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Once Saved, Always Saved?

Reformationist

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Debbi said:
So, you believe that it would be alright for me to just blow my brains out and God would still welcome me to heaven?
I did not say it would be alright. I said it wouldn't be the determining factor in your place in the family of God.

As long as I had gotten saved once when I was a kid, don't matter what kind of life I lived afterwards or what addictions I got into? Or the occult stuff I had been into?
The scenario you paint is a strawman because it presupposes that true salvation isn't accompanied by a change in our nature. I don't advocate antinomianism so that is not, or should not, be part of this discussion. I firmly believe that if God gives someone the gift of saving faith then they are made anew, to include their desires. I do not say this to imply that Christians cease sinning. I merely acknowledge that if God sovereignly and divinely rebirths a person they are indwelt with His Spirit and it is no longer their nature to continue to live sinful lifestyles. Anyone whom God has truly regenerated can attest to the fact that while we may continue to sin our own soul is grieved when we do so. This is not simply because we've latched on to some moral standard but, rather, because God has graciously seen fit to give us a new nature and, in doing so, changed the desires of our heart. This monergistic act of God will effectively continue to transform and conform us to the image of God.

You can justify it by saying I was just depressed, don't matter what it would do to my family, friends or bother God? Sorry, I have a little trouble buying all this.
I would never say that so I don't have a clue why you'd feel the need to "buy it."

If a person really and truly knew and felt God's love, they would think twice about all this too.
My point exactly. If a person is a child of God then the idea of "blowing their brains out" is something that I imagine would be quite rare. As it is, if a true Christian did commit such an act of rebellion the unfortunate thing is that there is no opportunity to learn from their mistake. As for whether it would preclude them from their inheritance I can only offer that the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior is sufficient in reconciling them to God. If you feel that is insufficient then I suggest you never blow your brains out.

But I thought this was suppose to be a thread for non-christians.
The opening post was by a non-Christian but the question of whether you would still be saved was asked by you. Granted, I took your Christian icon to mean that you were Christian so I was answering based on the assumption that you are, in fact, a Christian.

Non-christians that never was saved to start with wasn't saved to start with.
As you can see in post 22 my answer was different for a non Christian.

I'm sorry, I lost your point.
Likewise, I fail to see yours.

Even though I'm saved, I don't believe I would go to heaven if I committed suicide and I don't want to try it to prove the point.
I agree that doing something like that to try to prove your point would be a bit unnecessary so I encourage you to refrain.

God bless
 
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TheMainException

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I believe that you would. Please, if you don't mind, PM me as to why you left the Christian faith...just if that's okay with you. I'm not trying to invade on your privacy, I am just interested as to reasons why people stop believing in the Christian God.
 
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All4one

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The principle here is simple. Salvation is not a thing to doubt. Salvation is not. It is not past nor future. Because you may believe you were saved in the past does not make you saved now and just because a perosn may think salvation will come in the future does not save them for present times.
What if Jesus had stopped short of Calvary and dropped the cross on the ground and walked away? As Paul says we are to finish the race that is set before us for the prize God has awaiting us. The reward only comes when the race is done and God can say "Well done good and faithful servent."
God only has two grounds to judge.
1: Depart from me you who work iniquity, I never knew you.
2: Well done good and faithful servent. You have proven trustworthy in a few things now I will place you in charge of many?

In your heart at this very moment what do you hear God saying? Be truthful with yourself and ignore satans side... rebuke it. Once saved always saved is a farce. We cannot live half this life for God and the other half without. This is lukewarm. When I say this I mean after salvation. The starting point of Gods records is when you were saved... He sees no past. Is your salvation period of life half for God and half not?
I say these things in love for I have faced this appealing comment before but I say beware... satan tells half truths which are in actuality whole lies!

Love Ya Brother,
All4one
 
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Reformationist

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All4one said:
The principle here is simple. Salvation is not a thing to doubt. Salvation is not.
Umm...sorry, but that principle seems a bit redundant. Is that what you meant to type?

