One Church

[Extirpated Wildlife]

I realize that the Catholic church believes it to be the one true church.  Some within the Catholic church hold that others(i.e. protestants) are Christians but not apart of the one true church, and thus not able to be completely enlightened, or some such.

To me, the Catholic church only builds this off of one verse, Mt 16:18, because you deem him your first Pope.  And because you deem him the first Pope of the Catholic Church that this gives your rights to calling yourself the one true church.

The church is the body of Christ, Eph 5:23, and they can meet in houses, Rom 16:5, or anywhere, Matt 18:20.  The woman at the well did not become a Catholic.  She became a Christian, which the whole body is the Church.

Partially why this bothers me is because i know of someone who is trying to lead a charge to convert most of a particular city to Catholicism.  That in itself is not as bad as the fact they are going to try to convert Baptist to Catholicism because 90% of the city is Baptist. The reason they are doing this is because they believe the Catholic church to be the One True Church. This misses the point of why Christ came.  He came to seek and to save that which was lost.  Not the healthy, but the sick.  Not the righteous, but the unrighteous.  Now i am using this not in the context of what they Bible was declaring, but in the context of saved and lost.  Christ came to save the lost. 

Those in the church, whether Baptist, or Catholic, or Lutheran, or whatever have a responsibility to work to see lost people come to Christ.

 

 

[VOW]

To Quizzler:

I've never heard of CATHOLICS trying to convert BAPTISTS. However, I do know that the leadership of the Baptist faith has an actual, organized unit for the evangelization of Catholics. And while Catholics believe that Baptists are Christian, there are Baptists who believe that Catholics are not.

The origin of the Catholic Church is based upon much, much more than the single verse you quoted. That verse is the beginning of the leadership role of Peter in the new, infant, Christian Church. However, throughout the book of Acts, you can follow Peter in his leadership. Whenever any of the disciples are mentioned by name, Peter's name is always first. He held a leadership role in selecting a new Apostle to replace Judas. And he is seen giving direction and guidance to the other Apostles.

Catholics believe that the Church is indeed the Body of believers, but that the leadership structure was also created by Christ. Human beings naturally need a leader whenever they are collected into groups. And the first Christians were instructed to gather together. Jesus knew He had to return to the Father, so He put this leadership in place before He Ascended.

And if you read the Early Church fathers, you'll find they started to make reference to the Church as "Catholic." There was only ONE Christian Church, and that was the Catholic Church.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[jukesk9]

VOW took the words right out of my mouth. Do a Yahoo search for "evangelizing catholics" and see what you come up with. Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. are convinced they need to show Catholics "the truth."

And you, quizzler, took more words out of my mouth. I agree with you that the lost need saved. I think Catholics would be wasting their time trying to convert faithful Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. Just like those who evangelize Catholics would be better off to evangelize atheists, agnostics, and others who haven't heard the Gospel.

The Catholic Church's teaching on protestants is that they are part of the Catholic Church, which means universal. We at this moment in time, are viewed as separated brethren, not adversaries.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Actually, we base this teaching that we are the true Church based on historical fact, not just the Bible. If you find another church that existed in the first 1000 years, let us know. It would surely shock the world and you could write a book about it.

 

[Stormy]

There was only ONE Christian Church, and that was the Catholic Church.

Take special note that this sentence is speaking in past tense.

Now there are many Christian Churches... I pray that each of them are considered a True Church by Christ. I think we as humans place too many restrictions upon God.

He is within every Church where there is a soul that believes.

So if God is within the Church... how can any of our Churches not be considered a True Christian Church?

There are many more than "one" true Christian Church.

 

[VOW]

To Stormy:

My sentence was in the past tense, because part of Quizzler's question dealt with the Early Christian Church. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that the Early Christian Church was Catholic, although there wasn't a sign over every church building that said, "Catholic Church." The ORIGIN of the Catholic Church is traced back to Peter.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that it STILL is THE Christian Church, and that non-Catholics are a part of this Body of Christ.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Stormy
Take special note that this sentence is speaking in past tense.

Now there are many Christian Churches... I pray that each of them are considered a True Church by Christ. I think we as humans place too many restrictions upon God.

He is within every Church where there is a soul that believes.

So if God is within the Church... how can any of our Churches not be considered a True Christian Church?

There are many more than "one" true Christian Church.

Perhaps if someone is leading people to Hell, through some horribly wrong false teaching, Jesus wouldnt appreciate it? Maybe He set up one that the "Gates of Hell" wouldnt overcome?

