One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity

Jipsah · Jun 14, 2022

BobRyan said:
a lot of Catholics are claiming that no one "gets" that Catholic Trinity teaching "sola scriptura" but rather you need the Catholic documents themselves.

Citation?
Now the fact, observed by me, is that Protestants all too often think of and describe the Trinity in modalist terms, and don't understand why anyone has an objection to it. In my favorite example, my Baptist SS teacher (I know, what was I doing in a Baptist church? Long ridiculous story.) compared the Trinity to: "Grandfather, Father, Son", "Me, Myself, I", and God simply acting in three different modes. I hazarded to point out that modalism was generally held to be a heresy, as was told "Well Brother Jipsah, we have to follow the Bible and not doctrines of men." I reckon he told me!

Anyhow, you seem to be pointedly avoiding the fact that the term "protestant" covers doctrinal positions running acoss the spectrum from DC to daylight. Anything you claim Protestants believe is true of some Protestants some where, and they're all free to make up the details as they go. Catholics as a whole have a fairly precise idea of what they're talking about when they refer to the Trinity, Protestants not so much, if at all.

It might help if you detailed how the SDA understanding of the Trinity differs from the RCC belief, and why. No good claiming yours is better than theirs unless you can say why.

Jipsah · Jun 14, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I assume you don’t disagree with the Nicene Creed?

I'd hedge my bets on that one, and I'd wager the ranch on the SDAs not accepting the Athanasian Creed.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jun 15, 2022

Jipsah said:
I'd hedge my bets on that one, and I'd wager the ranch on the SDAs not accepting the Athanasian Creed.

So right you are; the Athanasian Creed came about due to heretical teaching regarding the the nature of Christ's incarnation. While Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans and possibly some others have retained the Athanation Creed, few other than Confessional Lutherans and some religious orders in the CC know what it is, let alone use it. Most Churches have eliminated it from their service books because the "anathemas" are very contrary to "social justice" and the new wokeism that has infected once traditional and orthodox Christian Churches.

This past Sunday is the Feast of the Holy Trinity and is either recited or chanted in our Parishes annually, as we did at the National Synodical Convention this past week where I attended as a Lay Delegate from my Congregation. Almost 500 persons, mostly men, chanted it responsively with the celebrant.

It is the definitive statement of the Church Catholic regarding the Trinity, and it does pass the test of Scripture alone.

The Athanasian Creed

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2022

Jipsah said:
I'd hedge my bets on that one, and I'd wager the ranch on the SDAs not accepting the Athanasian Creed.

Particularly since the SDA church aligns itself with those denominations that say they are 'not creedal'.. Which includes Baptists and others.

BobRyan · Jun 15, 2022

How about this - as an example of what we do not find in scripture...

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.
The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.
The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit

The Liturgist said:
The thing is, as any mainstream Protestant theologian will tell you, those three bullet points are an essential aspect of the Trinitarian doctrine. .

Then they too would be stuck in the position of having to argue that the Trinity is not in scripture --

But I find it interesting that you are now affirming that bullet list when previously you said we should ignore the Catholic source that contains them. Hard to follow that logic.

ViaCrucis · Jun 15, 2022

BobRyan said:
How about this - as an example of what we do not find in scripture...

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.

The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.

The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit

Then they too would be stuck in the position of having to argue that the Trinity is not in scripture --

But I find it interesting that you are now affirming that bullet list when previously you said we should ignore the Catholic source that contains them. Hard to follow that logic.

If your personal interpretation of the Bible leads you to deny the Christian faith, then the problem isn't with the Christian faith but with your interpretation of the Bible.

To post here, Bob, you have to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Not your personal opinion about what the Trinity is, but the doctrine of the Trinity as it is. God's truth rules us, we don't rule it.

-CryptoLutheran

The Liturgist · Jun 15, 2022

BobRyan said:
How about this - as an example of what we do not find in scripture...

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.

The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.

