One aspect of 12 step programs that is problematic for Christians, IMO

[chaz345]

I realize that this is a somewhat minor point and I do not mean to attack or demean 12 step programs nor their participants but there is one thing that, at least from this outsider's view, seems to be a bit problematic.

For perspective I am one recovering from addictive behavior issues through a means other that a 12 step program.

My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction. For people who know who they are in Christ(which I suspect would be a very small number when we're talking about addicts) this probably isn't a problem, but for most I can see where it might be. I understand that the idea behind that thinking is to covey the idea that the issue is one which the person will always, to some degree struggle with or be tempted by, but I think one needs to be very careful to avoid taking their identity from their addiction. The addictive behavior is something they do, it is not who they are.

 

[ww2pigeon]

"I realize that this is a somewhat minor point and I do not mean to attack or demean 12 step programs nor their participants but there is one thing that, at least from this outsider's view, seems to be a bit problematic".

"For perspective I am one recovering from addictive behavior issues through a means other that a 12 step program".

"My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction. For people who know who they are in Christ(which I suspect would be a very small number when we're talking about addicts) this probably isn't a problem, but for most I can see where it might be. I understand that the idea behind that thinking is to covey the idea that the issue is one which the person will always, to some degree struggle with or be tempted by, but I think one needs to be very careful to avoid taking their identity from their addiction. The addictive behavior is something they do, it is not who they are".


I here what you are saying, but for me I never saw it that way. I saw it as I was confessing to myself and others, I had a problem . I was admitting complete defeat.
I never wanted to be an alcoholic/addict. I never saw it as who I am, but I saw it for what it was, that I had lost all control and gave myself a way as a result of the addition.
I am sure their are those that feel that way, but I had a low bottom, I lost myself by the immoral acts I did.
The drink allowed me not to feel the sin or the guilt of the sin. I drank because I didn't want to know how I felt or how you felt. I drank because I didn't want to care.
That saying; I took the drink, and the drink took me.
A.A. is not the enemy here, it is our own EGO's that keeps us in ignorance.
I believe there are many ways to get sober. Mine happened to be A.A. for you or someone else it was something else. Think of all the people that are now free of their additions because of what you and I have shared through the grace of God. We are all merely messenger of God. Not one better than another but servents of God, trying on a daily bases to do Gods will, not mine. Thank you and may God Bless.

Matthew 9: 37
Then saith he unto his disciples. the harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Matthew 21: 1
And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

 

[LoG]

My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction.

Going by the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous the identification is actually "Recovered" Alcoholic or Addict for those whom the obsession has been removed as a result of following the 12 Steps.
It is a witness for the purpose of identification of what God has saved me from, not what I am today.

 

[themessagecarrier]

The lay 12 step programs that can technically be called cults because they do not recognize Jesus as God, where never intended to be what they are today.
They used to say they were "Recovered Alcoholics", etc. So, they never had a problem of labeling themselves as addicts or alcoholics. Sure, if they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and did not do the rest of the steps then of course they are "still" "alcoholics, etc. You see, without Jesus and the steps their is no recovery, only relapses and repeated failures. That is why you see people with 20 years going out or doing some sin that ruins their life. Because, unless you have done the first nine steps and are living in the last three, their is no recovery, There is no easier softer way!

 

[BobW188]

I long ago accepted Jesus Christ and am a recovering alcoholic through the "lay" program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I consider both my faith and the lessons I learned from those years of drinking and these years of recovery to be gifts from God. Whatever there is of good in me was refined in that fire. As to the drinking not being "who I was," I know many who've been there will join me in saying "I didn't drink; I was a drunk."

 

[madison1101]

I have no problem with saying that I am an alcoholic. It conveys to the people in the room that I identify with them in their attempts to recovery from the disease of alcoholism. It is an equalizer, in that I am no better or worse than they are. I know that I am not my alcoholism. I also know that if I forget I have the disease of alcoholism, which I have done when I stray from my AA meetings, I will, and have, relapsed. Saying I am an alcoholic keeps me humble enough to keep seeking God's help to stay sober.

Do you have the same issue with people who have the disease of diabetes saying they are diabetics? What about people with schizophrenia saying they are schizophrenic? There are many diseases that people have and identify themselves as patients with that disease, or recovering from that disease. I am also recovering from bipolar disorder. I often say that I am bipolar, which communicates that I have the mental illness of bipolar disorder. I do not identify with my illness or my alcoholism. They are illnesses that I must deal with and work to maintain.

I hope this makes sense.

Trish

 

[RichardB1980]

Sure, if they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and did not do the rest of the steps then of course they are "still" "alcoholics, etc. You see, without Jesus and the steps their is no recovery, only relapses and repeated failures.

