One born out of due time

[@@Paul@@]

1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.​

Paul speaks of his conversion and notes that He was "one born out of due time"... That phrase is ONE WORD.

G1626
ektrōma
ek'-tro-mah
From a compound of G1537 and τιτρώσκω titrōskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), that is, (by analogy) untimely birth: - born out of due time.​

Why would Paul's conversion be called an aborted birth?? i.e. Paul was one born AHEAD of time.

 

[Terral]

Hi Paul:

You wrote >> Why would Paul's conversion be called an aborted birth?? i.e. Paul was one born AHEAD of time.

Paul is writing in context to the manner in which Christ appeared to him in light of his testimony pertaining to the Gospel.

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.” 1Cor. 15:3-8.

Did you catch that James is not numbered among the Twelve? James the Lord’s brother replaced James the Just after Acts 12:2. It is not that Paul was born out of time, but he became ‘as’ one born out of time, in regard to that which was of ‘first importance’ for these believers in Christ. His apostleship (Gal. 2:8), and stewardship (Eph. 3:2) came long after Peter and the Twelve were walking with Christ and preaching the Kingdom (Matt. 10:5-7), under His direction. Even after the crucifixion, the focus of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) was upon Israel (Acts 2:14, 22, 36). And even then Paul persecuted the Kingdom church, and was pursuing disciples on the one hundred mile journey on horseback to Damascus, God finally called him to preach to the Gentiles (Gal. 1:15+16). He goes on to say . . .

“For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace [Gal. 1:15+16] toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.” 1Cor. 15:9+10.

Paul’s reference to ‘the Church’ of God is of the KingdomChurch under Peter (Matt. 16:16-19) of which Christ gave him the keys, and taught doctrine (Matt. 18:17), and which was continuing to grow at Pentecost. Our Gentile body of Christ had yet to be founded, because the stewardship of God’s grace (Eph. 3:2) had yet to be given to Paul for us. Paul is using this opportunity to distinguish himself and his gospel (1Cor. 15:1-4) from the other apostles who carried the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ as he also did to the Galatians. You will note the reference to his calling and how he compares that to being separated from his mother’s womb.

“But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.” Gal. 1:15-17.

Therefore, it is not so much that Paul was born ‘ahead’ of time, but that his apostleship and gospel followed those who had been sent before him. Since Paul’s gospel was always the thing of ‘first importance’ to all of his new churches, then his coming along last made him ‘as’ one born out of due time.


God bless,


Terral

 

[@@Paul@@]

Therefore, it is not so much that Paul was born ‘ahead’ of time, but that his apostleship and gospel followed those who had been sent before him. Since Paul’s gospel was always the thing of ‘first importance’ to all of his new churches, then his coming along last made him ‘as’ one born out of due time.

Again, i do agree with most of your conclusions except where Paul's purpose is concerned. But where so you get "first importance" from "one born OUT OF due time"?

Due time simply means proper time or the expected time... To be born out of "due time" would be at a time which was NOT the proper time.

Which is why the phrase "abortive birth" is used. i.e. Something happened with Paul that was premature.

 

[@@Paul@@]

So as not to derail THIS post.

Paul went to the Jew first and preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ He then went among the Gentiles and preached them the ‘gospel of the grace of God.’ Acts 20:24. Acts says,

"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.” Acts 20:27.

I could not agree more; however, I am saying that the NATION is to do what Paul was doing in Acts; preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.

This will be done again, by the nation, during the Tribulation. Thus, the Body began in Acts <Mystery Revealed> and it will end in Revelation (the TWO witnesses).

