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Once saved; always saved?

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hal

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I view this text as proof that "once saved; always saved" is wishful thinking.
Comments?

2 Perer2:15
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
 
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peteey

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This is just my opinion, but when they say they left the straight way, does not mean necessarly they lost their salvation....it is so easy to lose the straight way everyday by making the right choices. The prodiagal son lost the straight way, but then he did come back to his father. Are there any incidents in the Bible where people stray, and don't have enough time to turn back?
 
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Force

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peteey said:
This is just my opinion, but when they say they left the straight way, does not mean necessarly they lost their salvation....it is so easy to lose the straight way everyday by making the right choices. The prodiagal son lost the straight way, but then he did come back to his father. Are there any incidents in the Bible where people stray, and don't have enough time to turn back?
What about Judas for one? Who knows....
 
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Ben_Hur

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hal said:
I view this text as proof that "once saved; always saved" is wishful thinking.
Comments?

2 Perer2:15
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

Who is "they?" It doesn't look like he is talking about Christians....
 
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RevKidd

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I will chime in.
This is the parable of the sower and verses 20-21 IMO is a prime example of those who stumble or in some translations, "fall away"





20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
First let's consider this verse. Jesus is explaining the parable and he goes on to say that their will be those who will hear the word and immediately receive it with joy. We have to ask ourselves first, what meaning can we subscribe to the word "Receives". Greek states this...


1. to take
a. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1. to take up a thing to be carried
2. to take upon one's self
b. to take in order to carry away
1. without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c. to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1. to claim, procure, for one's self 1c
d. to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
1. of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of apprehend
2. to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
3. to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
4. catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
5. to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
e. to take
1. to admit, receive
2. to receive what is offered
3. not to refuse or reject
4. to receive a person, give him access to one's self, 1d
2. to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
1. to take, to choose, select
2. to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
3. to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back


From this definition we should clearly see that he that "receives" the word receives it as something that he comprehends, takes hold of as to use it, making it his own, won't let go, not to refuse or reject. Christ then states he receives it with JOY. This person get's excited about the word.

So let's ask ourselves. Is this person at this time, "saved"? Has he received grace?

Absolutely. He hears the "word", and then immediately receives it with joy. So not only does he understand, grasps, and accepts this word he hears, he also is excited about this word he just receieved. Let me give you an example. Let's say that I tell my daughter that we are going to disney world. I have just given her a word. She hears what I say and get's excited over it. Why? Because she believes her daddy won't lie to hear and so she is overwhelmed with joy and anticipation. If she didn't believe me, would she get excited, or happy with joy? I doubt it.



21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Here's the unfortunate part of the parable. Christ says that this man has no root in himself. Basically meaning that that he is not grounded. Picture this man standing tall like a huge tree, with no roots. Now here is the most important part of this section of scripture. Chrst says that "For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word" he does what, STUMBLES, and in some interpretations it says "falls away" because of the WORD that he received.

Basically we have someone here who hears the word, accepts this word, is all excited because of this word, goes out into the world, then get's persecuted for what he has received and believed, can't handle the persecution because he doesn't know how to defend and rightly divide the word. So he falls away and stumbles off the path that he once received with joy.
 
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BarbB

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Leviathan said:
From this definition we should clearly see that he that "receives" the word receives it as something that he comprehends, takes hold of as to use it, making it his own, won't let go, not to refuse or reject. Christ then states he receives it with JOY. This person get's excited about the word.

So let's ask ourselves. Is this person at this time, "saved"? Has he received grace?

Absolutely. He hears the "word", and then immediately receives it with joy. So not only does he understand, grasps, and accepts this word he hears, he also is excited about this word he just receieved. Here's the unfortunate part of the parable. Christ says that this man has no root in himself. Basically meaning that that he is not grounded. Picture this man standing tall like a huge tree, with no roots. Now here is the most important part of this section of scripture. Chrst says that "For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word" he does what, STUMBLES, and in some interpretations it says "falls away" because of the WORD that he received.

Basically we have someone here who hears the word, accepts this word, is all excited because of this word, goes out into the world, then get's persecuted for what he has received and believed, can't handle the persecution because he doesn't know how to defend and rightly divide the word. So he falls away and stumbles off the path that he once received with joy.


Does the grounding come with education by the Holy Spirit, reading the Bible, studying, listening. Is it part of the maturation of the Christian, himself, or is it assumed from the beginning that it was a shallow planting and WILL fall away.

I can't imagine ever being without Jesus in my life again. I would rather die. Can it be that I would fall away? :help:
 
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hal

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I believe being born-again does not negate the operation of our freewill.
If we are concerned about it, we are probably not trusting God to give us the strength to remain true through trials and tempatations. Even martyrdom if necessary. Scripture has many warnings about it.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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hal said:
How is Hebrews 6:1-8 to be understood?
Hi Hal.
I think this has been covered in separate threads, but it is good for a review.
Heb 6:1-6 has to be interpreted and understood in the context in which it was written.

