Once Saved, Always Saved

[colinlindsay]

This controversy really seems to get people hot under the collar on the internet.
I've just read "Pleasures of God" by John Piper. Enjoyed it, and he dealt with issues of predestination. Now it seems to me that without him so crudely expressing it he DOES believe "once saved always saved."

Why can't more calvinists be more upfront and less obscure and just use this phrase unapologetically if that's what their theology leads them to?

Otherwise I for one get frustrated by these books.
Also who are these "Friends of John Piper"? Who are they defending him from? I presume those angry people who believe we can (often quite easily) lose our salvation.

 

[mlqurgw]

This controversy really seems to get people hot under the collar on the internet.
I've just read "Pleasures of God" by John Piper. Enjoyed it, and he dealt with issues of predestination. Now it seems to me that without him so crudely expressing it he DOES believe "once saved always saved."

Why can't more calvinists be more upfront and less obscure and just use this phrase unapologetically if that's what their theology leads them to?

Otherwise I for one get frustrated by these books.
Also who are these "Friends of John Piper"? Who are they defending him from? I presume those angry people who believe we can (often quite easily) lose our salvation.

There is actually a difference between once saved always saved and what Calvinists believe as perseverence of the saints. OSAS is easy-believism in action. It is the idea that a person can make a profession of faith and it doesn't matter how they live from that point on because they are saved. Perseverence of the saints is that God preserves His elect in faith and keeps them by His grace. While they do fall and stumble they continue to seek to honor Christ in their lives by God's grace. While the elect cannot lose their salvation, that would make Christ a failure, they do live in faith in the tenor of their lives. They fall and are raised, they fall and are raised until they either die or Christ comes again.

 

[Rick Otto]

I've heard OSAS gives licence to sin from many others, but not someone who believes in perseverence of the saints. I can see what you mean, but I've never had a problem professing it, especialy since I'd heard Vernon McGee preach it from before I knew what the doctrines of grace & election were about.
I just never put stock in a profession of ANY kind of faith, especialy if it was attendant with a sinful lifestyle.

 

[Foundthelight]

I know a man who made a profession of faith and is convinced of his salvation. He has never once turned from his very sinful lifestyle and started on the path toward righteousness. He feels no conviction in his heart.

Yet he is convinced of his salvation. All because of the lie of the "Sinners Prayer" and the doctrine of OSAS. These two things are not in accord with the very biblical doctrine of Perseverance.

 

[mlqurgw]

I've heard OSAS gives licence to sin from many others, but not someone who believes in perseverence of the saints. I can see what you mean, but I've never had a problem professing it, especialy since I'd heard Vernon McGee preach it from before I knew what the doctrines of grace & election were about.
I just never put stock in a profession of ANY kind of faith, especialy if it was attendant with a sinful lifestyle.

Here is the problem with OSAS: A person goes to church because they are troubled about their life or some other thing and the preacher makes an emotional appeal. You get emotional and walk down the isle and say a prayer and the preacher tells you you are saved and can never loose it. You may attend to the things of God for a while but eventually the sin in you draws you back into a life of profligacy but you have been assured you are saved and can't loose it so you think everything is OK.

I had an experience once that makes my point. I was sitting in traffic one hot day with the windows down in Fla. and the girls beside me were loudly talking to the ones behind me of how much partying they had done the past weekend. It was awful. I reached over to ive a tract to the one beside me and her response was> " Oh! I am saved. I accepted Jesus into my life a while ago." That is OSAS.

 

[frumanchu]

"Once Saved Always Saved" and the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints often need to be distinguished. If anything, the latter should be categorized as a subset of the former.

 

[bradfordl]

Salvation is an act of God. Once he saves somebody, they are forever after always saved. What professors claim or whether they behave nicely after or not is immaterial. I think the doctrine of perserverence (or preservation) of the saints goes beyond OSAS and declares WHY they are always saved. Because God preserves them for Himself as a remnant. So what if some son of darkness is confused as to his state and imagines himself safe? Trying to convince him otherwise is pointless. That the girl in the car said she was saved proves nothing, the fact that she'd partied the night before proves nothing either, soteriologically anyway. Might indicate she's damned, might indicate she's saved but ensnared in error, might indicate she's not saved yet but someday might be.

