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WithLoveFromAlyssa

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This was something I was taught when I first became a christian.
I had heard something along the lines of.."If you accept Jesus as your savior and pray this prayer...you go to heaven..no matter what" or something along the lines of that.

I know many christians think this way.

I have come across a verse while watching a youtube video called "The truth about staying saved"

The verse is from the apostle peter writing about early christians who have gone astray. It says...

(2 Peter 2 :20-21)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

they are again entangled in them and overcome,

the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,

having known it,
to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"





That verse seems like its implying that if after you receive knowledge and go on doing your own thing...you will face consequences. It doesn't reflect the whole.." say a prayer one time and no matter what you're saved" type of teaching.

We must strive daily as to not fall back in our old habits.

we must not be like a dog returning to its vomit. (2 peter 2:22)

comments?
 
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Ignatius21

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This was something I was taught when I first became a christian.
I had heard something along the lines of.."If you accept Jesus as your savior and pray this prayer...you go to heaven..no matter what" or something along the lines of that.

I know many christians think this way.

I have come across a verse while watching a youtube video called "The truth about staying saved"

The verse is from the apostle peter writing about early christians who have gone astray. It says...

(2 Peter 2 :20-21)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

they are again entangled in them and overcome,

the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,

having known it,
to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"





That verse seems like its implying that if after you receive knowledge and go on doing your own thing...you will face consequences. It doesn't reflect the whole.." say a prayer one time and no matter what you're saved" type of teaching.

We must strive daily as to not fall back in our old habits.

we must not be like a dog returning to its vomit. (2 peter 2:22)

I haven't seen the video so I can't comment, but OSAS is a doctrine of relatively recent historical origin, and one I would certainly agree is untenable from Scripture.

As for your post...is there a question in there somewhere? ;)
 
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sdowney717

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If such a one were of God, then they would remain faithful, not departing the faith. I suppose such a one can repent of their unbelief IF God grants them repentance.

Apostle John tells us about these people who depart the faith.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

v19, those who depart the faith follow teachings of devils. Notice though John testifies they were 'not of us'. That is they were not of God, not elect, not chosen, not predestined, so they will not be justified and glorified.

They leave because they are of Satan, not of God, not born again believers.
 
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sdowney717

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2 Tim 2
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

It is possible for people to come to repentance, If God grants that they will, then they will.
 
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WithLoveFromAlyssa

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I haven't seen the video so I can't comment, but OSAS is a doctrine of relatively recent historical origin, and one I would certainly agree is untenable from Scripture.

As for your post...is there a question in there somewhere? ;)

I just added one.. thank you for pointing that out to me :)
Yes, It was what I have been taught..but i was wondering if it was correct..
I cant imagine Someone getting saved and then everyday thereafter having premarital sex or gossiping, lying..etc..and ignoring God
and expect to end up in heaven.
 
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South Bound

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I haven't seen the video so I can't comment, but OSAS is a doctrine of relatively recent historical origin, and one I would certainly agree is untenable from Scripture.

What you fail to recognize is that salvation was not ours to choose, was not ours to earn, is not ours to keep, and is not ours to lose. Our salvation belongs to God. It was His choosing, His work, and for His glory.

It is God who chose us before the foundations of the world, who called us, who regenerated us, who saved us, who indwells us, who sealed us, and who keeps us.

If God chose us, we cannot unchoose ourselves. If God saved us, we cannot unsave ourselves. If God regenerated us, we cannot unregenerate ourselves. If God indwells us, we cannot unindwell ourselves. If God sealed us, we cannot unseal ourselves. If God keeps us, then we cannot unkeep ourselves.

The second thing you fail to understand is that, if our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration. Where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the foremost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up the new nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Think about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose (or choose to give up) our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

And what of Romans 8:29-30, which says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

How about Jude 24, which says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

What do you make of Colosians 3:1-4, which promises that if we have been save, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

How do you explain 1 Peter 1:23, which tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?
 
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Ignatius21

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What you fail to recognize is that salvation was not ours to choose, was not ours to earn, is not ours to keep, and is not ours to lose. Our salvation belongs to God. It was His choosing, His work, and for His glory.

It is God who chose us before the foundations of the world, who called us, who regenerated us, who saved us, who indwells us, who sealed us, and who keeps us.

If God chose us, we cannot unchoose ourselves. If God saved us, we cannot unsave ourselves. If God regenerated us, we cannot unregenerate ourselves. If God indwells us, we cannot unindwell ourselves. If God sealed us, we cannot unseal ourselves. If God keeps us, then we cannot unkeep ourselves.