The reward only comes when the race is done and God can say "Well done good and faithful servent."
Poor All4one. I have been rewarded with blessings for years now and my race surely isn't done. I'm sorry to hear that your Christian life has been without blessings.

God only has two grounds to judge.
1: Depart from me you who work iniquity, I never knew you.
2: Well done good and faithful servent. You have proven trustworthy in a few things now I will place you in charge of many?
Neat. So much for salvation by grace. #1 deals with doing what we're not supposed to do, i.e., unrighteous works. #2 deals with doing what you are supposed to do, i.e., righteous works. These are the things that you think either merit or disqualify you from inheriting eternal life? Good luck with that.

Once saved always saved is a farce. We cannot live half this life for God and the other half without. This is lukewarm. When I say this I mean after salvation.
All4one, seriously, learn about a view before you argue against it. It's clear by your argument against antinomianism you know nothing about the biblical doctrine of eternal security. All that does is make your witness less credible.

The starting point of Gods records is when you were saved... He sees no past.
He sees no past for whom? For those who are saved? What about the past of those who aren't saved? Also, are you actually contending that once we are saved God starts grading us and our performance as Christians determines our worthiness for inheriting eternal life? Do you think you are saved because you get a passing score based on your own works?

Is your salvation period of life half for God and half not?
Ask yourself All4one. Is your "salvation period of life" for God when you resist sin's influence and not for God when you don't?

I say these things in love for I have faced this appealing comment before but I say beware... satan tells half truths which are in actuality whole lies!
Agreed. Salvation by works is one of lies he tells and, unfortunately, it's seems to be something you've bought into heavily.

God bless
 
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All4one

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My message was erased once because it took so long to write and was so detailed. I will address the issue in truth and reality. Reformationist, as I see you posted before, I do not appreciate your criticism and mockery. I believe the purpose here is to reply in such a way that it helps the person with the question... Not everyone elses messages. As for going through my suggestions and truths and saying they are wronge I believe a more effective approach would be to answer the question at hand with biblical truth and not sarcasm to others remarks.
First of all. We cannot die of the things of this world and just get up again. What im saying is we cannot die with Christ or be hung on the cross with Him and then decide to get down or leave Him there.
This message was very long and detailed before but im not sure I could remember all the things before.
Our covenant of salvation with God is a conditional one. It says, "Everything I have is your." This comes from God and us as well.
Luke 9:62- But Jesus told him," Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God."
Every confession in the old testament has a counter-part in the new.
Genesis 19:26- But Lot's wife looked back as she was following along behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
As I said before Christ did not stop short and drop the cross and say im through and Paul says to run the race.
Look back through the bible and find me one person who was assured salvation who was not living for God of professing His name. Moses? Paul? Jesus? Peter? David? Zerubbabel? There is not one... and are we not supposed to live by this word example?
Look at Galatians 5:19-21 at the list of fruits produced by an evil spirit. Now take notice of what it says near the end of verse 21," That anyone living that sort of life will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God." Now assuming that everyone here accepts the word for what it is I might add that God knew what He was doing when He wrote the bible. He did not say: " That anyone living that sort of life will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God... EXCEPT THOSE WHO WERE SAVED EARLIER." This si common sense and a fact that cannot be argued. I am a firm believer that an apple tree cannot produce grapes unless God says it is so. In figure God says that a bad tree or one that produces these fruits cannot enter His Kingdom.
Now check out Galatians 5:22-23 which lists the fruits of the Holy Spirit which is GODS SPIRIT. So what do we find here? It is so simple. Gods spirit does not produce evil fruits so what does? Do you have Gods spirit if you are producing those fruits... absolutely not.
Another point that is unaviodable is Romans 10:13- For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Lets us not twist the word of God... It says calls! It does not say anyone who called on the name of the Lord will be saved nor does it say anyone who might call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Call is an action verb in the present tense. It is an everyday thing not a once in a lifetime ticket to heaven.
Revelation says clearly that Jesus stands at the door and knocks and anyone who opens the door invited Jesus to sup' with them. This does not say "and Jesus is locked in and cannot leave." In theory Jesus eats with you the fruits that you produce and to keep Him alive in you and the fruits growing you have to have Jesus.
We recieve the Holy Spirit to seal Gods promise of salvation as well as complete His task... Producing spoiled fruits is NOT his task.
Remember that every old testament reference has a New Testament counter-part. Malachi 3:7 states," Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my laws and failed to obey them. Now return to me and I will return to you," says the Lord almighty.
To say that we can have the Holy Spirit while we live in the world is like saying salvation is automatically given to us weather we want it or not. Gods grace is VERY sufficiant.. Yes, but He gives His grace to those who WANT it.
Romans 2:8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
O wait sooooooo we are saved by grace BUT by faith! Don't drink the milk without the cookies. Supplying the fruits of an evil spirit is not faith in God. I don't care how long you have been "saved" or when you plan on doing it... Salvation is a present thing either alive and well or gone.
When Paul referred to finishing the race before us he meant life. We must run the whole race to the finish line... Do those who stop midway get a reward? Revelation says those who are lukewarm will be spewed from Gods mouth... Im assuming this is a bad thing?!@ Yes it is.. and who are the lukewarm people? Would it be the saved who are fully in Christ or those who outwardly rebuke Him... Neither. It is those who are neither hot or cold but those who have accepted salvation but still live on a boarder line. They are not cold with the world nor are they on fire for Christ and God despises this!
Putting ANYTHING above God in life is idol worship and salvation is ONLY found in God.
Acts 4:12- There is salvation in no one else! There is no other name in all of heaven for people to call on to save them." I assure you that if we live for anything other then God we are submitting ourselves to it. Romans 6:16... whatever we choose to obey becomes our master and only one master hold our salvation. God has chosen the time of our salvation but "behold for today is the day of salvation." This statement is passive. Today is every day, we are saved from our sins every single day of our life.

