one for the catholics

[JohnDeereFan]

I don't like to use the term ordinances because an ordinance is a law. And law condemns us, it doesn't save us. And so by speaking of ordinances, one is simply moving from having one set of laws during the Old Testament and another set of laws for the New Testament.

Actually, the word "ordinance", in this context has nothing to do with the law.

 

[calluna]

2. Some Bible scholars have pointed out that there was no scriptural basis for regarding the sacraments as essential to salvation or Christian living. Many Christians assumed that Jesus commanded the use of baptism and holy communion. But there very few New Testament references to these practices and it was argued that none of them showed any intention by Jesus that they (or any other practice) should have become fixed ceremonies.
???

There is no general explicit command to be water baptised or to break bread provable in Scripture. Water baptism acted as a witness of one's one conversion, but this was and remains just as well (if not better) evinced by oral witness. The purpose of breaking bread is to remind of Christ's sacrifice, which remembrance is 'food and drink' in the decisions of daily life for the Christian, and reminders should not really be necessary.

Both of these external activities can be dispensed with. There are millions who are water baptised and take 'communion' who have no real faith, but are deceived into thinking that they have valid faith through these activities. It may therefore be desirable for those with true faith to dispense with practising them, to greater or lesser degree, in order to assist those with invalid faith.

 

[wildboar]

There is no general explicit command to be water baptised or to break bread provable in Scripture. Water baptism acted as a witness of one's one conversion, but this was and remains just as well (if not better) evinced by oral witness. The purpose of breaking bread is to remind of Christ's sacrifice, which remembrance is 'food and drink' in the decisions of daily life for the Christian, and reminders should not really be necessary.

Both of these external activities can be dispensed with. There are millions who are water baptised and take 'communion' who have no real faith, but are deceived into thinking that they have valid faith through these activities. It may therefore be desirable for those with true faith to dispense with practising them, to greater or lesser degree, in order to assist those with invalid faith.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

I could provid more examples if you need them but baptism was clearly commanded and the reason for the weekly meetings was to partake of communion. There is nothing in Scripture which says that water baptism is a witness for one's conversion. There are plenty of examples where it speaks of water baptism for the remission of sins.

There are millions who hear the preaching of the Word who have no faith as well so by the same logic we should do away with that and worship and everything that has to do with Christianity since we could always find people doing these things that have no faith. Christianity is not gnosticism. Matter is not evil and it pleases God to work through means.

 

[Yarddog]

I don't like to use the term ordinances because an ordinance is a law. And law condemns us, it doesn't save us. And so by speaking of ordinances, one is simply moving from having one set of laws during the Old Testament and another set of laws for the New Testament.

Instead, I understand baptism and the Lord's Supper not through law, but through grace. As God's gift to us. As the Gospel.

That gospel is proclaimed through baptism and through the Lord's Supper. They are not new laws to obey. But gifts to receive.

Marv

Hello Marv,

We shouldn't be afraid of the word law because it does not always indicate the written Law of Moses. Jesus gave us commandments and told us how to live, the Apostles did this as well. These can be referred to as ordinaces or laws without referring to the Law.

We are free of the Mosaic Law but are now under the law of the Spirit.

Romans
Chapter 8
1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death.God Bless,
Yarddog

 

[calluna]

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Not a general command.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight.

Not a command.

There are plenty of examples where it speaks of water baptism for the remission of sins.

Not proven.

 

[wildboar]

Why is repent and be baptized not a general command?

Why wouldn't the example set by the early Christians in regards to their purpose for gathering for worship be important for determining what our purpose should be? It seems you are putting your tradition above Scripture.

Acts 2:38 and 3:19 and 22:16 all say that baptism is for the remission of sins. This is the faith confessed by all in the early church and confessed in the Nicene Creed as "one baptism for the remission of sins." The idea of baptism being a dedication or act of obedience is a man-made tradition.

 

[calluna]

Why is repent and be baptized not a general command?

Why wouldn't the example set by the early Christians in regards to their purpose for gathering for worship be important for determining what our purpose should be? It seems you are putting your tradition above Scripture.

Acts 2:38 and 3:19 and 22:16 all say that baptism is for the remission of sins. This is the faith confessed by all in the early church and confessed in the Nicene Creed as "one baptism for the remission of sins." The idea of baptism being a dedication or act of obedience is a man-made tradition.

Goodbye.

 

[wildboar]

Bye-bye.