The context of the passage which actually begins in chapter 5 verse 12 is not salvation. It is doctrine. He is talking about viable doctrine, babyhood "foundational" doctrine, and the possibility of going on to a mature "perfect" doctrine.

Eventually, as he gets to verses 3-8 of chapter 6, he is showing how unworkable the Jewish Christian's doctrine is going to be if they attempt to alter the foundational teaching about repentance from dead works. The Jewish Christians were wanting to take the priesthood that was instituted in the NT and merge it with the priesthood of Aaron that existed in the OT. Doing so would totally mess up the NT concept of Jesus being a sacrifice who died once and for all. The OT sacrifice was offered yearly, so if the OT and NT understanding of the sacrifice for sins were merged, then we would be sacrificing Jesus again and again, something that cannot be done.

Look at the verses in question:

Hebrews 6:1-3 GW
1 With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.
2 We shouldn't repeat the basic teachings about such things as baptisms, setting people apart for holy tasks, dead people coming back to life, and eternal judgment.
3 If God permits, we will do this.


Notice that nowhere is he talking about salvation. He is talking about going on to a mature and complete doctrinal understanding. He goes on to point out that they will not be able to go on to this complete and mature doctrinal understanding if they do not first stand upon the foundational truths... one of which is "repentance from dead works." It is here that they are stumbling. Dead works are not sins... they are the OT rituals and sacrifices that did not actually wash away sins or bring anyone closer to God. Paul is pointing out that if they take the NT teaching about repentance from dead works and merge it with the OT teachings about yearly sacrificing for sins, then they will have a mongrel doctrine that requires that Jesus go to the cross again and again and again... on a yearly basis.

Hebrews 6:4-6 WNT
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once for all been enlightened, and have tasted the sweetness of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have realized how good the word of God is and how mighty are the powers of the coming Age, and then fell away--
6 it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.


Paul is showing how unworkable this hybrid doctrine would be. "It (the hybrid doctrine they are creating) is impossible" because it would require the believer to go through repentance from dead works again and again just like they had to in the OT. This hybrid doctrine would have Jesus repeatedly going to the cross every year just like the OT law required. It is the hybrid doctrine that is not viable, unworkable, and that would expose Jesus to open shame ever year as He was sacrifice again and again and again.
 
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I

Iddie4him

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We have been over this topic so many times and it gets to the point that people get defensive and then trouble really starts....The idea of OSAS is very much a reality,
Once you have been saved, The only thing that can take it away is if you turn away from him.


Mark 3:29 But, Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven; He is guilty of an eternal sin.


This says it all, Once you have accepted the gift of salvation, It'll never be taken away even if you stray from the path.
This is inherent behaviour of humans, There was only 1 perfect man , and HE DIED TO SAVE ME FROM MY SINS.
 
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Andrew

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If a Christian can lose his salvation and end up in hell, it just proves that Satan can seperate us from the love of God. Think about that. :)

1. Sinning cannot cause us to lose salvation. That's covered in Romans 5.
2. Renouncing Christ cannot happen either to a true born again Christians. No true-blue born-again Christian in his right mind wld one day decide to renounce Christ UNLESS the devil has been influencing him, pushing him to that decision. And IF the devil succeeds, and the Christian renounces Christ and ends up in hell, then the devil has succeeded in separating this Christian from the love of God. Which goes against this plain scripture:

Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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He put me back together

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Let's print out just a leeeeetle bit more of 2 Peter :)

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Does this mean that anything from this world or the next, or anything on Heaven or Earth can separate us from the love of God? Not at all. But to say that everyone sins every day--or to say that it is impossible for someone who once believed to return to his lusts and be consumed--is unbiblical. The word is plain. It speaks for itself. Do not let the horror of knowing that there are some who are lost cloud your vision of what the word of God blatantly states.
 
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blixation

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I think we could lose salvation, IF it were based upon what humanity can do, but that is not the case. The absolute, unchanging, un-swaying truth is that you cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return...

...Glory to the Lord of hosts for such awesome truths....
 
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RevKidd

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newlamb said:
Does the grounding come with education by the Holy Spirit, reading the Bible, studying, listening. Is it part of the maturation of the Christian, himself, or is it assumed from the beginning that it was a shallow planting and WILL fall away.

I can't imagine ever being without Jesus in my life again. I would rather die. Can it be that I would fall away? :help:
That's an excellent question.

Ultimately, the each person will be held accountable for themeselves. I believe it was Peter that said he would rather go through life never hearing the word than hearing it and rejecting it.

I also think that we as the body of Christ should also try and keep those that are in the body grounded. Think of it like this. Christ states that we are all in the body, each serving it's own purpose. Let's say that my right hand has an infection that could cause myself to lose my hand. Don't you think that I am going to try and get medication that will heal and strengthen my hand?Absolutely.

The same should be said for those in the body of Christ.
 
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