I have to disagree. I was an alcoholic for a few years not too long ago. i never even went to a 12 step program nor did I accept Jesus and I am no longer a drinker today. As a matter of fact in my family history there is a long line of alcoholics whom of which had recovered, never went to a 12 step program nor accepted Jesus. We all did it under our own power and with no help at all. I also mention that no one ever relapsed either. I was the one with the shortest reign. I drank heavily for only 2yrs before I stopped. My grandfather had the longest at 28yrs.

 

[devonian]

I have to disagree. I was an alcoholic for a few years not too long ago. i never even went to a 12 step program nor did I accept Jesus and I am no longer a drinker today. As a matter of fact in my family history there is a long line of alcoholics whom of which had recovered, never went to a 12 step program nor accepted Jesus. We all did it under our own power and with no help at all. I also mention that no one ever relapsed either. I was the one with the shortest reign. I drank heavily for only 2yrs before I stopped. My grandfather had the longest at 28yrs.

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer an alcoholic, but your description of leads me to wonder if you ever were an alcoholic. You seem to be describing a heavy drinker, a problem drinker, or possibly even a potential acloholic. These are all serious conditions in themselves, but alcoholism, according to AA, is not defined by the amount of alcohol or the number of years it is consumed, it is defined by the inability to stop once starting, and the complete lack of power to stop starting. If you had the power to stop starting, you would not be an alcoholic, according to the AA definition.

Of course, you may be using a different definition of alcoholism, but since this is a 12 step forum, I think it is reasonable to assume that the 12 step definition is used here.


To everyone else:
I also do not find the statement "Hello I'm ______, and I'm an ______", problematic for christians. In many ways its not much different than admitting that I am a sinner, and alcoholics do not hold a monopoly on sin. We could fill the blank with: "I'm ______and I am a sinner." and be consistent with the bible.

However, it can be problematic for a person who is not an alcoholic. They may overcome their problem drinking, and claim to have the power to overcome it without the need for God.

For others, who are alcoholics, this can also be problematic. They may give up and say I cant change. So, they won't try, even though they can recover, if they submit to God, and become willing to accept his help.

But the problem is not in the statement: "Hello I'm ______, and I'm an ______", it is in their lack of understanding that God can and will help the suffering alcoholic recover if they are willing to accept his help.

 

[RichardB1980]

You seem to be describing a heavy drinker, a problem drinker, or possibly even a potential acloholic. These are all serious conditions in themselves, but alcoholism, according to AA, is not defined by the amount of alcohol or the number of years it is consumed, it is defined by the inability to stop once starting, and the complete lack of power to stop starting. If you had the power to stop starting, you would not be an alcoholic, according to the AA definition.

Of course, you may be using a different definition of alcoholism, but since this is a 12 step forum, I think it is reasonable to assume that the 12 step definition is used here.

I don't know what the AA definition is since I never attended meetings. I was told to attend meetings when I attacked a cop to get his gun so I could shoot myself but, I never did cause I moved out of state.

That is where my problem lies. I am still that way today. If you put beer/alcohol in front of me then I will not stop until I pass out or it is gone. The only way for me to not drink is to not go and buy it in the first place. I drive to and from work on roads that have no convenient stores or places that sell beer/liquor so I won't be tempted to go and get some. When I do want to drink, my roommate will go and buy it and she doesn't buy excessive amounts so, that does limit my drinking. Besides everyone I tell my story to says I was an alcoholic, even my former psychologist.

 

[devonian]

I don't know what the AA definition is since I never attended meetings. I was told to attend meetings when I attacked a cop to get his gun so I could shoot myself but, I never did cause I moved out of state.

That is where my problem lies. I am still that way today. If you put beer/alcohol in front of me then I will not stop until I pass out or it is gone. The only way for me to not drink is to not go and buy it in the first place. I drive to and from work on roads that have no convenient stores or places that sell beer/liquor so I won't be tempted to go and get some. When I do want to drink, my roommate will go and buy it and she doesn't buy excessive amounts so, that does limit my drinking. Besides everyone I tell my story to says I was an alcoholic, even my former psychologist.

Thank you for clarifying. By your description, you seem to meet half the definition of an alcoholic. You lack the ability to stop once you start. The next part, the inability to stay stopped, takes a little time to determine. Try completely staying away from any mind altering substances for a year. If you are counting the days for the year to be over, this might be a sign that you can't stop starting either. If you decide you fit the second part also, I would be glad to help you find a solution.

By the way, please don't let any preconceived notion of "God" or "Jesus" keep you away from finding a solution, if you decide you need a solution. Most alcoholics initially find this part of the AA program difficult. As long as you don't close your mind to the possible existence of God, that is all that is needed to start. There is a lot more that would have to be done, but it is a good start.

 

[irenemcg]

OVERCOMERS CHRISTIAN RECOVERY SUPPORT GROUPS

USING THE 12 STEPS AND SCRIPTURES



*The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous with corresponding Scriptures

*These Steps work for any addiction or compulsion! Simply replace the work “alcohol” with your own presenting problem. Study of these Steps is essential to progress in this program. The principles they embody are universal, applicable to everyone whatever his/her personal creed. We strive for an ever deeper understanding of these Steps and pray for God’s wisdom to apply them to our lives.