What you are describing up there (Jew first) is Paul carrying out the whole purpose of God to preach ‘both’ gospel messages. He worked for the bride first (Jew First) at every city, then worked for the body second (Gentile body; Church; ‘mystery among the Gentiles, Col. 1:24-27). You only find Paul speaking to the Romans about this “Jew first and also the Greek” business, because that letter was written during the time of Acts (about 59 Ad). After Acts 28:28, then Paul began working strictly with the body of Christ. I believe you are taking this ‘blade, ear, full ear’ business a bit too far when applying it to the body of Christ. The seed, shoot then fruit analogy works best to describe the process of faith (seed), knowledge (shoot) and wisdom (fruit).

I was only applying it to how God moves. There was a hope of fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham as late as Acts 26… So Paul’s purpose was for the nation, even though he was the only one from that nation sent to the gentiles. The phrase “Body of Christ” contains the (1) Gentiles during Acts < (2) the church, which is His Body> and (3) the Gentiles during Revelation. (1) and (3) running along side of the “Bride” and pertain to God’s prophetic plan. (2) pertaining to God’s hidden purpose… Agreed?

We agree. The plan of Prophecy was overlapping the Mystery. That is the lesson of Acts. However, you missed a great opportunity to show that right here in Acts 13. Paul did go to the Jews first with his ‘preaching the kingdom,’ but they did not accept. He then turned around and gave the Gentiles the good news of God’s grace:

The Apostle Paul became God’s light to the Gentiles, as Israel as a nation (beginning in Jerusalem) never accepted the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ As you already know, the KingdomChurch is the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ. He is also to have a Gentile (body). Col. 1:24-27. God can add millions and millions of Gentiles to the bride, but how does that build the stature of the body of Christ? Every one of them must be circumcised and keep every ordinance of Mosaic Law. Matt. 5:18, James 2:10. That is a physical impossibility for 99 percent of Gentiles. We are to see that God was working in Paul to fulfill Prophecy in the preaching of the kingdom, and to reveal the Mystery in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God.

Agreed.

Those are two TOTALLY separate bodies of doctrine for those two Administrations of our NT. Our Paul just happened to be involved with the building of both. And that is part of the reason that our gospel remains hidden to those who mix the bodies of doctrine into one. If Peter, John and James were writing to the same ‘body’ as Paul, then there would be no need to ‘rightly divide’ the word of truth. 2Tim. 2:15. In that event, everything would be written to one church, and Paul (Rom. 4:4-6) would not be contradicting James (James 2:20-24) about Justification. Everybody would either be under the Law (James 2:10, Matt. 5:18) or not under Law. Rom. 6:14. However, since Paul says nobody is our judge in regard to the Sabbath (Col. 2:16+17) with Christ and James teaching obedience to even the smallest bit of Mosaic Law, then obviously we need to accurately handle the ‘word of truth’ in order to recognize the commands which actually do apply to us.

OK, here’s where I see we differ. Paul’s purpose all the way through Acts was for the HOPE of Israel; this includes the building up of a gentile body. Paul’s purpose after Acts28:28 was for the hope of the Gentiles (apart from the nation)… i.e. the hope and calling of the gentile body prior to Israel being set aside was the same hope and calling Israel had.

Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
….Even Paul’s last epistle during the Acts period confirms this. Gentiles had been brought in the share (partake) in Israel’s things because they had not been given there own things yet. Which would mean that Christ could still return SOON to “bruise Satan under their feet shortly”.

The process of Israel rejecting the kingdom continued over a period of about forty years. First they did not recognize John as Elijah (Matt. 17:11-13). Then, crucifying the King did not go over very well. Then the people stoning Steven, being full of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 6+7 has to be the longest account of anyone being stoned in Scripture by far. And then, for Paul to finally turn his back on Israel in the final chapter of Acts? God is certainly a patient Fellow indeed. Your statement above “Everything regarding the prophetic plan still applies” has little meaning. Nothing of Prophecy applies to the Gentile body of Christ today. The things that apply to us are part of the revelation of the Mystery. Rom. 16:25, Eph. 3:1-11, Col. 1:24-27. Paul must point and show us the places in the OT where the mystery is enfolded within the Text. God will fulfill Prophecy when Elijah comes to restore all things (Matt. 17:11) and prepare the bride of Christ for Lord.