I am not saying this is the case with all other churches, just that it is a scary possibility, dont you think?

 

[Stormy]

Perhaps if someone is leading people to Hell, through some horribly wrong false teaching, Jesus wouldnt appreciate it? Maybe He set up one that the "Gates of Hell" wouldnt overcome?

What is false teaching? Many Christians would believe the infallibility of man to be a false teaching. The different revelations concerning Mary also may come into question. So what is false teaching? Who decides?

I am sorry, but I am having a hard time seeing the Catholic Church of today in the elevated position of being the true Church of Christ.

Instead I believe that the "Church" is symbolic and is all true Christians.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Perhaps if someone is leading people to Hell, through some horribly wrong false teaching, Jesus wouldnt appreciate it? Maybe He set up one that the "Gates of Hell" wouldnt overcome?

I am not saying this is the case with all other churches, just that it is a scary possibility, dont you think?

How could someone go to Hell for honestly believing in a false teaching? I've heard over and over again that the Catholic Church believes that just because someone is honestly deceived through ignorance, that does not qualify them for Hell. For instance, I've heard it said that the Catholic Church believes that some Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, even atheists, etc, will reach Heaven. Granted, I'm not saying false teaching is acceptable, but rather that it doesn't "send someone to Hell".

 

[VOW]

To Joe:

Some people believe the Catholic Church has "false teachings." And that is in direct contradiction with the promise of Jesus about His Church.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by VOW
To Joe:

Some people believe the Catholic Church has "false teachings." And that is in direct contradiction with the promise of Jesus about His Church.


Peace,
~VOW

I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding... could you spoonfeed me please?

It's the classwork! The classwork, I tell you!!! It's driving me mad!!!!!

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by VOW
And if you read the Early Church fathers, you'll find they started to make reference to the Church as "Catholic." There was only ONE Christian Church, and that was the Catholic Church.

That is fine.  That doesn't bother me at all.  Its was somewhat a reference.  Basically the same as today saying "Christian".  A Christian is of the one church, which is the bride of Christ.

Originally posted by Jukesk9
And you, quizzler, took more words out of my mouth. I agree with you that the lost need saved. I think Catholics would be wasting their time trying to convert faithful Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. Just like those who evangelize Catholics would be better off to evangelize atheists, agnostics, and others who haven't heard the Gospel.

I agree.  Now i am not against Catholics trying to reach a person who claims to be saved, but show all the indications of not.  There are alot of people who claim one thing but their actions show something different.  Its the same with both protestants and Catholics. 

Im not sure how Catholics see this so i will need some help on this.  I really don't want to put words in your mouth.  Could you explain whether you believe a person can be a member of the Catholic church but not truly saved?

Originally posted by Jukesk9
The Catholic Church's teaching on protestants is that they are part of the Catholic Church, which means universal. We at this moment in time, are viewed as separated brethren, not adversaries.

That's what i thought.  Thanks.

Originally posted by Vow
Some people believe the Catholic Church has "false teachings." And that is in direct contradiction with the promise of Jesus about His Church.

I disagree.  A group of fleshly people, and everyone including the pope false into this category, can come together and produce a teaching that is false.  Those false teachings are not of Christ.  That does not mean that His word has fallacies.  It means that man has created some fallacies.  In my opinion, I don't think people are as concerned about the this as they are seeing that one will admit when they made a fallacy and correct it.  This is just my take.

Originally posted by souljah
Actually, we base this teaching that we are the true Church based on historical fact, not just the Bible. If you find another church that existed in the first 1000 years, let us know. It would surely shock the world and you could write a book about it.

Once again, I believe that the church is the body of believers.  Has nothing to do with some architectural building that i walk into, which has a sign on it "Catholic".  So thus, Christianity whether Baptist, Catholic, or what not has been around for the same amount of time.  History only shows one thing to me.  That Christians have been around for 2000 years.

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by quizzler

Im not sure how Catholics see this so i will need some help on this.  I really don't want to put words in your mouth.  Could you explain whether you believe a person can be a member of the Catholic church but not truly saved? 

I believe that a person can be a member of the Catholic Church and not be truly saved.  Just the same as a person of a Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc. church can be unsaved.  Just because you have your name on a membership roll and go to church doesn't mean you believe in Christ. 

For example, people join prominent groups to elevate their status in the eyes of their fellow citizens.  This is an election year.  I'm reading in the paper the other day an add for a man who's running for city council.  Big add.  It lists his accomplishments and it says something like "20 year member" of such and such "Baptist Church."  Right underneath that it says umpteenth "degree Mason."  Now, I said to myself, "How can a person be both a Christian and a Mason?"  Well, they can't.  But most people in society think that the Masons are good guys.  Along with that, they see "Baptist Church" so they figure, "This is a good man." 

My brother started going to a prominent Baptist Church where he lives because he wanted to make more business contacts.  He told me that.  There are several affluent business folks that attend there. I believe he's saved but he doesn't agree with a single thing that the Baptist Church teaches.  He's using it to further his career!  Now, that's bad. 

My stepfather, whom I pray for daily, is a wonderful, wonderful man.  Except, he's an atheist.  But he went to church and saw to it that my step-sister and step-brother received the Sacraments of baptism, confession, first communion, and confirmation all in the Catholic Church.  He went to church with us and sang, prayed, etc. but he still professes to be an atheist.  He came to my children's baptism.

originally posted by quizzler

I disagree.  A group of fleshly people, and everyone including the pope false into this category, can come together and produce a teaching that is false.  Those false teachings are not of Christ.  That does not mean that His word has fallacies.  It means that man has created some fallacies.  In my opinion, I don't think people are as concerned about the this as they are seeing that one will admit when they made a fallacy and correct it.  This is just my take.

That's where we will have to agree to disagree.  As Catholics, we believe, an I am firmly convinced from both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, that the Catholic Church is prevented from teaching error by the Holy Spirit. 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Some people believe the Catholic Church has "false teachings." And that is in direct contradiction with the promise of Jesus about His Church.

Joe-

Just my opinion, but thinking Jesus is a liar is probably more dangerous than being a Muslim, etc. VOW posted the above which shows that some people think Jesus promise doesn't mean much.

Its one thing to be taught that Jesus was a prophet and that the Bible is corrupt (Islam), but it is another to think that the Bible is infallible, but yet, discount Jesus' words about His Church and His promise to send the Holy Spirit to protect it from error. *shrug*

Just my two cents...

 

[shout2thelord]

I beleive that the one true church would be anyone who beleives in and knows Jesus personally as their lord and saviour.

You will find a mixture of beleivers and none beleivers inside most churches. It is the beleivers that make up up the church.

I dont beleive in some of the things that catholics do but i do know catholics who are saved.

 

[VOW]

To the non-Catholics who have posted here:

All Catholics believe, and the Catholic Church teaches, that the Catholic Church was established upon Peter, as stated in Matthew 16. When Jesus renamed Peter and established His Church upon the Rock, and then handed Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and said the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, that meant several things:
Peter was given the leadership of the Church
The Church would never fail.

OTHER people chose to break away from Catholicism. However, the Catholic Church continues to this day. The Catholic Church does not teach anything against Scripture or Sacred Tradition. The Church is PROTECTED against teaching anything contrary to Scripture or Sacred Tradition.

Non-Catholic Christians are members of the Body of Christ, and therefore, Catholic. They are just not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

You are free to disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, and to define the terminology however you wish.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[isshinwhat]

Just my opinion, but thinking Jesus is a liar is probably more dangerous than being a Muslim, etc. VOW posted the above which shows that some people think Jesus promise doesn't mean much.

If they thought Jesus was saying the same thing we do, s0uljah, they would be Catholic. They think he meant something else. Neither group thinks he was a liar.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Its one thing to be taught that Jesus was a prophet and that the Bible is corrupt (Islam), but it is another to think that the Bible is infallible, but yet, discount Jesus' words about His Church and His promise to send the Holy Spirit to protect it from error.

No, its really not.  The Holy Spirit has always protected the Truth.  But this does not mean that there are not teaching that are not from the Holy Spirit, even in the Catholic church.

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
If they thought Jesus was saying the same thing we do, s0uljah, they would be Catholic. They think he meant something else. Neither group thinks he was a liar.

I know.

 

[Stormy]

If they thought Jesus was saying the same thing we do, s0uljah, they would be Catholic. They think he meant something else. Neither group thinks he was a liar.

Isshinwhat: Thank you. Your words are heard and appreciated.

I do think that infallibility of man is wrong... but I do not think it will ever be allowed to do any harm to Christianity. I have read papers from the Vatican that indicate that as soon as a Pope opens his mouth and declares something contrary to the truth of Christ... he immediately loses his position as Pope.

God at work.