Once saved

[Manna House Ministries]

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

 

[St_Worm2]

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

Hi MHM, outside of the Gay/Christian debate, there are probably more posts on this subject at CF than any other I can think of. I would certainly think it ranks in the top 5 anyway. The only difference in your thread is you posted on the Denomination "Specific" board. Did you have a particular church in mind that you intended to address your question to? If you're interested in finding out what other CF-ers, in general, think about this subject however, just do a search on "OSAS".

 

[Mr Dave]

Here's the latest thread from Wesley's Parish on this topic;

http://www.christianforums.com/t7495354/

Although, as is mentioned in the thread, I would say that getting to Heaven is the final part of the process of salvation, not something you can guarantee for yourself by declaring yourself 'saved'.

 

[outOftheLoop]

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

everyone is destined by God to be with Him forever, but everyone does not get to Heaven because not everyone does God's will, which summed up can be said this way: doing everything He wants and none of what He doesn't want.

I dont believe in OSAS. It's not in the Bible, so i don't know who came up with othe than the devil.

JEsus said it is very hard to get to heaven and that there are few who make it. (Mt 7, etc)

 

[JonF]

Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

I like the Calvinist take on this question. The answer they give is perseverance of the saints. We maintain that it’s not automatic or intrinsic at all. Instead we hold that is maintained by God and his mercy.

 

[yohonron]

Hello MHM,
There are many who believe in "once saved always saved". Here are just a couple of verses to consider-
MAtthew 7:21-22 -
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

It's interesting to note that many will say that they "prophesied" and "cast out demons" in Jesus' name! We have no reason to think that they didn't do what they claimed. And, in order to do those things one must have been a vessel in which the Holy Spirit had performed those miracles. Nevertheless, they were alimately condemned in the end (Apostates).

It seems unreasonable to assume that One could "prophesy and cast out demons" without once being in a saving relationship with God through Christ Jesus. Therefore, we must conclude that these were once in a saving relationship and by their own free-will chose to turn from that Saving Grace and Apostisize -
2 Peter 2:20-21 -
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

These verses seem to indicate that one who is in a saving relationship with God can sever and apostisize by their own free-will at any time. They have a chance to either walk afer the "Spirit" or after the "flesh" (Gal 5:16-17; Rom 8:4, 13).

Hope this comment has stirred your spirit.

Cheers,
Yohonron



Manna House Ministries;55681563]A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?[/quote]

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello MHM,
There are many who believe in "once saved always saved". Here are just a couple of verses to consider-
MAtthew 7:21-22 -
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

It seems unreasonable to assume that one could "prophesy and cast out demons" without once being in a saving relationship with God through Christ Jesus. Therefore, we must conclude that these were once in a saving relationship ...

Hi Yohonron, unreasonable assumptions and speculative conclusions aside, I think the verse you left out tells the real story here. Here is Matthew 7:21-23:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ ​

​

I agree with you that these folks were indeed performing miraculous signs and wonders. Just one of the frightening things that this passage teaches us however is that all miracles are NOT of Divine origin!!

It is also not a passage that can be used to teach that salvation can be gained and then lost as the folks described here clearly never had saving faith to begin with.​

Yours and His,
David​

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising
if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, 
whose end will be according to their deeds.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15​

 

[St_Worm2]

I dont believe in OSAS. It's not in the Bible, so i don't know who came up with othe than the devil.

Hi OOTL, it wasn't the devil!! St. John tells us that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, is under promise to His Father (John 6:37-40) and to His sheep directly (John 10:28-29) to keep them so that they never perish ..

Also, in His high-priestly prayer before His passion Jesus asked that those whom the Father had given Him (John 17:2, 6, 9, 24) would be preserved to glory, and it is inconceivable that His prayer, which still continues (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25), will go unanswered ..

