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staff edit uphill battle said:Quote edited out by staff (Uphill Battle.) No violation, simply quoted staff deleted text.
That does not make it untrue. Funny how when you insult, defame, and question the character of Calvinists, that is "on topic", but when we answer your false and egregious charges, then it's "off topic". And of course, in your view, any "off topic" post is untrue by definition (yours). The lack of logical thinking and consistent application in your view and replies is truly appalling.Folks, post #60 is an ad homenim, devoid of on topic content.
ROFL!ROFL! Since the recent removal of a post, Van's is post #61!Folks, post #61 is an ad homenim, devoid of on topic content.
Posting fantasies like this does not address the subject. If you disagree with Calvinism, fine, disagree. But do so from scripture, not by taunting and posting juvenile speculations, which are not grounded in truth, but in pointless needling.It is fun to imagine what Paul`s encounter with the Phillipian jailer (Acts 16-29-31) would have been like from a Calvinist perspective.
jailer "What must I do to be saved."
Paul "Do?? Nothing! In fact what you are suggesting is a response on your part which amounts to salvation by the works of the law. Sorry but all you can "do" is see if the Spirit irresistibly regenerates you then you are saved. You are either elect or you aren`t, and have asked a most ill informed question but of course you knew no better.
OR
jailer "What must I do to be saved"
Paul "Huh? You already are saved brother! The fact that you even show this interest, ask this question, is proof that you have been released from your incessant evil and total depravity through regeneration, and as a consequence are born again and possess the Spirit of adoption. Welcome to the body and kingdom of God."
You are also advised herein, that when you hear this, your own vessel of dishonor will be hardened by Gods Words against the truth of this disclosure. And that too is Gods working against THEM in your flesh.
Maybe you chousl have actually read it before you quoted it, Van. It says precuisely what I've been saying, and what you'd like to constitute as "evasion". Inability of will, dude. We're free to, but we won't. That's why when we try and leave off sinning, we don't. It isn't a matter of can't, it's a matter of won't. We demonstrate our "free will" whenever we sin, because we freely choose to sin. (God would have no reason to be unhappy with our sinning if we had no choice in the matter.)In the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability Is stated as follows: -- "Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation
Truer words were never spoken.so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." [Ch. IX, sec. III ]
You mean as you've said, falsely, several times. The trick is that you'd prefer to argue against what you claim we believe rather than what we believe, because then you can "refute" it. That. of course, is dishonest, but hey, if "winning" is everything, well....As I have pointed out repeatedly, the RT defenders deny their own doctrines
Inability of will, as you just quoted the WCF as saying. We won't choose life. How many times have I said that? And because of that, if God doesn't save us, we're done for. We've said nothing else.They say, that fallen man has no ability to choose life
Sure are. Nothing hindering us but our own unwillingness., yet is free to choose life
Sorry, that's your baloney, and you're conclusion is as bogus as your claims. We won't, will not, choose to save ourselves, even though we are free to if we so choose., but the fact is the doctrine is that those who have not been regenerated have only one choice, death, for they are unable to choose life. QED
Really? And this before the death and resurrection of our Lord? Dang, in your economy did we really need a Savior? I mean, from the sound of it. all our Lord needed to do was shove those Pharisees aside and let folks go striding into the Kingdom under their own steam, just as they were intent on doing. People could just call on their own intrinsic goodness and Free Will and choose to be saved under the Law.Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is a false doctrine. Unregenerate folks received the gospel and were entering the kingdom,
So there ya are, then! Their own efforts were sufficient to save them. Sp tell me agains why you reckon it was that our Lord had to die? It doesn't seem like your doctrine would require that, since folks were altogether able to save themselves without God's intervention.And their unregenerate effort was sufficient
You pretty much undercut any credibility you might have had with this statement. Saying that if we don't receive what you say is evidence of some sort of hardening by God is rather self-serving.
Sorry, ain't buying it....
Despite what it says, right? I mean, hey, it can't mean what it says, 'cause that would sink your nonsensical doctrine without a trace. What Scripture says has to be made to fit the doctrine, right Van? So never mind that the Bible says that God has chosen us from before the foundation of the world. What it really means (according to Van's Doctrine to which the Word must be made to conform) is that we weren't chosen from before the foundation of the world. And that, by cracky, is that! Van and the Arminians (Baptist Division) has spoken.And again Ephesians 1:4 does not suggest in the slightest that people were chosen individually
I know, your doctrine says so. But that's still what the Bible says, deny it all you like.The "it means individuals were chosen before creation" view is impossible
Since Baptists don't believe it. Gotcha.I have demonstrated that RT is an horrendous doctrine
Let's see now. If sinners will not save themselves, and Christ intervenes to same then anyway, then Christ is not compassionate. I don't think that's official Baptist logic, but it is, apparently, Van's.robbing Christ of His compassion for the lost.
Which is, of course, sufficient. The verse says what they say, of course. They don't now, however, "mean" what you say they "mean", the meanings you ascribe to them having nothing whatsoever to do wuth what they actually say. We've been over that, repeatedly.Van the verses you cite do not say what you say they say.
...the man behind the curtain.Pay no attention to
Nothing you will do, unless God changes your heart. That's right. If God doesn't intervene to save you, you not only won't be saved, you won't want to be saved.Here is RT in a nutshell, you were either saved or damned from all eternity, for all eternity, and nothing you do during your life will alter that outcome for yourelf or for your loved ones.
Nah, it's the "we saved ourselves, but we do want to thank God for having made it possible" doctrine that's baloney. Yeah, I know, everybody wants to think they've saved themselves, and the RT doctrine doesn't allow for the exaltation of the holy *I*, but that's how it is.It's a false doctrine.
Amen. And if whosoever won't...?Whoever believes in Him shall not perish
You mean the specious doctrine that alleges that man saves himself through his own virtue and his own sagacity, or perhaps through his own good luck, and that God is simply a passive observer? That horrendous, false, nasty, human-centered doctrine?Lets return to the topic, the horrendous doctine.
Depends on what you mean by "receive". If it means "hear", then I doubt that even your sect believes the claim to be true.Is salvation available to all who receive the gospel? Not according to the horrendous doctrine.
A falsehood. We simply attribute the faith properly, as the result of God quickening our hearts, and not, as y'all do, as the result of individual virtue. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.Does God credit our faith in Christ as righteousness? Not according to the horrendous doctrine.
God chooses who He wills, Van. He doesn't have to follow the criteria you've set for Him.Does God choose believers, who love God and are rich in faith? Not according to the horrendous doctrine.
At this point I have no earthly idea what you're babbling about.The horrendous doctrine robs Christ of His compassion for the lost for His love is limited to the lost sheep of Israel.
Based on your rather creative "interpretations" of what the Bible "means", which involved attributing "meanings" to some Scriptures that wuold have startled and amazed the writers, and directly contradicting others. But if that's the only way you can keep the Bible from contradicting your doctrine, then I reckon you have to do it.But I have good news. The horrendous doctrine is unbiblical.
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