One God, not Three... question.

[Nessie]

This question is for those who believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the SAME person, NOT three. Please do not make this a debate.

I was in a debate a while back about whether or not the three were one, or if they were three different entities. I was raised Apostolic/UPC so I've always known them to be one. But someone asked me that if they are all one, who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane. Now I've always believed that Jesus is God, just in the human form. How do I answer a question like that?

 

[enoch son]

Let me ask you a question? When you pray in a garden who do you pray to?

 

[Nessie]

I pray to no one but God. But Jesus is God. So was he praying to himself?

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I pray to no one but God. But Jesus is God. So was he praying to himself?

1Kings 8:27 - But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Yet a mortal body of flesh and blood can contain Him? How did Jesus, Himself pray when He prayed? "Father..." This in no way denies the divinity of Jesus, and the fact that it is difficult for us to comprehend is testimony to the fact that God is so far beyond our capacity for comprehension that His nature is sure to confound us.

To answer your question, I would answer, "He was praying to His Father."

 

[Father Rick]

Nessie...

I am posting a copy of the Athanasian Creed...

This is the early church's 'official' explanation of how this worked:

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved,
before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [universal] faith;
Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this:
That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one,
the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible,
but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge
every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son;
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore or after another;
none is greater or less than another.
But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity
and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead,
and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of that manhood into God.
One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
and shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic [universal] faith,
which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. Amen.

The difficulty is that we as limited human beings are trying to understand the infinite nature of God. We can do the best we can to understand and explain, but there comes a point where we just have to admit this is a mystery of the faith and beyond our capacity to fully understand.

 

[riverpastor]

I agree with Father Rick that it is a question of His Eternality and that we just can't explain it. I used to use the analogy of H20 in the form of steam, liquid and ice. But the analogy can be argued from the other side as well. Which actually makes them both - equal.

Now how confusing can this be? I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. Yet, to say this also portrays the personage of God Himself (F, S, HG)!

He is One! He is three! In Revelation, it states there are seven Spirits of God!!!

Does that make it, let's see, six, seven, eight, nine altogether???

Of course not! But remember, the Word says that Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily...

 

[alexeeah]

Lu 3:21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

So if Jesus was in the water, the holy spirit was the dove, and God spoke from Heaven then they are obviously three seperate but wait..........

Joh 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Here we find that Jesus and God are one

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.1jo 5:7


And here we find that all three the father son and holy spirit are one.........hmmmm three are one three are seperate confusing but definately scriptural

 

[Nessie]

Well, I did a lil internet search, and this is what I came up with.

Jesus prayed to God because, even though he was God, when he made himself man (Jesus), he put certain restrictions on himself that way he would have to live the same kind of life as humans. Therefore, since he had to live like a human, he had to pray to God, like humans did.

Is that right?

 

[tyr0ne]

The best example about the Trinity I can give is:
Water Steam and Ice. All are the same thing just in different forms. He prayed to God, because for all of eternity (up untill that point ) The 'three' had always been together. The love that is between the Father, Son and Spirit is indescribable. Now with Jesus being on the earth while He was still one with the Father, He was seperated from Him in a sence and still needed to pray to Him just as we do.

And like Father Rick said: We can do the best we can to understand and explain, but there comes a point where we just have to admit this is a mystery of the faith and beyond our capacity to fully understand.

 

[shawn_h76]

Hello Nessie,

To answer your quesiton Jesus was praying in the Spirit.
What? have you ever prayed in the spirit.
This is a good verse.
John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jesus said to nichodemoius he was on earth and in heaven at the same time.
Jesus said that the Father was in him, and the father does all the works.
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus is the one and only true God. Its simple:

There is one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Isaiah 44
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

This one God shares his glory with nobody and allows no other being from heaven to be worshipped.
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Isaiah 42
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
This one God became flesh. Jesus Christ is clearly the one and only true God. For Jesus is worhsipped in the bible , and even called worthy of glory.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Revelation 1:8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
1 Timothy 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Revelation 5
12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
If Jesus is not God the father,Yahovah, then why didn't he rebuke the elders when they said he is worthy of glory? Or why didnt the FATHER, Yahovah rebuke them?
Angels rebuke men when they fell down to worship them.
isiahah 42:8 I am the LORD [Yahovah]: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

A wise man wrote here recently:

God made a law that no man could fulfill.
God came in the flesh to fulfill His Own Law.
He offered Himself as a sacricife to Himself and accepted the offering.
He shed His Own Blood to enact the Covenant with Himself. Offered and the accepted the Blood Himself.
He places believers in Him by Himself.

The major implication in that He cut Covenant with Himself is that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that we can add to it to procure our salvation. We must trust Him alone for Salvation and Redemption. There truly is no other Way!

And as for our lives as His disciples. Paul said, As you have received Christ, so walk ye in Him.

How did we receive Him? By faith through Grace.
How do we continue to live in obedience to Him? By faith through Grace.

I want to jump up and down, waive my arms and hollar! There are just no words to describe this here. This is just more proof that the 3 are one and also separate.

 

[Standyman51]

If I may, Nessie, offer my understanding of the Trinity:
I believe the difficulty extends from the use of the word "one" which in Hebrew is "Echad" and in Greek is "Hen"
The word "one" has more than one usual meaning. It can mean a singularity, as UPC takes it to mean of God. The word "one" also means "agreement" or "united" as in a man and woman being one flesh.
Trinitarians use this word "one" in this sense of "unity" and apply it to the Godhead. This use does not disturb the meaning of "one" for God.
Ice, water and steam analogy is a better UPC argument than a trinitarian one because it is different manifestations of the same element (singularity).
So, Trinitarians would say that Jesus is praying to another whom He calls His Father and with whom He shares oneness (unity).

