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Once saved always saved

redleghunter

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You steadfastly refuse to explain how IF in v.13 applies to the unbeliever which totally undermines your belief. Shall I keep waiting...zzzzz.
Sir, I've pointed out several times how all the if questions Paul presents contrasts those who have the Spirit or don't.

But what does he definitively say to the Roman audience?

Romans 8: NASB
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Notice verse 14 is a general statement. Verse 15 is specific to the audience.

We either belong to Christ or we don't. This is what the text makes clear by the if statements. There is nothing in the text which says or indicates "you who are in the Spirit better watch out or you can lose the Spirit." Which is what you want to impose on the text without warrant.
 
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Oldmantook

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Despite my persistence, you have evaded my specific question. How can the IF in v.13 apply to the unbeliever?? You cite the surrounding verses but do not explain verse 13 itself. zzzzzz
 
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bcbsr

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There are no false dichotomies with God.
But there is with Calvinism. Unless you think Calvin or Augustine are God. Is that what you think?
There is righteousness and unrighteousness there is good and evil. There is the material and immaterial.
So which are you? Righteous or unrighteous? Material or immaterial?
Well entertain this:

Synergism is not even Semi-Pelagians, let alone Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagians believe that original sin, though real, does not impair human ability to believe. Therefore, we take the “first step” toward God when we believe. God then responds to our faith by giving us the grace that completes our conversion. That's not synergism.

Synergism is a category distinct form Pelagian and Semi-Pelagianism. (Option C) It's not God responding to us, but rather us responding to God. That is the only option consistent with the rhetoric the scriptures use with regards to the gospel call. And I have shown previously that Calvinists don't actually apply their theory of Calvinism when it comes to preaching the gospel. Doesn't that tell you something?

Furthermore Calvinists reject the distinction between faith and works, whereas the scriptures classify faith as not a work.

"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" Rom 4:5

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
 
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Mark Quayle

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If I understand your view correctly, you believe a genuinely saved person cannot fall away/lose salvation. That is why I countered with Rom 8:13. If I misunderstood your view or if you think Rom 8:13 does not contradict your view, then please explain
Very well. Rom 8:13 reads as follows: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Or in another version, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Since I don't see anything I said to disagree with that, I will have to assume you think the verse means that a genuinely saved person who lives according to the flesh will lose the eternal destination God had ordained for them (and/or ordained them for). Ignoring the logical discrepancy there, the verse in context is talking to those who have taken on Christianity (in any 'church' there are saved and unsaved) in name, but he is talking of two different things. Those pursuing Christ, (the saved), will be putting to death the deeds of the flesh, but those pursuing Christianity, (who are not saved), will be unable to put to death the deeds of the flesh; regardless of the outward appearance of their deeds, they are misdeeds, (perhaps because of the intent of their mind and heart --to attain worthiness or status with God, or perhaps for other reasons also).

Romans (and all scripture, as it turns out) has much to say about the two different categories. When speaking to a church, Paul and the others speak as to one category --the genuinely saved --and warn against being of the other category. As it turns out, those who are genuinely saved will indeed heed and follow the instructions, whether out of fear, love or gratitude, or simply because their genuinely changed heart, regenerated, can't put up with continuing in sin.

You apparently see cause there; I see result. The Bible is full of references to the fact that all good, no matter how the creature is consumed in doing it, is done by God. God is the author and finisher of our faith. We are not. Saving faith is not by works.


There is also another take on the passage and on some of the other similar passages in the Bible, that there is a circumstance where one who does some things and continues in them (building trash on a good foundation) will "...be saved, yet so as though by fire." as 1 Corinthians 3:15 puts it. "There is a sin unto death." is believed by some to be referring to deeds of the body of a truly regenerated believer that naturally lead to physical (not spiritual) death, and even by the regenerated might not be stopped before completing their destination.

There are other takes also, but that is enough to show that what I said does not conflict with Romans 8:13. But to say that a person who has been regenerated by God himself having begun a good work within, might lose his salvation, being more able than God to determine his own destiny, and denying God the right to complete what God has begun, is simple blasphemy in my book. It is you who deny one, and therefore all Scripture, I think, if you believe such a thing.
 
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salt-n-light

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Gotta give an explanation of why you’re showing this text. Not even jesus quoted a text without explanation.
 
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redleghunter

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Despite my persistence, you have evaded my specific question. How can the IF in v.13 apply to the unbeliever?? You cite the surrounding verses but do not explain verse 13 itself. zzzzzz
Despite your persistence of wanting verse 13 to be the defining verses for all others in the chapter, you have failed to show by the context why it would apply to a believer.
 
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salt-n-light

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Paul's not clear?

No I’m saying you are not clear.

I know what Paul stating to that particular church, I’m asking you what is your intended usage for it in response to my post.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes your scenario is in tension with Romans 8.
 
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Oldmantook

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Your knowledge of both the English and Greek text is telling. First the Greek. Rom 8:13 in the Greek is what is known as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the
verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis is “(then) you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Greek.

Moreover, even the English cannot support what you believe. Explain to me how can the IF clause in "If you live according to the flesh, you will die - can even apply to unbelievers? Unbelievers can ONLY SIN, therefore it is not a matter of IF. They have no choice but to sin as they are unregenerated. If Paul were referring to unbelievers in this conditional clause he who have instead chosen the word SINCE. Only genuine believers have the CHOICE IF they will choose to live according to the flesh, or live according to the Spirit.

Therefore, no matter how you slice it, neither the Greek nor English text supports your belief. I suggest you reexamine/rethink your doctrine.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Off the misuse of language you hope to destroy my doctrine. Let's say your entire analysis, sans the conclusion, is well done. Thus, in Greek and English as you say, the "if" assumes the condition of "living according to the flesh" and thus "you will die". So far so good, and I agree with you. In fact, I would go a step further and say it is necessarily so, and not just rhetorical for the sake of argument. If you live according to the flesh, you will die. Did I say otherwise? Did your exhaustive understanding of the Greek defeat mine? I agree with what you say. What I disagree with is your use, or application of Paul's statement. What we assume to be "brother" may well not be, but as one claims it, one must be told the difference between how a believer behaves and how an attender behaves, lest they confuse themselves (and for other reasons).

You ask how "If you live according to the flesh, you will die - can even apply to unbelievers?" I ask, how can it not? The redeemed will not continue in sin.

Paul does NOT say here, nor does he even imply, by the use of "if", that it is possible for the regenerate to live according to the flesh. He is saying that the regenerate will NOT live according to the flesh. "If" may well be used as "since" in both Greek and English, by the way, both being conditional rhetoric and usable in propositional logic. "If" we love him, we will keep his commandments.

You would destroy a whole Bible's worth of doctrine over one misused verse? God will not fail to accomplish everything he sets out to do.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The Bible teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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mark kennedy

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The Bible teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD,

That is all you said, a wall of quotes is nothing more then a wall of quotes.
 
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mark kennedy

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I don't know what to tell you about those links but your not going to get systematic theology out of that mess. As far as Once Saved Always Saved OSAS, there is no such doctrine. Eternal security in Calvinism is synonymous with eternal life:

Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:37-39)
Those who come to him he will never drive away. There is no special exception if they commit some sin that is of an order of magnitude that it requires they have their salvation revoked.
 
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Oldmantook

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You have conveniently neglected to explain how the If clause in v.13 can ever apply to an unbeliever. Will your explanation be forthcoming? Therefore "If" in v13 can only apply to the regenerate believer. IF denotes possibility and choice. A believer can choose IF to live according to the flesh or IF to live according to the Spirit. An unbeliever has no such choice. For you to deny that is to deny the obvious.
 
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Radagast

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Is once saved always saved biblical?

I'm a Calvinist myself, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the wording of "once saved always saved."

Once truly saved always truly saved, yes.

Once answered an altar call always truly saved, not necessarily.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm a Calvinist myself, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the wording of "once saved always saved."

Once truly saved always truly saved, yes.

Once answered an altar call always truly saved, not necessarily.
Exactly, OSAS isn't eternal security, that much is obvious.
 
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Blade

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This is not like.. so lets debate. How many ways to the Father? Easy.. "I am the way the truth and the life...no man comes to the Father but by me"..end.

But salvation.. some have to ADD to what is written. Its like.. cant tell you how many times I heard "spit you out of my mouth" means lost. Yet I cant find that written. And .. He said I "WILL".. has not happen yet. Or book of life.. even Moshe(moses) talked about "then take my name out of your book".. what about the LAMBS book? There are many books.

And really? We live in a sinful word.. we live in the flesh.. trying to look at understand something that is supernatural.. where God is a Spirit..where we that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth. Where we must walk in the spirit so we dont fulfill the lust of the flesh. <---that alone most dont understand. And you think you understand "salvation"?

For me.. "fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." <---that is HIS Spirit..how He moves. I look for fear.. worry doubt ..things like this..what is being talked about here. SHINES in some doubt..fear.

We ALL have to take this by faith. No matter what you personally believe.. there has will come a time when again.. that doubt wonder will pop up.. when you do not know..when all you see is sin..you will have to repent and take what He told you ..by faith. He saved you from your sins..

Its easy for me to see.. I sit here and think.. about SIN.. do I really want to sin? BLOOD OF JESUS NO! Not because I was told not to.. infact. He never tells me not to.. I never feel guilty or condemned by Him. There is just something in me that does NOT want to.. yet.. there is something else in me that wants to.. I fight this battle every day.. die daily. I am in right standing with my Father.. because I believe in Christ....I never ever wonder.. gee always saved or oops sin lost it.. HE NEVER EVER asks this or gives me this thought.. it has doubt worry fear in it.. those are of the Father.

After all is said and done.. you WILL have take this by faith.. you were never promised tomorrow.
 
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redleghunter

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But there is with Calvinism. Unless you think Calvin or Augustine are God. Is that what you think?

Please point it out. I have not quoted to you any works of Calvin nor Augustine.

So which are you? Righteous or unrighteous? Material or immaterial?
Are you truly arguing there is no distinction?

In fact when we address the inner man and outer man that is called a dichotomist view. It's not false it's what it is.

Some even have a trichotomist view of body, soul and spirit.

Several have already corrected your misunderstanding.

We do respond to God. However, He provides us the new heart and the ears to hear. Both Reformed and even Wesleyan believe this. The Wesleyan calls it Prevenient Grace.

I'm sure you don't believe everyone who hears the Gospel responds. What exactly makes the ones who do respond different from the ones who don't?

And what is not understood about the doctrines of Grace? They address God's Sovereign design and how man becomes saved through Christ and in Christ.

Furthermore Calvinists reject the distinction between faith and works, whereas the scriptures classify faith as not a work.
I don't even know where you get this. You will have to cite a source.
 
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