In all this I have come to one conclusion about this statement that is NEVER mentioned or is even obviouse in the bible. It is a fake from satan taking part of Gods word and making it a whole lie. Most of the people I have known to believe this live their own lifestyle aside from God and that is the very reason they believe it. Once again I challenge anyone to find someone in the bible who was promised salvation that WAS NOT living for God.
Find a Manasseh in a reverse order. Find someone who became "saved" and then sacraficed their children to unknown gods and was completely evil in all their works and I want to see where God gives them salvation even though they do not want it. All this ludicrous statement is is a relaxer to all those who want to serve God their own way and not His.
And yes Reformationist I say these things in love and do understand them. Next time you may want to criticize yourself before you point out someones typo- (first criticism made concerning my last post.) If you have any more comments it may be best to PM me. Im sure you don't like me criticizing you in the open room so return the feeling brother.

Please listen with a heart of God to what has been said,
If you need detailed prayer please PM me, I will praying anyways.
In Christs Love,
All4one
 
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Reformationist

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By all means, I agree. Tell me again why you made critical, sarcastic, and mocking statements about your view of a doctrine I hold near and dear?:

All4one said:
Once saved always saved is a farce
Let me guess, you were only talking about my sarcasm and mockery, not your own, right?
 
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All4one

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Reformationist I am not personalizing these things. When I say once saved always saved is a farce I am not pointing at you but the thought and belief in general. I will no longer argue this matter for it is settled. All you are doing here is causing strife and not applying your beliefs.

In Love,
All4one
 
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anunbeliever

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Imagine a situation where a man is truly saved, and years later his faith fails and he becomes an athiest. Now God, being omniscient, knew he would turn away. Wouldnt it have been just for God to kill this man while he was a believer so that his salvation is assured. By allowing him to live and become an athiest, God has lost him.
 
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anunbeliever

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forgivensinner001 said:
1. God can't claim to allow free will if His prevention of someone's suffering interferes with my actions just because my actions might (deliberately or accidentally) result in someone's suffering.
The bible is full of instances where God acted against a persons free will. Eg Saul becomes Paul. Noone has free will anyway since all men are "slaves to sin".
2. Why bother watching a favorite movie if you know how it's going to end? God didn't make us sinners, we did that all by ourselves.
God created man knowing 100% of them would sin. Therefore its a design flaw. If God is omnipotent, then he has the power to make people who dont sin.
 
