments along these lines.
 
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bhsmte

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A-Theory is a theory of time and thus makes no assumptions about God.



The argument depends on an A-Theory of time. If the proponent of the Kalam is speaking with someone who is a B-Theorist, then the proponent of the Kalam would need to provide separate evidence and arguments for the A-Theory. This is what contemporary defenders of the argument have done.

I think what you mean to say is that proponents of the Kalam engage in special pleading because they will say something like, "the cause of the universe is uncaused and is eternal etc. etc."

This is not special pleading because the atheist says the same thing about the universe.

The fact of the matter remains. Something has always existed. Something is the first or prime mover. It is either the universe or non-universe.

Unless of course you want to think that the universe just came into being literally from nothing by nothing.

Not quite, but I understand why you need to twist things.
 
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Percivale

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Timeless is synonymous with changeless. So a universe could not come into being within a timeless multiverse, though it could in an eternal one.
Obviously an eternal being does not need a cause. I don't get how atheists haven't all realized that yet.

At the least, it is clear that the universe did come into being, and that something caused it which is far beyond our scientific understanding. To say that God created it is no more extraordinary a claim than any of the other possible causes one might claim.
 
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durangodawood

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Timeless is synonymous with changeless. So a universe could not come into being within a timeless multiverse, though it could in an eternal one.
Obviously an eternal being does not need a cause. I don't get how atheists haven't all realized that yet.

At the least, it is clear that the universe did come into being, and that something caused it which is far beyond our scientific understanding. To say that God created it is no more extraordinary a claim than any of the other possible causes one might claim.
1. People talking like they know the rules by which a realm of universes must or must-not operate. Its ridiculous. There's no basis for knowing these things.

2. To say God did create the universe is vastly more extraordinary a claim than to say there may be other explanations.
 
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anonymous person

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Nooo. the 'atheist' simply says that we dont know these things about the universe, that it could be this way or that way for all we know, and therefore we cant create useful arguments along these lines.

Either the universe, in one form or another has always existed or not.

There is no third option.

You understand that right?
 
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Percivale

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1. People talking like they know the rules by which a realm of universes must or must-not operate. Its ridiculous. There's no basis for knowing these things.

2. To say God did create the universe is vastly more extraordinary a claim than to say there may be other explanations.
There is most definitely a basis for believing the basic laws of logic, even when they are applied to distant concepts. To say a timeless object changed or caused something is simply contradictory.
To say this incredibly complex, wonderful universe came about with no intelligent input is an extraordinary claim. To say God (an eternal, conscious, creative being) created it is also extraordinary, but less so, since most people have believed in a god throughout history and regularly report meeting him (near death experiences, etc.) Those are the only two options; either the universe came about with intelligent input or without it.
 
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anonymous person

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Piggy backing on what Percivale has said, I want to draw people's attention back to the latter portion of my opening post.

In it I made it clear that this data is in no manner conclusive. Nor does this argument compel rational assent.

What it does do is function for me, as clues to the existence of some state of affairs beyond the natural, physical, and temporal.
 
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durangodawood

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Either the universe, in one form or another has always existed or not.

There is no third option.

You understand that right?
I understand. But I'm not sure I agree. Words like "always" are so tied into our intuitive understanding of time. I'm not sure that our intuitive understanding can necessarilty be applied to realms that are possibly quite beyond imagining.

Basically, thats why Kalam and similar strategies ring hollow. They presume vastly too much.
 
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durangodawood

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....What it does do is function for me, as clues to the existence of some state of affairs beyond the natural, physical, and temporal.
I dont see at all how the argument turns the mind toward ANY state of affairs aside from that what our intuition, or desire, or faith, pre-disposes us to.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Timeless is synonymous with changeless. So a universe could not come into being within a timeless multiverse, though it could in an eternal one.
Obviously an eternal being does not need a cause. I don't get how atheists haven't all realized that yet.

At the least, it is clear that the universe did come into being, and that something caused it which is far beyond our scientific understanding. To say that God created it is no more extraordinary a claim than any of the other possible causes one might claim.