**The Twelve Steps are reprinted and adapted with Permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. Permission to reprint and adapt the Twelve steps does not mean that AA is affiliated with Overcomers Outreach. AA is a program of recovery from alcoholism—use of the Twelve Steps in connection with programs and activities which are patterned after AA, but which address other problems, does not imply otherwise.



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable. “We felt we were doomed to die and say how POWERLESS we were to help ourselves; but that was good, for then we put everything into the hands of God, who alone could save us.” II Corinthians 1:9



2. Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. “A man is a fool to trust himself! But those who use God’s wisdom are safe.” Proverbs 28:26



3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. “Trust in the Lord completely; don’t’ ever trust yourself. In everything you do, put God first, and he will direct you and crown your efforts with success.” Proverbs 3:5-6



4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. “Let us examine ourselves and repent and turn again to the Lord. Let us lift our hearts and our hands to Him in heaven.” Lamentations 3:40-41



5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. “Admit your faults to one another and pray for each other so that you may be healed.” James 5:16



6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. “So give yourselves humbly to God… then, when you realize your worthlessness before the Lord, He will lift you up, encourage and help you.” James 4:7-10



7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. “But if we confess our sins to Him, He can be depended on to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong.” I John 1:9



8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. “If you are standing before the altar…and suddenly remember that a friend has something against you, leave your sacrifice there and go and be reconciled…and then come an offer your sacrifice to God.” Matthew 5:23-24



9. Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. “You can pray for anything, and if you believe, you have it; it’s yours? But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive you your sins too.” Mark 11:24-25



10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. “But how can I ever know what sins are lurking in my heart? Cleanse me from these hidden faults. And keep me from deliberate wrongs; help me to stop doing them. Only then can I be set free of guilt.” Psalm 19:12



11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. “If you want better insight and discernment, and are searching for them as you would for lost money or hidden treasure, then wisdom will be given you, and knowledge of God Himself, you will soon learn the importance of reverence for the Lord and of trusting Him.” Proverbs 2:3-5



12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. “Quietly trust yourself to Christ your Lord and if anybody asks why you believe as you do, be ready to tell him, and do it in a gentle and respectful way.” I Peter 3:15

 

[Christos Anesti]

The lay 12 step programs that can technically be called cults because they do not recognize Jesus as God

AA would have to be a religion in order to be a cult. It isn't . One might as well try to say that my local baseball team is a cult because they don't officially pronounce that Christ is God in any of their literature.

They used to say they were "Recovered Alcoholics", etc

If I'm recovered and no longer an alcoholic I should be able to have "just one drink" or maybe just drink on the weekends like other non-alcoholics can do. At least thats how many people think and by throwing out the word "recovered" and replacing it with "recovering" it helps keep people striving to improve themselves and not falling into a dangerous complacency that can lead to relapse. There is also a big differnce between being in active addiction and being a recovering adict.

 

[RuthD]

The lay 12 step programs that can technically be called cults because they do not recognize Jesus as God, where never intended to be what they are today.
They used to say they were "Recovered Alcoholics", etc. So, they never had a problem of labeling themselves as addicts or alcoholics. Sure, if they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and did not do the rest of the steps then of course they are "still" "alcoholics, etc. You see, without Jesus and the steps their is no recovery, only relapses and repeated failures. That is why you see people with 20 years going out or doing some sin that ruins their life. Because, unless you have done the first nine steps and are living in the last three, their is no recovery, There is no easier softer way!

Many in AA are Christians and follow the path of Jesus Christ. They allow for others who are not sure about their faith to pick a higher power of their own. It is so that they will rely on some kind of God to them so they can work the 12 steps. I am not advocating this, I am nuetral on this. Just explaining what I think.

 

[ephraimanesti]

My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction. For people who know who they are in Christ(which I suspect would be a very small number when we're talking about addicts) this probably isn't a problem, but for most I can see where it might be. I understand that the idea behind that thinking is to covey the idea that the issue is one which the person will always, to some degree struggle with or be tempted by, but I think one needs to be very careful to avoid taking their identity from their addiction. The addictive behavior is something they do, it is not who they are.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

i am not clear on what the difference is between my stating "Hello, my name is Ephraim and i am a drunk and a junkie" and my stating "Hello, my name is Ephraim and i am a sinner."

Given that sin is our PRIMARY ADDICTION, i believe it is just as important that i remind myself of the often very real possibility of relapsing back into chemical usage as it is to remind myself of the very real possibility of my reverting to actively engaging in my past sinful behaviors.

Chemical usage and sinful behaviors are BOTH what we do and what we are. It behoves us to neither forget or to engage in glossing the facts--both for our sobriety and for our Salvation.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim