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once saved, always saved?
- Thread starter Dyin2live
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Hello Dyin2live
Personally I don't agree with the mindset because it gives people an excuse to not do right and take God's grace, mercy and forgiveness for granted. Unfortunately there are a lot of Christians with this mindset and they do what they want, when they want and disobey the Lord time after time, with a "whatever" attitude.
Also in Philippians 2:12-15 it talks about us having to work out our own salvation. That indicates to me that our salvation is a process that we must embrace everyday by dying to self, by obeying His Spirit and living right for the Lord. Will we make mistakes - yes, will we fail at times - yes, will we sin at times - probably, but if our heart is right towards God and we truly are repentive and are not using the excuse of "once saved always saved" to justify our actions, foul intents and motives, I believe we will be in right standing with the Lord.
Philippians 2:12-15
12Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).
13[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and [c]delight.
14Do all things without grumbling and faultfinding and complaining [against God] and questioning and doubting [among yourselves], 15That you may show yourselves to be blameless and guiltless, innocent and uncontaminated, children of God without blemish (faultless, unrebukable) in the midst of a crooked and wicked generation [spiritually perverted and perverse], among whom you are seen as bright lights (stars or beacons shining out clearly) in the [dark] world,
Hope this helps you.
God Bless!
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Elijah2
No weapons formed against me will prosper.
Yep, that is so correct.
Christians like their comfort zone, and they speak so many false words to build themselves up. The mindset is destructive.
You can lose your salvation, all you have to do is go back into your old way of thinking and habits.
If your "house is empty, swept, and put in order" (see Matthew 12:43-45), which happens to most Christians who believe false teaching, then you can lose your salvation.
It's like another false teaching that Satan can't touch you.
Christians like their comfort zone, and they speak so many false words to build themselves up. The mindset is destructive.
You can lose your salvation, all you have to do is go back into your old way of thinking and habits.
If your "house is empty, swept, and put in order" (see Matthew 12:43-45), which happens to most Christians who believe false teaching, then you can lose your salvation.
It's like another false teaching that Satan can't touch you.
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
MY DEAR BROTHER,
i believe that the "once saved, always saved" idea is a satanic delusion given that Salvation is a process, not an event. Saint Paul explains this well in his first letter to the Corinthians: "DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT THOSE WHO RUN IN A RACE ALL RUN, BUT ONLY ONE RECEIVES THE PRIZE? RUN IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU MAY WIN. EVERYONE WHO COMPETES IN THE GAMES EXERCISES SELF-CONTROL IN ALL THINGS. THEY THEN DO IT TO RECEIVE A PERISHABLE WREATH, BUT WE AN IMPERISHABLE. THEREFORE I RUN IN SUCH A WAY, AS NOT WITHOUT AIM; I BOX IN SUCH A WAY, AS NOT BEATING THE AIR; BUT I DISCIPLINE MY BODY AND MAKE IT MY SLAVE, SO THAT, AFTER I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I MYSELF WILL NOT BE DISQUALIFIED."(I Corinthians 9:24-27)
He also writes to the Philippians: "WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING."(Philippians 2:12)
As is stated in one of the replies above, it all depends on the decisions we make. We can decide to follow the Lord to the end and be saved, or we can decide at some point that perhaps the world offers a better deal and turn away from God and be lost. "Once saved, always saved" is satan's way of instilling overconfidence in Christians to the point that they cease working out their Salvation with fear and trembling and forsake the necessary self-discipline which Salvation requires, and thus fall back into the darkness through sloth and overconfidence.
MUCH LOVE IN CHRIST,
ephraim
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There is a severe problem with entertaining this discussion as a debate: It tends to cause people to reveal their sinful nature of "judging".
Last I heard, Christ God was the only One capable of making the call.
If you pay attention to a number of saints on this board, they testifiy time and time again at how they have been brought back to God, by God, by His love and mercy.
That, actually, is the testimony of the true church, to a dying and sick world - God is Love, gracious and merciful, and "Look at me, what a mess I was and kinda still am.... but how my life is proof and testimony to Him, and His GRACE and LOVE!"
There are numerous statements by God, and demonstration in abundance of His gathering His own, regardless of how far off the deep-end they seem to have gone.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Is this contingent upon our works???
and this one, too:
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, "FOR THY SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
Rom 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ok? Oh, let us not forget this one:
Luke 15:4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it?
Luke 15:5 "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luke 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
IT is all His GRACE! IT is all HIS MERCY! IT is all HIS LOVE! IT is all a testimony of GOD's NEVER-ENDING mercy!
If you attempt to draw lines (as I have done too in my past!!!), the LIFE of God is not in it. What does this tell us? Learn and understand.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Last I heard, Christ God was the only One capable of making the call.
If you pay attention to a number of saints on this board, they testifiy time and time again at how they have been brought back to God, by God, by His love and mercy.
That, actually, is the testimony of the true church, to a dying and sick world - God is Love, gracious and merciful, and "Look at me, what a mess I was and kinda still am.... but how my life is proof and testimony to Him, and His GRACE and LOVE!"
There are numerous statements by God, and demonstration in abundance of His gathering His own, regardless of how far off the deep-end they seem to have gone.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Is this contingent upon our works???
and this one, too:
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, "FOR THY SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
Rom 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ok? Oh, let us not forget this one:
Luke 15:4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it?
Luke 15:5 "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luke 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
IT is all His GRACE! IT is all HIS MERCY! IT is all HIS LOVE! IT is all a testimony of GOD's NEVER-ENDING mercy!
If you attempt to draw lines (as I have done too in my past!!!), the LIFE of God is not in it. What does this tell us? Learn and understand.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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If you have ears to hear....
One more problem with making classifications and segragating the lost from the saved (and those somewhere in between?), and this should become obvious to all, is that your whole character CANNOT hide this judgment from others.
You CANNOT prevent yourself from showing your judgmental (BAD, BAD, BAD) attitude towards those who need.... who need what????.... ANSWER: NOT Judgment attitudes from sinners who are no better than they.
By classifying people, which apparently you cannot help yourself because you still think yourself BETTER than others.... it sends a VERY STRONG signal to others how superior you act... and they run away from you.
Why? Because they have enough bad times in the world with whatever they are dealing with. They don't need anymore of your own, no matter how hard you try to hide it. It is there.
Also, if you try... (NOTE this word!)... try to show great love and mercy... (because you are so caring, right?)... your efforts are NATURAL.
Your soul efforts to show love and mercy, are worthless rags.
Only a life transformed in truth by GOD's Love to you, the worthless sinner, who is totally aware of his/her own sinful problem, will ever be able to testify of God's wonderful love... in Truth and Spirit.
One more problem with making classifications and segragating the lost from the saved (and those somewhere in between?), and this should become obvious to all, is that your whole character CANNOT hide this judgment from others.
You CANNOT prevent yourself from showing your judgmental (BAD, BAD, BAD) attitude towards those who need.... who need what????.... ANSWER: NOT Judgment attitudes from sinners who are no better than they.
By classifying people, which apparently you cannot help yourself because you still think yourself BETTER than others.... it sends a VERY STRONG signal to others how superior you act... and they run away from you.
Why? Because they have enough bad times in the world with whatever they are dealing with. They don't need anymore of your own, no matter how hard you try to hide it. It is there.
Also, if you try... (NOTE this word!)... try to show great love and mercy... (because you are so caring, right?)... your efforts are NATURAL.
Your soul efforts to show love and mercy, are worthless rags.
Only a life transformed in truth by GOD's Love to you, the worthless sinner, who is totally aware of his/her own sinful problem, will ever be able to testify of God's wonderful love... in Truth and Spirit.
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holo
former Christian
Salvation is more than getting to heaven when you die. Jesus IS my righteousness, so that's not an issue. I receive him by faith. I am free to make choices every day though, which make matters better or worse. Jesus seemed to imply that the kingdom of God is in us and around us, and I guess we can make more or less use of our citizenship there. And yes, sometimes it takes something, usually our pride.
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The merit for Salvation is sth we need to conquer little by little, every day in our lives.
The Salvation is the result of our actions in this world. And it happens only once.
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Yes. Once you're saved, you're saved.
You might be able to break your communion with Christ, but you can never break your union with Christ.
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, THE LAST STATE HAS BECOME WORSE FOR THEM THEN THE FIRST. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."(2 Peter 2:20, 21)
"Now the just shall live by faith; but IF ANY ONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."(Hebrews 10:38)
"But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD."(Luke 9:62)
"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I AM AFRAID FOR YOU, LEST I HAVE LABORED FOR YOU IN VAIN."(Galatians 4:9-11)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? IT IS THEN GOOD FOR NOTHING BUT TO BE THROWN OUT AND TRAMPLED UNDERFOOT BY MEN."(Matthew 5:13)
ETC., ETC., ETC.
WE ARE ONLY AS "SAVED" AS WE CHOOSE TO BE at any given moment, and our Lord warns us: "WATCH THEREFORE, FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE MASTER OF THE HOUSE IS COMING -- IN THE EVENING, AT MIDNIGHT, AT THE CROWING OF THE ROOSTER, OR IN THE MORNING--LEST, COMING SUDDENLY, HE FIND YOU SLEEPING. AND WHAT I SAY TO YOU, I SAY TO ALL: WATCH!"(MARK 13:35-37) He also warns what the consequence of not watching entails: "AND CAST THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS. THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."(Matthew 25:30)
IN CHRIST,
ephraim
"Now the just shall live by faith; but IF ANY ONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."(Hebrews 10:38)
"But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD."(Luke 9:62)
"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I AM AFRAID FOR YOU, LEST I HAVE LABORED FOR YOU IN VAIN."(Galatians 4:9-11)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? IT IS THEN GOOD FOR NOTHING BUT TO BE THROWN OUT AND TRAMPLED UNDERFOOT BY MEN."(Matthew 5:13)
ETC., ETC., ETC.
WE ARE ONLY AS "SAVED" AS WE CHOOSE TO BE at any given moment, and our Lord warns us: "WATCH THEREFORE, FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE MASTER OF THE HOUSE IS COMING -- IN THE EVENING, AT MIDNIGHT, AT THE CROWING OF THE ROOSTER, OR IN THE MORNING--LEST, COMING SUDDENLY, HE FIND YOU SLEEPING. AND WHAT I SAY TO YOU, I SAY TO ALL: WATCH!"(MARK 13:35-37) He also warns what the consequence of not watching entails: "AND CAST THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS. THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."(Matthew 25:30)
IN CHRIST,
ephraim
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Yes, there is a powerful truth to this, that God keeps those whom He says are justified (cf. Rom 8:28-eoc). But don't think people can't be deceived into believing a lie with such a statement. Lots of people think they're justified by saying the right thing, being with the right people, living a certain way, or calling Jesus "Lord", or saying they rely on Jesus -- without relying on Him. There's "just talk", and there's actual reliance.
None of those other things save you. Jesus Christ saves. So relying on these other things didn't get them "Once saved" in the first place.
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snoochface
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If I am understanding correctly, those who do NOT believe in "once saved always saved" believe that we may sin, and we may fail, and God's grace will cover us in those times as long as our heart is still with him? As long as we still have the desire to serve him and do his will? But if we "become complacent" and stop thinking of God, stop living as Christians, back-slide into a worldly lifestyle, then we have lost our salvation?
I'm looking for clarification and more specifics on how, and when, exactly (or as exact as you can get with examples) you feel the scripture tells us salvation is lost.
Do you believe people can be saved over and over again? Someone is saved as a teenager, backslides into a worldly or sinful lifestyle in college and loses salvation, has a coming back to Christ in their 20's and is saved again, has a mid-life crisis in their 40's and loses salvation, realizes the error of his ways in his 60's and is saved again?
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic, not trying to debate -- I really want to know if that's what you think.
I'm asking because I think the whole point of salvation is that it's a gift from God that we receive, and once we've received it, unless we make a conscious choice to give it back, it can't be lost. By conscious choice, I don't mean backsliding or falling into a sinful state again. I mean someone consciously saying, "I no longer believe and do not consider myself to be a Christian anymore." It's like someone giving you a tie for Christmas - it's your tie unless you decide you don't want it anymore and give it back to the person who gave it to you.
So if those who don't believe in "once saved always saved" could provide some clarification on your viewpoint, I'd really appreciate it.
I'm looking for clarification and more specifics on how, and when, exactly (or as exact as you can get with examples) you feel the scripture tells us salvation is lost.
Do you believe people can be saved over and over again? Someone is saved as a teenager, backslides into a worldly or sinful lifestyle in college and loses salvation, has a coming back to Christ in their 20's and is saved again, has a mid-life crisis in their 40's and loses salvation, realizes the error of his ways in his 60's and is saved again?