The second thing you fail to understand is that, if our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration. Where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the foremost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up the new nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Think about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose (or choose to give up) our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

And what of Romans 8:29-30, which says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

How about Jude 24, which says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

What do you make of Colosians 3:1-4, which promises that if we have been save, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

How do you explain 1 Peter 1:23, which tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

I appreciate your shotgun blast of Scripture verses. First I'll ask (sincerely and respectfully, I'm not being snarky) whether you actually want to engage in discussion or whether you're just making statements in the form of questions. I ask because ti's very hard to tell on forums, and I've spent a lot of time answering these before, only to go essentially ignored.

You say I fail to recognize certain things. I believe (respectfully, again) that you fail to see the larger picture, namely, how the natures of Christ and his very person relate to our salvation. You're working from within a famework that makes certain assumptions, and it is those assumptions that always go unchallenged in these discussions. The irony is that usually, both sides in these discussions about "can you lose your salvation" are almost always protestant, and therefore share the same presuppositions even while disagreeing with one another on the particulars.

I do not share those same assumptions.

I can try to elaborate later, if you are interested. Right now I have to herd three small children into their shirts and shoes, so we can head for worship where we will smell incense and make the sign of the cross before icons. That in itself is usually enough to make most people dismiss me as somewhere between a lunatic and a heretic. :thumbsup:
 
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Ignatius21

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I just added one.. thank you for pointing that out to me :)
Yes, It was what I have been taught..but i was wondering if it was correct..
I cant imagine Someone getting saved and then everyday thereafter having premarital sex or gossiping, lying..etc..and ignoring God
and expect to end up in heaven.

Please read this brief discussion that is happenign right now: http://www.christianforums.com/t7812609/

I find it interesting that the OP does not believe that one can lose his faith...I do believe one can lose his faith...yet we agree that the warnings in Scripture are given to all of us who believe and are to be taken very seriously.

The takeaway from that discussion, I believe, is that one's doctrine of whether you can or can't walk away from Christ, makes little practical difference in how you live. You still must turn from sin, still must repent always, and still must take heed, lest you fall away into sin and darkness...return to your own vomit, as you've quoted.

If someone says "That guy fell away!" one will say, "He's lost his faith!" Another will say "No, he never really had it!"

Who cares? The guy is still lost. I cannot say that I am not at risk of joining him if I fail to guard my heart against sin and the lusts of this sinful, fallen creation. The battle is not over until the last trumpet sounds.
 
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South Bound

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Ignatius21 said:
I've spent a lot of time answering these before, only to go essentially ignored.

So, you made a post in which you tell me I don't understand, but never explain what I've said that is wrong or, God forbid, what you believe the correct understanding to be, you refuse to address the substance of my post, but then you complain about being ignored?

You say I fail to recognize certain things. I believe (respectfully, again) that you fail to see the larger picture, namely, how the natures of Christ and his very person relate to our salvation.

How so?

You're working from within a famework that makes certain assumptions, and it is those assumptions that always go unchallenged in these discussions.

OK. Tell me why my assumption that the Bible is true, that the new nature is not like the old nature, that God initiates and maintains salvation, not man, and that Christ both keeps that which the Father has given Him and is able to keep us from falling, is not true.

I can try to elaborate later, if you are interested. Right now I have to herd three small children into their shirts and shoes, so we can head for worship where we will smell incense and make the sign of the cross before icons. That in itself is usually enough to make most people dismiss me as somewhere between a lunatic and a heretic.

Well, the Reformation did happen for a reason. I don't consider you either a lunatic nor a heretic, just deceived.

Incidentally, I like the way you tell me you don't have time to respond to my post, but then, immediately after, respond to somebody else's. Was it the Bible verses that scared you off?

Ignatius21 said:
I find it interesting that the OP does not believe that one can lose his faith...I do believe one can lose his faith...yet we agree that the warnings in Scripture are given to all of us who believe and are to be taken very seriously.

I find it interesting that you say there are "warnings in scripture", but can't tell us what they are. This is a pretty serious thing. If true, then shouldn't you at least take a minute to warn about it by telling us what those Bible verses say?

If someone says "That guy fell away!" one will say, "He's lost his faith!" Another will say "No, he never really had it!"

Correct. That's what the Bible says.

Who cares? The guy is still lost. I cannot say that I am not at risk of joining him if I fail to guard my heart against sin and the lusts of this sinful, fallen creation.

Sounds like a terrible burden. You must feel like Sisyphus. That's why I'm glad I have a Savior.
 
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Ignatius21

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South Bound said:
So, you made a post in which you tell me I don't understand, but never explain what I've said that is wrong or, God forbid, what you believe the correct understanding to be, you refuse to address the substance of my post, but then you complain about being ignored? How so? OK. Tell me why my assumption that the Bible is true, that the new nature is not like the old nature, that God initiates and maintains salvation, not man, and that Christ both keeps that which the Father has given Him and is able to keep us from falling, is not true. Well, the Reformation did happen for a reason. I don't consider you either a lunatic nor a heretic, just deceived. Incidentally, I like the way you tell me you don't have time to respond to my post, but then, immediately after, respond to somebody else's. Was it the Bible verses that scared you off? I find it interesting that you say there are "warnings in scripture", but can't tell us what they are. This is a pretty serious thing. If true, then shouldn't you at least take a minute to warn about it by telling us what those Bible verses say? Correct. That's what the Bible says. Sounds like a terrible burden. You must feel like Sisyphus. That's why I'm glad I have a Savior.

You'll notice in didn't respond in detail to the other post.

But I can already see you're coming at this from an antagonistic angle.

The reformation had nothing to do with Orthodoxy by the way.
 
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South Bound

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I haven't seen the video so I can't comment, but OSAS is a doctrine of relatively recent historical origin, and one I would certainly agree is untenable from Scripture.

What you fail to recognize is that salvation was not ours to choose, was not ours to earn, is not ours to keep, and is not ours to lose. Our salvation belongs to God. It was His choosing, His work, and for His glory.

It is God who chose us before the foundations of the world, who called us, who regenerated us, who saved us, who indwells us, who sealed us, and who keeps us.

If God chose us, we cannot unchoose ourselves. If God saved us, we cannot unsave ourselves. If God regenerated us, we cannot unregenerate ourselves. If God indwells us, we cannot unindwell ourselves. If God sealed us, we cannot unseal ourselves. If God keeps us, then we cannot unkeep ourselves.

The second thing you fail to understand is that, if our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration. Where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the foremost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up the new nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Think about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose (or choose to give up) our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

And what of Romans 8:29-30, which says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

How about Jude 24, which says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

What do you make of Colosians 3:1-4, which promises that if we have been save, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

How do you explain 1 Peter 1:23, which tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?
 
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mickey30981

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If such a one were of God, then they would remain faithful, not departing the faith. I suppose such a one can repent of their unbelief IF God grants them repentance.

Apostle John tells us about these people who depart the faith.
1 John 2


v19, those who depart the faith follow teachings of devils. Notice though John testifies they were 'not of us'. That is they were not of God, not elect, not chosen, not predestined, so they will not be justified and glorified.

They leave because they are of Satan, not of God, not born again believers.

But that is one passage about that situation. It does NOT say that others who were of God could NOT fall away as the OP has shown.
 
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mickey30981

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Well, the question is not whether you can lose your faith or whether you can lose your salvation, the question is whether Jesus Christ can lose you...and scripture is very clear that He will lose none who are His.

Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages , including from Paul, that support that. Yes , faith saves and Christ will never lose us. But , the bible is clear that we will have eternal life only IF we abide in Him. That means remain faithful. That does not mean we have to do so many good works! It simply means when if do walk away from God we have show evidence of our rejection. Minor occasions of periods of sinfulnes, is not what I am talking about, but rather a complete lifestyle of sin that rejects Gods commandments habitually and without concern or care or even worse, with intentionality. That person has, by evidence of his actions, rejected his faith to submit to God. Salvation is NOT by knowing Christ is Lord and Savior. The demons know that. The bible tells us that. Salvation is by Living Christ as Lord and Savior, faith that is faithfulness. The grace of that faithfulness is the only power that enables us to live according to His will.
 
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AndOne

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Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages , including from Paul, that support that. Yes , faith saves and Christ will never lose us. But , the bible is clear that we will have eternal life only IF we abide in Him. That means remain faithful. That does not mean we have to do so many good works! It simply means when if do walk away from God we have show evidence of our rejection. Minor occasions of periods of sinfulnes, is not what I am talking about, but rather a complete lifestyle of sin that rejects Gods commandments habitually and without concern or care or even worse, with intentionality. That person has, by evidence of his actions, rejected his faith to submit to God. Salvation is NOT by knowing Christ is Lord and Savior. The demons know that. The bible tells us that. Salvation is by Living Christ as Lord and Savior, faith that is faithfulness. The grace of that faithfulness is the only power that enables us to live according to His will.

Sorry - but the person you are talking about was never saved to begin with. 1 John 2:19
 
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Steeno7

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Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages , including from Paul, that support that. Yes , faith saves and Christ will never lose us. But , the bible is clear that we will have eternal life only IF we abide in Him. That means remain faithful. That does not mean we have to do so many good works! It simply means when if do walk away from God we have show evidence of our rejection. Minor occasions of periods of sinfulnes, is not what I am talking about, but rather a complete lifestyle of sin that rejects Gods commandments habitually and without concern or care or even worse, with intentionality. That person has, by evidence of his actions, rejected his faith to submit to God. Salvation is NOT by knowing Christ is Lord and Savior. The demons know that. The bible tells us that. Salvation is by Living Christ as Lord and Savior, faith that is faithfulness. The grace of that faithfulness is the only power that enables us to live according to His will.


He will lose none who are His. Those who are in Christ are secure in Him and His faithfulness, not in ourselves or our faithfulness.
 
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mickey30981

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Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages , including from Paul, that support that. Yes , faith saves and Christ will never lose us. But , the bible is clear that we will have eternal life only IF we abide in Him. That means remain faithful. That does not mean we have to do so many good works! It simply means when if do walk away from God we have show evidence of our rejection. Minor occasions of periods of sinfulnes, is not what I am talking about, but rather a complete lifestyle of sin that rejects Gods commandments habitually and without concern or care or even worse, with intentionality. That person has, by evidence of his actions, rejected his faith to submit to God. Salvation is NOT by knowing Christ is Lord and Savior. The demons know that. The bible tells us that. Salvation is by Living Christ as Lord and Savior, faith that is faithfulness. The grace from that faithfulness is the only power that enables us to live according to His will.
 
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South Bound

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Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And to the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages, including from Paul, that support that.

Am I the only one who's bovine skubalon detector goes off whenever somebody insists that there are "dozens of passages", but doesn't bother to cite any or tell us what those verses are?

Christ will never leave us. That is not the issue. The issue is whether we can freely choose to leave Him. And to the OP has shown support for that, as well there being dozens of other passages, including from Paul, that support that.

What you're failing to take into account is that salvation was not ours to choose, was not ours to earn, is not ours to keep, and is not ours to lose. Our salvation belongs to God. It was His choosing, His work, and for His glory.

It is God who chose us before the foundations of the world, who called us, who regenerated us, who saved us, who indwells us, who sealed us, and who keeps us.

If God chose us, we cannot unchoose ourselves. If God saved us, we cannot unsave ourselves. If God regenerated us, we cannot unregenerate ourselves. If God indwells us, we cannot unindwell ourselves. If God sealed us, we cannot unseal ourselves. If God keeps us, then we cannot unkeep ourselves.

The second thing you're not taking into account is, if our carnal nature has been crucified with Christ and is dead and we have received a new nature upon regeneration. Where does the Bible ever say that we can give up the new nature we received upon regeneration? And why would a person who had received this new nature want to give it up? Isn't the foremost characteristic of the new nature that it is spiritual and not carnal?

And, for that matter, what replaces the new nature if one can give it up, since the old nature is dead? Do you get a new old nature? And, if so, how?

How does one give up the new nature? Is it like an Islamic divorce, where you just announce, "I divorce you" three times? Is there a document to sign or a ritual to perform?

Think about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose (or choose to give up) our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

And what of Romans 8:29-30, which says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

How about Jude 24, which says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

What do you make of Colosians 3:1-4, which promises that if we have been save, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philipians 1:6 promises us that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise if you believe you can lose your salvation?

How do you explain 1 Peter 1:23, which tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptable seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptable and that promise is not true.

Like Colosians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation".

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

Salvation is by Living Christ as Lord and Savior

If salvation is by how we live, then that's a works based salvation and a works based salvation cannot save.

The grace of that faithfulness is the only power that enables us to live according to His will.

Out of curiosity, do you agree with this verse:

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
 
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extraordinary

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(2 Peter 2 :20-21)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world
through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and overcome,
the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"
Thanks, I will add this to my list of RIGHTEOUSNESS verses,
which say our imputed righteousness must be maintained to ensure eternal life.
Thanks again!
.
 
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South Bound

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Thanks, I will add this to my list of RIGHTEOUSNESS verses,
which say our imputed righteousness must be maintained to ensure eternal life.
Thanks again!
.

How does one "maintain" imputed righteousness, when it's not your righteousness in the first place?
 
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