Romans 8:30 says it nicely as well,

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
​

And Romans 8:31-39 expands on this same theme, that those who are truly "in Christ" will NEVER be separated from Him. Just for fun, replace the word "those" in Romans 8:30 with the word "some". Is that really the way you believe the Scriptures teach that God will act in our regard?

JEsus said it is very hard to get to heaven and that there are few who make it. (Mt 7, etc)

This actually has nothing to do with OSAS and I don't know anyone except universalists who would disagree with it.

Yours and His,
David

I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you
will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 1:6​

 

[outOftheLoop]

Hi OOTL, St. John tells us that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, is under promise to His Father (John 6:37-40) and to His sheep directly (John 10:28-29) to keep them so that they never perish!

Also, in His high-priestly prayer before His passion Jesus asked that those whom the Father had given Him (John 17:2, 6, 9, 24) would be preserved to glory, and it is inconceivable that His prayer, which still continues (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25), will go unanswered.

Romans 8:30 says it nicely as well,

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"​

​

And Romans 8:31-39 expands on this same theme, that those who are truly "in Christ" will NEVER be separated from Him. Just for fun, replace the word "those" in Romans 8:30 with the word "some". Is that really the way you believe the Scriptures teach that God will act in our regard?





This actually has nothing to do with OSAS and I don't know anyone except universalists who would disagree with it.

Yours and His,
David

I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you
will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 1:6​

this psg speaks only of what the will of the Father is! IT is God's will that none be lost; that isn't to say that none will ever be lost (thorugh grievous, unrepented of sin); it does not say that salvation is guaranteed if you accept Christ as your personal savior in a one-time event. nowheere in the Word does it say that


here's the psg you refer to:

"All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. [38] Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. [39] Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. [40] And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day."


Jesus says that they MAY have life everlasting, if thye persevered in Him. Elsewhere in the Word it says that "he who endures to the end will be saved." In another psg it says something about "being saved" (sorry, don't have my Bible handy) - BEING saved, not ARE saved

Jesus speaks (in the psg you give) of all those whom the Father has given him. These would be those who, led by the Father, realize that Jesus is the Way & therefore, come to Him for help/salvation. It is unlikely that those given to Him by the Father will falter significantly once they realize who Jesus is, even tho life will test their faith every step of the way & they will have moments when they fall or begin to fall...

i believe there are cases in which the Father isn't necessarily the one appearing to give the Son certain individuals who have "accepted" Him... meaning everyone who goes to church isn't necessarily there to serve God and etc... but my mind is wandering somewhat here... feel like i am getting into what is only - or primarily - God's domain here. all i know is that a person cannot, in a one-time event, acept Christ & then commit any sin he wants & still get to Heaven! this is a monstrous lie from the devil. if anything, our sins make us more dirty after we have accepted Him. Jesus & sin cannot co-habit harmoniously in a person's soul.

Jesus dying on the Cross does not change the nature of sin - & its awful consequences on the soul. When a person sins, he changes his soul's condition & must get back with Jesus in any & all ways he can in order to cleanse his soul from the damage that's been done by sin. the normative way this is to be done (the process begun anyway) is through sacramental absolution, as per St Jn 20:19, where Jesus gives the 1st priests & bishops of the Church the power to forgive sins (or not - if the person is not repentant). this commandment of binding & loosing was given to the Apostles, the first bishops of the Church, not just any ordinary person calling himself a believer. Yes, we can & should forgive our brethren for their sins against us personally & there is power in that, but that's not what i am referring to. Reconciliation w/ a priest is a SACRAMENT that gives grace (restores grace...), the grace that Christ gives through his sacrifice & through his original Church, a Church he promised would never be overcome by the "gates of Hell" (St Mt 16:18)

 

[outOftheLoop]

2 Peter 2:20-21 -
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Yohonron



]

yes but that last psg doesn't mean that people who have once been baptized into Christ & have tasted the goodness of his grace cannot be restored to his grace. it doesn't mean the soul that has gone astray is hopeless. This is improtant because a lot of nonCatholics think this is so, i being one of them (years ago. i was never a "nonCatholic" but i wasn't catechized until several yrs ago, wasn't in the Church, etc). I was filled w/ the Holy Spirit when a teenager & for a couple yrs was madly in love with Jesus and everything was fine, but "things" happend & i fell away. for years i went through various experiences & my spirituality went gradually down-hill. Then one day i prayed the rosary & began seeing things differently. its a very long story waht all i went through but i came back to Christ, even in spite of the devil telling me i was hopeless, that i might as well stop w/ the rosary already because God didn't want me back
But because a person's soul is more "dirtied" (my word) after having been filled w/ the HS (then sinning), he has more to endure in getting back in totally right relationshiop with God. You can see a small stain on a brand new white sheet much better than you can on an old, printed one

anyway, i have found that only the Catholic Church can put this "Humpty Dumpty" of my miserable soul back together again: the power of the mass, Confession, the rosary, the Real Presence. People outside the Church don't know what they are missing. yes, there are unsavory people therein who don't much resemble Christians... but oh well. Jesus is there.

 

[outOftheLoop]

I like the Calvinist take on this question. The answer they give is perseverance of the saints. We maintain that it’s not automatic or intrinsic at all. Instead we hold that is maintained by God and his mercy.

you forgot the most important thing:

Our cooperation!!!​

Jesus and his graces are wasted if the person does not accept them & use them to purify his soul

 

[outOftheLoop]

I like the Calvinist take on this question. The answer they give is perseverance of the saints. We maintain that it’s not automatic or intrinsic at all. Instead we hold that is maintained by God and his mercy.

and our cooperation with same..

 

[emilio]

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

This teaching is not according to the teaching of the apostles.

As Peter said,

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” [Prov. 11:31] (1Pe. 4:17-18)

Also Paul said,

Also, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. , (1Co. 9:27)

Paul said “I beat my body and make it my slave”. Beating it means mastering it away from sins and later not disqualified for the prize, the eternal life…

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. (Ez. 33:18-19)

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2Pe. 3:16)

 

[Eschat]

you forgot the most important thing:

Our cooperation!!!​

Jesus and his graces are wasted if the person does not accept them & use them to purify his soul

Grace does not purify, only the blood of Jesus purifies. Grace is what the blood represents. Unearned and Unmerited. Then Jesus said it is finished.

 

[E.C.]

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

No.

 

[Chemnitz]

Osas is evidence of a skewed focus.

It really is an answer to questions about oneself and has the individual person as it's focus. The real answer to such questions is, "cling to the cross and don't worry about it."

 

[outOftheLoop]

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. (Ez. 33:18-19)

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2Pe. 3:16)

thanks for these interesting psgs

I've read them many times b4 but .. nice to see them applied where needed...

I don't know how anyone can read the Bible and believe in OSAS!! When someone says they believe in that, i automatically know one thing about that person: s/he doesn't know the Bible well.

another good psg (if you are looking for one?) is St Mt 18:23. God forgives the person totally (the king, that is, but it is a parable about God) He wipes out the entire debt!! (God's mercy)

But then when the person refusesto forgive someone else a much smaller debt, that entire debt that was once wiped out by God COMES BACK (as it were) Now the once totally forgiven person has to pay back that debt and to the very last penny... and he can't get out until he does...

some scholars say this implies Purgatory... it implies a time when the debt will once again be paid...

We had all better hope that that is true, that we who have a hard time totally forgiving others (and etc) are given a chance in the next life to be purified of our... [whatever]... and we ALL have a hard time forgiving others their sins against us...

If we don't forgive, we will not be forgiven (another anti-OSAS psg)

But if we TRY and are working on forgiveness... but then die b4 we can accomplish such a feat..

there is Purgatory

 

[outOftheLoop]

Grace does not purify, only the blood of Jesus purifies. Grace is what the blood represents. Unearned and Unmerited. Then Jesus said it is finished.

Grace purifies... It is God's Spirit in us

 

[yohonron]

yes but that last psg doesn't mean that people who have once been baptized into Christ & have tasted the goodness of his grace cannot be restored to his grace. it doesn't mean the soul that has gone astray is hopeless. This is improtant because a lot of nonCatholics think this is so, i being one of them (years ago. i was never a "nonCatholic" but i wasn't catechized until several yrs ago, wasn't in the Church, etc). I was filled w/ the Holy Spirit when a teenager & for a couple yrs was madly in love with Jesus and everything was fine, but "things" happend & i fell away. for years i went through various experiences & my spirituality went gradually down-hill. Then one day i prayed the rosary & began seeing things differently. its a very long story waht all i went through but i came back to Christ, even in spite of the devil telling me i was hopeless, that i might as well stop w/ the rosary already because God didn't want me back
But because a person's soul is more "dirtied" (my word) after having been filled w/ the HS (then sinning), he has more to endure in getting back in totally right relationshiop with God. You can see a small stain on a brand new white sheet much better than you can on an old, printed one

anyway, i have found that only the Catholic Church can put this "Humpty Dumpty" of my miserable soul back together again: the power of the mass, Confession, the rosary, the Real Presence. People outside the Church don't know what they are missing. yes, there are unsavory people therein who don't much resemble Christians... but oh well. Jesus is there.

Hello outoftheloop,
Thank you for sharing your testamony. I think testamonies are important among professing believers. As far as the Catholic Church and your coming back to Christ, that's great and I am glad to hear of your willingness to repent (Luke 13:3) and return to Christ Jesus.
Still, I was brought-up Catholic and went to a Catholic School, baptized and confirmed and so much more. I have NOTHING BAD to say about those who attend mass and other things the Catholic Church provides. I have just come to learn so muchg more than I did when I was in Catholic School and church. I have come to learn about the many "traditions" that the Catholic Church still teach and have been for so long. I understand what the "real presence" is in the Host. But do you realize while you're listening to the priest, who is holding up the Host, that "he is asking God to make THIS (Host) BECOME FOR US the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?" Cannabalism is outlawed in both the OLD & NEW TESTAMENT. Also, the dinking of blood is outlawed in the Old and New Tesaments. How can one deduce from Jhn 6:55 and others that Jesus wants us to "eat His flesh and drink His LITERAL Blood" from these passages when it is clearly taught otherwise concerning the eating of human flesh and blood ;
1Cr 10:18 , "They who eat . . . are partakers" (joint communicants). "Is" in both cases in this verse is literal, not represents. He who with faith partakes of the cup and the bread, partakes really but spiritually of the blood and body of Christ ( Eph 5:30, 32 ), and of the benefits of His sacrifice on the cross (compare 1Cr 10:18 ). In contrast to this is to have "fellowship with devils" ( 1Cr 10:20 ). ALFORD explains, "The cup . . . is the [joint] participation (that is, that whereby the act of participation takes place) of the blood," &c. It is the seal of our living union with, and a means of our partaking of, Christ as our Saviour ( Jhn 653-57). It is not said, "The cup . . . is the blood," or "the bread . . . is the body," but "is the communion [joint-participation] of the blood . . . body." If the bread be changed into the literal body of Christ, where is the sign of the sacrament? Romanists eat Christ "in remembrance of Himself." To drink literal blood would have been an abomination to Jews, which the first Christians were (Lev 17:11-12). Breaking the bread was part of the act of consecrating it, for thus was represented the crucifixion of Christ's body (1 Cor 11:24). The distinct specification of the bread and the wine disproves the Romish doctrine of concomitancy, and exclusion of the laity from the cup.

Cheers,
Yohonron

 

[JonF]

and our cooperation with same..

which is made possible and guaranteed by God's grace.