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic, not trying to debate -- I really want to know if that's what you think.
I'm asking because I think the whole point of salvation is that it's a gift from God that we receive, and once we've received it, unless we make a conscious choice to give it back, it can't be lost. By conscious choice, I don't mean backsliding or falling into a sinful state again. I mean someone consciously saying, "I no longer believe and do not consider myself to be a Christian anymore." It's like someone giving you a tie for Christmas - it's your tie unless you decide you don't want it anymore and give it back to the person who gave it to you.
So if those who don't believe in "once saved always saved" could provide some clarification on your viewpoint, I'd really appreciate it.
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snoochface
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So, anyone want to take a stab at this?If I am understanding correctly, those who do NOT believe in "once saved always saved" believe that we may sin, and we may fail, and God's grace will cover us in those times as long as our heart is still with him? As long as we still have the desire to serve him and do his will? But if we "become complacent" and stop thinking of God, stop living as Christians, back-slide into a worldly lifestyle, then we have lost our salvation?
I'm looking for clarification and more specifics on how, and when, exactly (or as exact as you can get with examples) you feel the scripture tells us salvation is lost.
Do you believe people can be saved over and over again? Someone is saved as a teenager, backslides into a worldly or sinful lifestyle in college and loses salvation, has a coming back to Christ in their 20's and is saved again, has a mid-life crisis in their 40's and loses salvation, realizes the error of his ways in his 60's and is saved again?
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic, not trying to debate -- I really want to know if that's what you think.
I'm asking because I think the whole point of salvation is that it's a gift from God that we receive, and once we've received it, unless we make a conscious choice to give it back, it can't be lost. By conscious choice, I don't mean backsliding or falling into a sinful state again. I mean someone consciously saying, "I no longer believe and do not consider myself to be a Christian anymore." It's like someone giving you a tie for Christmas - it's your tie unless you decide you don't want it anymore and give it back to the person who gave it to you.
So if those who don't believe in "once saved always saved" could provide some clarification on your viewpoint, I'd really appreciate it.
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romans324
Senior Veteran
I do not believe in a once saved, always saved but yet I do, let me explain. This liine can be used on both sides of the fence. For satan it gives an individual a false salvation and then enforcing that false salvation wwith this line. Where as a true believer is saved will desire to serve the Lord and have resepct for Him.
example:
Someone goes to church hears the message of salvation says hey I need insurance for my soul and says the "sinners prayer" then continues in sin and is conforted. But thier mind set is once saved always saved and they continue to sin believing Christ will save them from the sins they embrace. This is false conversion and therefore the meaning of once saved always saved is used improperly.
Now another indivuals talks to someone about they are told about the love of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and so on. Thier heart ( which is inwardly that no man sees) excepts this message. And they say "a sinner's prayer" then continue to sin. However this indivual finds it harder to sin then before salvation began. The only way they even have peace is when they confess when they sin and try to push sin away. Over time this individual will discover that even if they allow the flesh to drift away from God thier heart pulls nearer to the Lord.
Hewbrews 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
I hope this helps!
example:
Someone goes to church hears the message of salvation says hey I need insurance for my soul and says the "sinners prayer" then continues in sin and is conforted. But thier mind set is once saved always saved and they continue to sin believing Christ will save them from the sins they embrace. This is false conversion and therefore the meaning of once saved always saved is used improperly.
Now another indivuals talks to someone about they are told about the love of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and so on. Thier heart ( which is inwardly that no man sees) excepts this message. And they say "a sinner's prayer" then continue to sin. However this indivual finds it harder to sin then before salvation began. The only way they even have peace is when they confess when they sin and try to push sin away. Over time this individual will discover that even if they allow the flesh to drift away from God thier heart pulls nearer to the Lord.
Hewbrews 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
I hope this helps!
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snoochface
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Romans324, that's pretty much how I view it too, if I'm understanding you correctly. It's not a matter of losing your salvation if you are truly saved. It's more a matter of someone who is truly saved not being able to lose their salvation because the Holy Spirit remains in them and keeps tugging at their heart. Someone who "loses" their salvation, so to speak, in the sense of walking away from Christianity and consciously making the decision to turn against God, was not truly saved in the first place.
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