I do not believe the kingdom could actually be offered until Acts. It was “At Hand” during our Lord’s earthly ministry but could never be offered until Christ fulfilled the prophecies and died on the cross.

Act 3:17-18 KJV
(17) And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
(18) But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.​

……….i.e. the kingdom could not be offered until all that was spoken about Christ suffering was fulfilled.

Terral, I never said “Prophecy applies to the Gentile body of Christ today”. NEVER. I completely agree. BUT, prophecy does apply to the Gentile “body of Christ” during Acts AND then Revelation.

I personally think the phrase “body of Christ” was only used as a metaphor to get across a point and that point was regarding gifts of the Spirit, which we don’t even have today… We would do well to use our revealed name: “the church, which is His Body”.

 

[TheScottsMen]

1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.​

Paul speaks of his conversion and notes that He was "one born out of due time"... That phrase is ONE WORD.

G1626

ektro&#772;ma
ek'-tro-mah
From a compound of G1537 and &#964;&#953;&#964;&#961;&#969;&#769;&#963;&#954;&#969; titro&#772;sko&#772; (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), that is, (by analogy) untimely birth: - born out of due time.
​

Why would Paul's conversion be called an aborted birth?? i.e. Paul was one born AHEAD of time.

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

- Paul did not class himself as one of hte 12 apostles as stated in vs 5-8. They were choosen for Christ eartly ministry, and needed to be eyewitnesses from the beginning.

OneBornOutOfDueTime = ektroma, a child untimely born; or an abortion. This same greek term is used in the LXX for Job 3:16, Eccl 6:3. I believe Paul refers to being born out of season when the 12 apostles were chosen. We of course know why he was not chosen to be part of the 12

 

[@@Paul@@]

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

- Paul did not class himself as one of hte 12 apostles as stated in vs 5-8. They were choosen for Christ eartly ministry, and needed to be eyewitnesses from the beginning.

OneBornOutOfDueTime = ektroma, a child untimely born; or an abortion. This same greek term is used in the LXX for Job 3:16, Eccl 6:3. I believe Paul refers to being born out of season when the 12 apostles were chosen. We of course know why he was not chosen to be part of the 12

Yes we do...

But are you saying that Paul was referring to the 12 when he used "ektroma"? The context appears as if he was talking about himself.

For the record: I believe there will be 144,000 Apostle Paul's running around during the tribulation > saving Gentiles (the great multitude).

Looking forward to more thoughts.

 

[TheScottsMen]

I believe the context of the verses refer to Paul not being born or numbered with the 12.

For the record: I believe there will be 144,000 Apostle Paul's running around during the tribulation > saving Gentiles (the great multitude).

But won't grace (as in nothing by faith in the risen Lord) have been retracted during the 7 years of tribulation as Gods wrath is let loose? Won't the dispensation of grace have ended with the rapture? Anways! I don't want to derail this thread!

 

[@@Paul@@]

I believe the context of the verses refer to Paul not being born or numbered with the 12.

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But won't grace (as in nothing by faith in the risen Lord) have been retracted during the 7 years of tribulation as Gods wrath is let loose? Won't the dispensation of grace have ended with the rapture? Anways! I don't want to derail this thread!

It's OK... shoot...

Grace was extended to Israel... as it was to the Gentiles... as it will be again...

 

[Terral]

Hi Paul:

Paul >> I could not agree more; however, I am saying that the NATION is to do what Paul was doing in Acts; preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.

No sir. We disagree. Israel’s role during the coming Messianic Kingdom will be to intercede for the nations to the Lord God, as a nation of priests. They are the ‘royal priesthood’ of 1Pet. 2:9. They will have the Temple and all of the Levitical ordinances of Mosaic Law. What did James say about what will happen ‘After these things?’

'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME.” Acts 15:16+17. (Caps are OT quotes).

The Tabernacle of David is being restored “so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord.” Christ said that the

‘gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.’ Matt. 24:14.

The gospel of the kingdom is about repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. The Mystery was revealed to Paul, and not to Israel. If Israel had accepted the Kingdom, then the mystery and the body would not have been part of this earth, unless God picked another ‘chosen Instrument of Mine’ (Acts 9:15) like Paul.

Paul >> This will be done again, by the nation, during the Tribulation. Thus, the Body began in Acts <Mystery Revealed> and it will end in Revelation (the TWO witnesses).

No sir, I do not believe so. When the body of Christ is gathered out (1Thes. 4:17), then the Holy Spirit will return to begin building the ‘bride of Christ.’ The two administrations ran parallel through Acts, only because Israel was being given time to accept. In actuality, I believe the kingdom died with John the Baptist; when Israel did not recognize him. Matt. 17:11-13. The remainder was God offering the Kingdom of God to Israel so that the chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Rom. 11:7. In the same exact way that Prophecy is now dormant and the Messianic Kingdom is being held in abeyance, the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ will then be complete. Just as the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is the wrong gospel message for our day, then Paul’s gospel will be the wrong gospel message for the days of the coming Messianic Kingdom. That being my position, I must admit that this interpretation is derived mostly from reading the types in Scripture. However, there is not much purpose for God to rebuild the tabernacle of David so that the rest of mankind can seek Him, and also provide a back door through Paul’s gospel in the same breath. The ‘jealously’ aspect is established by the fact that gaining access to Him through the kingdom is very difficult when compared to the acceptance of Paul’s gospel.

Paul >> I was only applying it to how God moves. There was a hope of fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham as late as Acts 26… So Paul’s purpose was for the nation, even though he was the only one from that nation sent to the gentiles. The phrase “Body of Christ” contains the (1) Gentiles during Acts < (2) the church, which is His Body> and (3) the Gentiles during Revelation. (1) and (3) running along side of the “Bride” and pertain to God’s prophetic plan. (2) pertaining to God’s hidden purpose… Agreed?

No sir. God began dealing with the Adamic race through grace way back in Genesis 2:17, when Adam did not die that very day. However, God’s ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ began with the conversion of Paul, and ends with the events of 1Thes. 4:17. Paul says,

“Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

Are you catching Paul’s drift there? He describes exactly two groups of Grace Church believers. Those who are with Christ already, and those who remain. Upon the summing up process of those who remain, then he describes the body as what? That’s right “We.” “ . . . and so we shall always be with the Lord.” Does he intimate anywhere that any would be following later? That is quite an oversight for the Holy Spirit, if indeed others are coming. No sir. If the door is left open for the members to be added through Paul’s gospel, beyond that time, then the door would be open for eternity.

Paul >> OK, here’s where I see we differ. Paul’s purpose all the way through Acts was for the HOPE of Israel; this includes the building up of a gentile body. Paul’s purpose after Acts28:28 was for the hope of the Gentiles (apart from the nation)… i.e. the hope and calling of the gentile body prior to Israel being set aside was the same hope and calling Israel had.

No sir. Israel is blind to the mystery and to the things of the Gentile body of Christ. Rom. 11:25. Israel in no way benefits by the Gentiles having a heavenly inheritance in Christ (Eph. 1:9-11, 5:5, Col. 3:1-4). The Gentile now has direct access to God through Christ (Rom. 8:34) and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:26+27).

Paul’s quote >> Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Paul’s commentary >> ….Even Paul’s last epistle during the Acts period confirms this. Gentiles had been brought in the share (partake) in Israel’s things because they had not been given there own things yet. Which would mean that Christ could still return SOON to “bruise Satan under their feet shortly”.

There is nothing in Rom. 16:20 or in this chapter, or in the letter that speaks of Christ coming shortly. Christ is soon to crush Satan either way. I am not following along with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are forcing the boundaries of this one ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ to cover much larger areas, than stated by Paul himself.

Paul >> I do not believe the kingdom could actually be offered until Acts. It was “At Hand” during our Lord’s earthly ministry but could never be offered until Christ fulfilled the prophecies and died on the cross.

If that were true, then there was no true ‘forgiveness of sins’ in John’s Baptism of Mark 1:4. If what you are suggesting is true, then John did not bring the knowledge of salvation (Luke 1:77) to Israel. Let’s look at these verses:

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Acts 19:1-3.

The Holy Spirit calls these people what? “Disciples.” They were disciples of what? They heard the message, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt. 3:2. And then they received the Baptism of John. If the Holy Spirit called these believers ‘disciples’ AFTER they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6), then perhaps we could agree. Were Peter, John and James called ‘disciples’ and ‘apostles’ before Pentecost? Matt. 5:1? 8:12? Christ was the King, and He had authority to forgive the sins of men Himself (Matt. 9:5+6), and He preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23. Are you ready to try and prove that His ‘offer’ was not genuine? Are your sins today ‘forgiven’ one bit more fully than if Christ Himself forgave you? When Scripture says that sins were forgiven through repentance and water baptism (Mark 1:4), then that also is through the grace of God. Our sins are forgiven by the grace of God, because we believe the gospel. That is our access to salvation; not because Christ died, but because God says so. It is in the GOSPEL. 1Cor. 1:21. And the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ was the ‘gospel’ from the days of John the Baptist; not beginning Pentecost. That fallacy is part of the reason that others here wish to start our GentileChurch at Pentecost, when there was not even one around.

Paul >> Terral, I never said “Prophecy applies to the Gentile body of Christ today”. NEVER. I completely agree. BUT, prophecy does apply to the Gentile “body of Christ” during Acts AND then Revelation.

It is okay to yell at me. Maybe we are arguing semantics over your choice of words, “Prophecy.” OT prophecy (Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.) does not apply to the Gentile Body. NT prophecy does apply to us. The problem with your statement is that none of the NT letters were written at the time of Acts 2. Revelation applies to Israel. Therefore, I am kind of lost as to your point.

Paul >> I personally think the phrase “body of Christ” was only used as a metaphor to get across a point and that point was regarding gifts of the Spirit, which we don’t even have today… We would do well to use our revealed name: “the church, which is His Body”.

You are quoting Col. 1:24. What about Eph. 4:12?

“And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” Eph. 4:11-13.

With all of these denominations and different interpretations, no wonder we have been here 2000 years. Perhaps it will take another 2000. If Elijah came today without power, then his words would be just another man's opinion.

God bless,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Paul:

Paul >> Again, I do agree with most of your conclusions except where Paul's purpose is concerned. But where so you get "first importance" from "one born OUT OF due time"? Due time simply means proper time or the expected time... To be born out of "due time" would be at a time which was NOT the proper time. Which is why the phrase "abortive birth" is used. i.e. Something happened with Paul that was premature.

It comes from the context of what Paul is saying. The words you are quoting follow directly behind his descriptions of the Gospel. I suppose if we remove the words from the top of this chapter and place them elsewhere, then they could mean a lot of things. Let me try again:

“For I delivered to you as of first importance* what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.” 1Cor. 15:3-8.

His words are relating the contrast in the most important thing* he has to offer them, versus him being the very last apostle in line for Christ’s appearing. Again, he is also distinguishing himself from the other apostles before him. The Gentiles could relate to that, because they were separate from Christ, and excluded, and strangers, having no hope and without God (Eph. 2:12). They were last also, and now 'sons.'

In Christ,

Terral

 

[@@Paul@@]

PS. Caps only denotes a point, I'm truely not yelling. If i was i'd do THIS ...

No sir. We disagree. Israel’s role during the coming Messianic Kingdom will be to intercede for the nations to the Lord God, as a nation of priests. They are the ‘royal priesthood’ of 1Pet. 2:9. They will have the Temple and all of the Levitical ordinances of Mosaic Law. What did James say about what will happen ‘After these things?’

I was not talking about Israel’s role during the messianic kingdom, I am referring to the period prior to that when Israel is used as a channel to send “the Gospel” to the ends of the world.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.​

… when Israel is sent as a light to the Gentiles, when they again are the channel of salvation; which happens before the realization of any kingdom.

There are Kingdom churches get up at the beginning of Revelation who’s goal is to overcome to rule and reign with Christ… They got there somehow.

The gospel of the kingdom is about repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. The Mystery was revealed to Paul, and not to Israel. If Israel had accepted the Kingdom, then the mystery and the body would not have been part of this earth, unless God picked another ‘chosen Instrument of Mine’ (Acts 9:15) like Paul.

The “gospel of the kingdom” is for Jews… The gospel of Grace is for Gentiles… If Israel had accepted, Acts would have happened exactly the same but with the nation taking the gospel to the gentiles.
There are two (2) voices during the tribulation, two (2) witnesses, two (2) olive trees, (2) candlesticks…. Etc. etc…

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:​

…the bridegroom and the bride.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

…the woman and the remnant of her seed. Israel, and the Gentile seed of Abraham.

I am saying after the “dispensation of the mystery” is over and God picks up His plan with Israel… There will still be a Gentile ministry prior to the kingdom being set up.

No sir, I do not believe so. When the body of Christ is gathered out (1Thes. 4:17), then the Holy Spirit will return to begin building the ‘bride of Christ.’ The two administrations ran parallel through Acts, only because Israel was being given time to accept. In actuality, I believe the kingdom died with John the Baptist; when Israel did not recognize him. Matt. 17:11-13. The remainder was God offering the Kingdom of God to Israel so that the chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Rom. 11:7. In the same exact way that Prophecy is now dormant and the Messianic Kingdom is being held in abeyance, the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ will then be complete. Just as the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is the wrong gospel message for our day, then Paul’s gospel will be the wrong gospel message for the days of the coming Messianic Kingdom. That being my position, I must admit that this interpretation is derived mostly from reading the types in Scripture. However, there is not much purpose for God to rebuild the tabernacle of David so that the rest of mankind can seek Him, and also provide a back door through Paul’s gospel in the same breath. The ‘jealously’ aspect is established by the fact that gaining access to Him through the kingdom is very difficult when compared to the acceptance of Paul’s gospel.

I believe 1 Thes. 4 is speaking of the Second Coming… NOT a rapture of the church prior to the tribulation…. You seem to be missing the fact that kingdom churches will be set up prior to Daniel’s 70 week, by a kingdom ministry. Those churches will preach the gospel of the kingdom to Jews and grace to the gentiles…

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

…I’m glad to say my hope lies along a different path than the seed of Abraham. A heavenly calling filled with “all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places”. Abraham’s promises pertain to a literal piece of land in a literal kingdom.

Again, I’m speaking of the time prior to the Second Advent.

No sir. God began dealing with the Adamic race through grace way back in Genesis 2:17, when Adam did not die that very day. However, God’s ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ began with the conversion of Paul, and ends with the events of 1Thes. 4:17. Paul says,

Yes sir. And God choose one man, through which to build a nation to spread that grace across the face of the earth and to be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. God did not have to choose one man, He could have spoken to everybody on the face of the planet and said “leave now.. and believe me”. But he didn’t. He built a nation to send that message to the ends of the earth.

Are you catching Paul’s drift there? He describes exactly two groups of Grace Church believers. Those who are with Christ already, and those who remain. Upon the summing up process of those who remain, then he describes the body as what? That’s right “We.” “ . . . and so we shall always be with the Lord.” Does he intimate anywhere that any would be following later? That is quite an oversight for the Holy Spirit, if indeed others are coming. No sir. If the door is left open for the members to be added through Paul’s gospel, beyond that time, then the door would be open for eternity.

Which is why 1 Thes. 4 should be placed at the Second Advent. Why would “remaining” be a big deal today?

No sir. Israel is blind to the mystery and to the things of the Gentile body of Christ. Rom. 11:25. Israel in no way benefits by the Gentiles having a heavenly inheritance in Christ (Eph. 1:9-11, 5:5, Col. 3:1-4). The Gentile now has direct access to God through Christ (Rom. 8:34) and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:26+27).

Gentiles did not receive that until AFTER God’s purpose for Israel was placed aside at Acts 28:28. Prior to that Gentiles hope, was the same as Israel’s hope.

There is nothing in Rom. 16:20 or in this chapter, or in the letter that speaks of Christ coming shortly. Christ is soon to crush Satan either way. I am not following along with the point you are trying to make. It appears you are forcing the boundaries of this one ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ to cover much larger areas, than stated by Paul himself.

Well, I do disagree.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.​

How will God bruise Satan under the heel of those who Paul is writing to?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

Shortly means shortly and can only be referring to one thing.

If that were true, then there was no true ‘forgiveness of sins’ in John’s Baptism of Mark 1:4. If what you are suggesting is true, then John did not bring the knowledge of salvation (Luke 1:77) to Israel. Let’s look at these verses:

Yes, Israel already had salvation; they did not need John to give it to them. Repent means to pull a 180 and turn around. Israel was being called to turn from her evil adulterous ways and turn back to God.

Jer 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.​

…God always delt with Israel that way.

The Holy Spirit calls these people what? “Disciples.” They were disciples of what? They heard the message, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt. 3:2. And then they received the Baptism of John. If the Holy Spirit called these believers ‘disciples’ AFTER they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6), then perhaps we could agree. Were Peter, John and James called ‘disciples’ and ‘apostles’ before Pentecost? Matt. 5:1? 8:12? Christ was the King, and He had authority to forgive the sins of men Himself (Matt. 9:5+6), and He preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23. Are you ready to try and prove that His ‘offer’ was not genuine? Are your sins today ‘forgiven’ one bit more fully than if Christ Himself forgave you? When Scripture says that sins were forgiven through repentance and water baptism (Mark 1:4), then that also is through the grace of God. Our sins are forgiven by the grace of God, because we believe the gospel. That is our access to salvation; not because Christ died, but because God says so. It is in the GOSPEL. 1Cor. 1:21. And the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ was the ‘gospel’ from the days of John the Baptist; not beginning Pentecost. That fallacy is part of the reason that others here wish to start our Gentile Church at Pentecost, when there was not even one around.

I have no idea what you are talking about… “disciples??” So that’s what it’s like to read one of my posts…

John was baptizing people in water and preparing the way for who was to come, that is to say “Jesus Christ”. The water baptism in Acts was a baptism of repentance and a call to believe on who had already come, and died. They had to be re-baptized. One baptism pertained to the coming of our Lord and one to the second coming.

I do not have to prove His offer was not genuine. There was no offer until Act 3. Only the 12 knew the mysteries of the kingdom.

You are quoting Col. 1:24. What about Eph. 4:12?

Actually I was quoting Ephesians….

Eph 1:22-23
(22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
(23) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:​

But here’s where is may get fun, one of the most misunderstood verses.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​

Three things happening here. (1) perfecting of the saints (2) work of the ministry (3) edifying of the body of Christ. All three of these things were in place prior to the events at Acts 28. Right? (1) referring to Jews… (2) the ministry and (3) a gentile body with gifts.

The Gentile Body was already in place… God had to bring the Jews in and place both groups on an equal footing. Prior to Acts 28:28 this had not been so.

The word “perfecting” can have a few meanings… In this sense; it means to equip / complete furnishing, or to repair / mend / perfectly join together. And this perfectly joined body (Eph 3:6) is called “the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. “