If god caused a universe, then he cannot be logically timeless/changeless.

He would have to go from a point of existing and not creating a universe, to a point of existing and creating a universe (effecting a change). As a temporal being, he's subject to the exact same problems as the universe.
 
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variant

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At the least, it is clear that the universe did come into being, and that something caused it which is far beyond our scientific understanding. To say that God created it is no more extraordinary a claim than any of the other possible causes one might claim.

Argument from ignorance.

Since we can't differentiate between "some extraordinary event" and "God" the argument doesn't favor anything other than our ignorance (even if we grant all other premises and logic about how universes exist).

If you base your conclusions about the divine upon such an argument then I welcome you to the agnostic community.

All arguments from ignorance demonstrate is the ignorance.
 
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Davian

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“If the universe comes into being,
If that can even be properly expressed in english...
then there exists
or existed...
an efficient cause
Why need it be efficient?
which is responsible for bringing the universe into being.”

This proposition is the first premise in a version of the Kalam.

Universe signifying as Vilenkin states, "the entire connected spacetime region."--Alex V.

Comes into being, assuming an A-Theory of time, can be explicated as follows: for any entity e and time t,

e comes into being at t if and only if (i) e exists at t, (ii) t is the first time at which e exists, (iii) there is no state of affairs in the actual world in which e exists timelessly, and (iv) e’s existing at t is a tensed fact.

Efficient cause signifying that state of affairs responsible for bringing the universe into existence.

Responsible for bringing into being signifying as Aristotle does, the efficient cause of something i.e. that agent which brings about an effect.

Using these terms, we can provide an example of this.

E. If a computer comes into being, then there exists an efficient cause which is responsible for bringing the computer into existence.

This seems true.
I don't see the comparison.
At least more plausible than its negation.
Channeling WLC, I see.

Always have a false dichotomy at the ready. :)
The metaphysical intuition that from nothing, nothing comes leads us to concluding that computers do not pop into being without an efficient cause, but that they exist because somebody took some computer parts and put them together to make a functioning computer.

In this case we have three distinct causes (Aristotle). The efficient, the material, and the final.

The efficient is the personal agent who assembles the material (plastic, metal, rubber) for the final end that it be used for computing purposes.

But in this case, we rightly recognize that the material cause itself, owes its existence to a cause. The plastic, metal and rubber did not just come into being sans causal conditions. The three are derived from natural elements found in the earth. But we rightly recognize that these elements, and the earth in which they are found, did not just come into being sans causal conditions. The earth owes its existence to something outside of itself, something other than itself. We don't conclude that the earth popped into being without a cause, or that it caused itself to come into being, or that it is eternally existing uncaused. There was some state of affairs causally prior to the earth coming into being which caused it to come into being, i.e. the various events occurring in galaxy formations etc. If the film of the history of the universe is rewound, we observe a reversal of the expansion of the spacetime region down to a theoretical singularity. There was no spacetime region, then there was. There was no matter, then there was.

When I examine the data
Are you an astrophysicist?
and then examine the worldviews which attempt to make heads or tails out of this data, the worldview that denies that there was an efficient cause of all of this seems to me to be untenable.
I have no such worldview.
I am not persuaded that the spacetime region just popped into being without any causal conditions.
I am not persuaded by speculation either way.
Can I prove that it did not pop into being sans causal conditions. I sure can't. Do I know with certainty that it did not? I sure don't. Are these questions meaningless and pointless to me? They sure aren't.
Not when you are working backwards from the conclusion you are starting with.
Does this prove that the God of Christianity created the universe, not at all.
Indeed. Arguments such as these are based on the acceptance of modern cosmology, which, from what I gather, is incompatible with stories of the "God" character in the bible that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old.

Do you accept modern cosmology? Or are you simply cherry picking the bits that suit you?
What it does do for me, is point me, like so many little bread crumbs along a path obscured by my line of sight ending at the horizon, to a reality beyond the universe.

This is one piece, of the cumulative case, for my worldview.
A crumb indeed. Do you have anything else that might support your worldview?
 
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