The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit

Then they too would be stuck in the position of having to argue that the Trinity is not in scripture --

But I find it interesting that you are now affirming that bullet list when previously you said we should ignore the Catholic source that contains them. Hard to follow that logic.

In this case, the Catholic Encyclopedia happens to be somewhat relevant, although I disagree with it on the subject of the filioque (I believe the original version of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and thus maintain that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone).

However, aside from a few topics like this which are somewhat foundational, the fact remains the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia is both spectacularly out of date and entirely unsanctioned by the current Vatican administration. Unlike the Orthodox churches, which have changed little since the 1200s, the Roman Catholic Church underwent substantial change in the 20th century, and so using a book from 1911, official or not, to discuss what the Roman church believes or does not believe will not yield reliable results. You should use the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can find on vatican.va Those are the beliefs which are taught to Roman Catholic youths in Confirmation Class and to adult converts participating in the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) - so everyone in the Roman Catholic Church who is mentally capable of knowing that information, knows it.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jun 15, 2022

BobRyan said:
How about this - as an example of what we do not find in scripture...

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.

The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.

The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit

Then they too would be stuck in the position of having to argue that the Trinity is not in scripture --

But I find it interesting that you are now affirming that bullet list when previously you said we should ignore the Catholic source that contains them. Hard to follow that logic.

BobRyan said:
Particularly since the SDA church aligns itself with those denominations that say they are 'not creedal'.. Which includes Baptists and others.

Bob,

So, if you are indeed "anti-creedal", why are you working so hard to define a "Lone-Ranger" do-it-yourself creed?

BobRyan · Jun 17, 2022

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Bob,

So, if you are indeed "anti-creedal", why are you working so hard to define a "Lone-Ranger" do-it-yourself creed?

What "Creed" would that be??

"One God" Duet 6:4 in "Three persons" Matt 28:19 -- ???

BobRyan · Jun 17, 2022

The Liturgist said:
In this case, the Catholic Encyclopedia happens to be somewhat relevant, although I disagree with it on the subject of the filioque

I am not too surprised that non-catholics will be inclined to differ with Catholic teaching ..

The Liturgist said:
Unlike the Orthodox churches, which have changed little since the 1200s, the Roman Catholic Church underwent substantial change in the 20th centur

Comparing orhtodox to catholic is beyond the scope of this thread - I have a thread showing examples of orthodox liturgy requiring catholics wanting to join the Orthodox church - to publically select specific catholic doctrines and pronounce them heresy before being allowed to join the Orthodox church.

BobRyan · Jun 17, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
If your personal interpretation of the Bible leads you to deny the Christian faith,

Nice story - but that did not happen - as it turns out.

I am sure we can all be grateful for that.

The Liturgist · Jun 17, 2022

BobRyan said:
Comparing orhtodox to catholic is beyond the scope of this thread - I have a thread showing examples of orthodox liturgy requiring catholics wanting to join the Orthodox church - to publically select specific catholic doctrines and pronounce them heresy before being allowed to join the Orthodox church.

Usually Catholics are received by Chrismation rather than Confession these days, but yes, that liturgy does exist.

Andrewn · Jun 18, 2022

BobRyan said:
"One God" Duet 6:4 in "Three persons" Matt 28:19 -- ???

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Note that there is one name, not 3 names. God is not a committee formed of 3 separate persons.

BobRyan said:
I am not too surprised that non-catholics will be inclined to differ with Catholic teaching ..

Actually, some Protestants accept the Filioque, others do not. But the bottomline is that all would accept:

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.
The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.
The Father actively spirates the Holy Spirit.

Those who do not accept that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.

BobRyan · Jun 18, 2022

Andrewn said:
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Note that there is one name, not 3 names. God is not a committee formed of 3 separate persons.

The "One God in three persons" part of the doctrine - is the single area where all sides agree. I take it you differ on that one too???

BobRyan said:
From – catholic.com Explaining the Trinity

in the Catholic church –

The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of “God the Father”.

The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.