 

[Screamin'Eagle]

ok thanks guys now im confused

 

[Nessie]

I get the water/steam/ice thing... that it's the same thing but in three different forms. So God is God, just in three different forms. Meaning that all three of the forms are the same thing. But I still don't get who Jesus was praying to. If all three are him, he would be praying to himself.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Nessie,

the "trinity" is a very difficult doctrine to explain because the fact is that it, like God himself, is something which is simply beyond the realm of human experience, and thus something we can only see vaguely and guess at.

However, it is not correct to say that the trinity teaches that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three seperate Gods, or even three seperate entities or beings, that is actually a seperate view which is rejected by those who believe in the "tri-une" nature of God.

The "trinity" doctrine is a human attempt to portray the fact that God is at the same time three and also one. He is singular, and plural at the same time. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all real people, not one person pretending to be three diferent people, but at the same time they are one God and one entity. There is no easy way to explain this. I understand that you may not agree with it, but don't disagree with it for the wrong reasons we don't believe in three seperate Gods.

 

[JimB]

This question is for those who believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the SAME person, NOT three. Please do not make this a debate.

I was in a debate a while back about whether or not the three were one, or if they were three different entities. I was raised Apostolic/UPC so I've always known them to be one. But someone asked me that if they are all one, who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane. Now I've always believed that Jesus is God, just in the human form. How do I answer a question like that?

When a man and woman unite in marriage the TWO persons become ONE:

Mark 10

7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.


​

Did this happen in a literal sense or in a spiritual sense? When you married did you physically merge into one being?

Hardly! Even though a superficial reading of Mark 10.8 would lead you think that would happen. The two become one only in the sense of union. You remained two people, two personalities, yet you were one, you shared the same name. Civil law now sees you as “one,” family. When children are born out of the union, they bear the same name and privileges. In that sense, also, two become one.

God is Three but He is also One in the same way. Marriage, then, simply reflects the divine union of three in one.

\o/

 

[Standyman51]

When a man and woman unite in marriage the TWO persons become ONE:

Mark 10



7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.




​

Did this happen in a literal sense or in a spiritual sense? When you married did you physically merge into one being?



Hardly! Even though a superficial reading of Mark 10.8 would lead you think that would happen. The two become one only in the sense of union. You remained two people, two personalities, yet you were one, you shared the same name. Civil law now sees you as “one,” family. When children are born out of the union, they bear the same name and privileges. In that sense, also, two become one.

God is Three but He is also One in the same way. Marriage, then, simply reflects the divine union of three in one.

\o/

Exactly right. This is how the Trinity is explained. This is how the word "one" in one God is to be taken.

 

[Asaph]

Nessie,

the "trinity" is a very difficult doctrine to explain because the fact is that it, like God himself, is something which is simply beyond the realm of human experience, and thus something we can only see vaguely and guess at.

However, it is not correct to say that the trinity teaches that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three seperate Gods, or even three seperate entities or beings, that is actually a seperate view which is rejected by those who believe in the "tri-une" nature of God.

The "trinity" doctrine is a human attempt to portray the fact that God is at the same time three and also one. He is singular, and plural at the same time. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all real people, not one person pretending to be three diferent people, but at the same time they are one God and one entity. There is no easy way to explain this. I understand that you may not agree with it, but don't disagree with it for the wrong reasons we don't believe in three seperate Gods.

Very well put ST. I used to have what I thought was a good analogy for the trinity, but the more I looked at it the more I realized it was just modalizim. So I've come to the conclusion that I'll just let God be who God says He is, and if He thinks I need a better understanding of the Trinity He'll give it to me.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

 

[cathy_07]

The best example about the Trinity I can give is:
Water Steam and Ice. All are the same thing just in different forms. He prayed to God, because for all of eternity (up untill that point ) The 'three' had always been together. The love that is between the Father, Son and Spirit is indescribable. Now with Jesus being on the earth while He was still one with the Father, He was seperated from Him in a sence and still needed to pray to Him just as we do.

And like Father Rick said: We can do the best we can to understand and explain, but there comes a point where we just have to admit this is a mystery of the faith and beyond our capacity to fully understand.

LOL! I was just about to give that example... but I believe a better way to say it is a glass of ice water with condensation on the glass. Often times you are more likely to see water that way than having to boil the water and all that good stuff to get the steam... but that doesn't really matter, it is an excellent analogy nonetheless and a perfect reperesentation of the different manifestations of God.

In addition, the Holy Spirit (our helper, counselor, and so on and... yeah) was sent to us by the father after Christ was no longer with us here on Earth (John 14:25-27). So try0ne is correct in his last statement

Ok, just my two bits...

 

[Johnny Be Good]

LOL! I was just about to give that example... but I believe a better way to say it is a glass of ice water with condensation on the glass. Often times you are more likely to see water that way than having to boil the water and all that good stuff to get the steam... but that doesn't really matter, it is an excellent analogy nonetheless and a perfect reperesentation of the different manifestations of God.

In addition, the Holy Spirit (our helper, counselor, and so on and... yeah) was sent to us by the father after Christ was no longer with us here on Earth (John 14:25-27). So try0ne is correct in his last statement

Ok, just my two bits...

Whoa! I never thought of that!

In OT times after the fall, (pre Jesus) if order for God to be united with His children here (us), HE enstated the LAW and could be personally here with us if folks had cleaned themselves up and offered sacrifices. Then there was Jesus--God with us--in His physical form, then came the Holy Spirit under Grace (New Covenant)--God IN us!

What's next?



Whoops--I hope I didn't just derail your thread!