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MinDach

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If this question is true, then I would say you are still a Christian, because you are on a Christian site looking. Jesus said he will not lose even ( ONE ) sheep, he is always looking for the one who has gone astray. The problem can lay in the person who says he was a Christian, and really never was. For the sheep know's the Shepherd Voice, and the Shepherd know who his sheep are.
 
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markie

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Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Adam had freewill, he chose to sin. Adam was given dominion over all the earth, when he sinned he gave that to the devil.
2. God could have made us robot's, but then we wouldn't really be loving Him we would just be doing what we were programmed to do. You said it's not the same as free will but I think it is. If you have free will to do right you are free to do wrong, other wises it would not be free will.
3. I know, I guess most Christians are so committed to what they believe that if you don't believe what they believe, they think it's of the devil, but that doesn't make them right and it doesn't make Christianity wrong. People are people Christianity is a relationship between you and God.
4. You can do that too and He will give them to you.
5. Don't think about it too much, it'll drive you crazy If we came from monkeys, what was before that, how did the monkeys get here? If the big bang happened, what caused the big bang? You just have to accept that God has always been.
 
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Dust and Ashes

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anunbeliever said:
God created man knowing 100% of them would sin. Therefore its a design flaw. If God is omnipotent, then he has the power to make people who dont sin.
It's not a design flaw. If we didn't have free will, our service to and love of God would be meaningless. Kind of like my marriage. My wife loves me and she chooses to stay with me knowing that she could leave if she wanted. That means a lot to me. Our relationship would not even be a shadow of what we have if she only stayed because she had to.

Of course He could make people who don't sin. He would just have to make them without free will so they couldn't make their own choices. That way none of them could choose to sin. Of course none of them could choose to love God or each other either.
 
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It is true that when you are saved Jesus never leaves you nor forsakes you, but if you forsake Him then you have backslid and need to re-committ your life to the Lord. That is the only way you can get into heaven. I'm not sure why you aren't sure heaven exists if you were once a born-again Christian.

My suggestion is if you are concerned about where you will spend eternity if you died a non-believer, then you need to have a little talk with Jesus. He is there waiting for you to come back.

My prayers are with you.
 
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Reformationist

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All4one said:
Reformationist I am not personalizing these things. When I say once saved always saved is a farce I am not pointing at you but the thought and belief in general.
Which is the only thing I was doing in my post, with regard to your views. What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

I will no longer argue this matter for it is settled.
I am not sure why you ever felt the need to argue.

All you are doing here is causing strife and not applying your beliefs.
A certain verse comes to mind...oh yeah...that's it...Matthew 7:3-5.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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God never loses any of His children. If a man truly and fully falls then he was never saved to begin with.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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anunbeliever said:
The bible is full of instances where God acted against a persons free will. Eg Saul becomes Paul. Noone has free will anyway since all men are "slaves to sin".
It's ironic to me that an agnostic person can see this truth but so many Christians don't.

God created man knowing 100% of them would sin. Therefore its a design flaw. If God is omnipotent, then he has the power to make people who dont sin.
Of course He has that power. It wasn't His plan though. You start with the false premise that our falling from grace was outside of the plan of God. God had always intended that we fall. He is glorified in our redemption. If we never fell we'd only know Him as the Lord. Now that we have fallen we can know Him as Lord and Savior. The truth is that we have a greater understanding of God because of our failures.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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anunbeliever said:
If you say that anyone who turns away was never genuinely save, then How then does anyone know for sure? You have taken away "assurance".
On the contrary, I've shown how assurance is established. We can only know the assurance of our own salvation by acknowledging that if we are His child He will preserve us from fully and finally falling away. Any Christian who has fallen into sin and then been rescued anew by the Lord has grown in faith. It is these trials through which God matures our faith. Only when we struggle can we say with David, "The LORD, who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine." It is due to the Lord's continual deliverance that we know that we are His.

God bless
 
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