The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit

-----
========================== PROTESTANT Trinity

From: Protestantism - Wikipedia

“The Trinity is the belief that God is one God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son ( Jesus ), and God the Holy Spirit.

"Protestants who adhere to the Nicene Creed believe in three persons ( God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as one God.”

Or are you focused on "three separate persons" as opposed to "three non-separate persons"?? hmmm "non-separate"

"That they may be ONE as WE are ONE" John 17

You have free will and can define whatever you wish -- let me know when you find a "3 persons are one being" text in true "sola scriptura" fashion.

Jipsah · Jun 18, 2022

BobRyan said:
The "One God in three persons" part of the doctrine - is the single area where all sides agree. I take it you differ on that one too???

Kinda depends on what you mean when you say it, dunnit? The Catholics are good enough to say what they mean. SDAs seem to define it as "not what the Catholics mean". , which covers quite a lot of territory. I interpret it to mean "Protesant Modalism", which as best I can tell is the standard Protestant view of the Trinity at this point. And once again, I think all the Traditional groups find modalism to be untrue.

You have free will and can define whatever you wish -- let me know when you find a "3 persons are one being" text in true "sola scriptura" fashion.

JUst as soon as you proof-text your views of God in Father Mode, Son Mode, and Holy Spirit Mode.

BobRyan · Jun 20, 2022

Jipsah said:
JUst as soon as you proof-text your views of God in Father Mode, Son Mode, and Holy Spirit Mode.

I never point to "one God in three modes" as you just did. I point out scripture has "One God" Deut 6:4 in "three PERSONS" Matt 28:19. Your idea that "a person is merely a mode" is your own speculation - not mine.

Others appear to speculate that "a person is not a being" but rather that "three persons are a single being" which is also not in the Bible and a speculation that I don't find to be logical.

"That they may be ONE as WE are ONE" John 17:11,21

BobRyan · Jun 20, 2022

Andrewn said:
Actually, some Protestants accept the Filioque, others do not.

Filioque -- "the word inserted in the Western version of the Nicene Creed to assert the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son as well as from the Father, which is not admitted by the Eastern Church. It was one of the central issues in the Great Schism of 1054."

Andrewn · Jun 20, 2022

BobRyan said:
I never point to "one God in three modes" as you just did. I point out scripture has "One God" Deut 6:4 in "three PERSONS" Matt 28:19. Your idea that "a person is merely a mode" is your own speculation - not mine.

No, you never point to "one God in three modes" as @Jipsah did. I disagree with his conclusion. Your ideas are more likely Tritheist rather than Modalist.

BobRyan said:
Others appear to speculate that "a person is not a being" but rather that "three persons are a single being" which is also not in the Bible and a speculation that I don't find to be logical.

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,

"true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made."

The Nicene Creed - The Anglican Church of Canada

The Liturgist · Jun 20, 2022

BobRyan said:
I never point to "one God in three modes" as you just did. I point out scripture has "One God" Deut 6:4 in "three PERSONS" Matt 28:19. Your idea that "a person is merely a mode" is your own speculation - not mine.

Others appear to speculate that "a person is not a being" but rather that "three persons are a single being" which is also not in the Bible and a speculation that I don't find to be logical.

"That they may be ONE as WE are ONE" John 17:11,21

The problem is the Greek word ousios, translates not only to Essence but also to Being, and it is in the Nicene Creed, which is the Statement of Faith for this website. Thus the Creed can be translated as the Son being of One Being with the Father.

The Liturgist · Jun 20, 2022

BobRyan said:
Filioque -- "the word inserted in the Western version of the Nicene Creed to assert the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son as well as from the Father, which is not admitted by the Eastern Church. It was one of the central issues in the Great Schism of 1054."

That’s correct. Whereas there really aren’t any divisions between Catholics and Protestants over the Trinity, there are between the Eastern churches, all of which reject the Filioque (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East), and the Western churches, which historically accepted it, the movement to excise it in some denominations, for example, Anglicanism, being recent.

One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity

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