My point is that since salvation is God's work, it must be defined in terms that acknowledge His perspective, that once its done it will never be undone. Being afraid that the unsaved might be falsely assured and continue in their willful sin because they hear that is misplaced concern. They would continue in it regardless of OSAS.

But His saints......

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[mlqurgw]

Salvation is an act of God. Once he saves somebody, they are forever after always saved. What professors claim or whether they behave nicely after or not is immaterial. I think the doctrine of perserverence (or preservation) of the saints goes beyond OSAS and declares WHY they are always saved. Because God preserves them for Himself as a remnant. So what if some son of darkness is confused as to his state and imagines himself safe? Trying to convince him otherwise is pointless. That the girl in the car said she was saved proves nothing, the fact that she'd partied the night before proves nothing either, soteriologically anyway. Might indicate she's damned, might indicate she's saved but ensnared in error, might indicate she's not saved yet but someday might be.

My point is that since salvation is God's work, it must be defined in terms that acknowledge His perspective, that once its done it will never be undone. Being afraid that the unsaved might be falsely assured and continue in their willful sin because they hear that is misplaced concern. They would continue in it regardless of OSAS.

But His saints......

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

What you have said is technically correct. At the same time I do believe we should be concerned whether a person has a false hope. Much of the Scriptures deal with those who have a false hope. To preach the Gospel is to seek to tear down those things in which folks hope that is not Christ. Love demands that we be concerned by it. I sincerely want people to believe in Christ, rest in Him and know Him. That is why I preach the Gospel.

 

[Catholic Dude]

"Once Saved Always Saved" and the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints often need to be distinguished. If anything, the latter should be categorized as a subset of the former.

I agree, infact I would go as far as to say they are two sides of the same coin.

That the girl in the car said she was saved proves nothing, the fact that she'd partied the night before proves nothing either, soteriologically anyway. Might indicate she's damned, might indicate she's saved but ensnared in error, might indicate she's not saved yet but someday might be.

Brilliant! I have been trying to point this fact out for a long time, it totally destroys OSAS.

 

[Rick Otto]

but now that I remember, Vernon McGee couldn't resist the temptation to deliver classic altar calls, hamfisted as they theologicaly may be.
Giving someone the opportunity to "decide to believe" or "repent" (or both) may be more effective if it happens in the context of encouragement rather than institutionalizing the moment. Some people benefit from knowing the exact time & day of their salvation.
I always felt a little self-concious about that, what with the amount of wrestling I still do with my conscience.
Still, an eternal gift is just that ~eternal.

 

[bradfordl]

Brilliant! I have been trying to point this fact out for a long time, it totally destroys OSAS

Whut?!?

Guess you didn't read the entire post. You seem to be confusing the opinion of the person with reality. Just because someone may erroneously believe themselves to be saved doesn't change the fact that those who are saved are saved eternally. Why would God save someone that He knows He will lose later. That's abrurd.

Brad

 

[Erinwilcox]

I know a man who made a profession of faith and is convinced of his salvation. He has never once turned from his very sinful lifestyle and started on the path toward righteousness. He feels no conviction in his heart.

Yet he is convinced of his salvation. All because of the lie of the "Sinners Prayer" and the doctrine of OSAS. These two things are not in accord with the very biblical doctrine of Perseverance.

Funny, I was just in a discussion like this in the Baptist/Anabaptist forum. I also know a young man very much like this. This young man is living a very wicked life-style, but (partly to appease his very godly grandmother, I think) still calls himself a Christian. He can't even get himself out of bed to go to church on Sundays and thinks that godly Christians are just radical. He evidences absolutely no fruits of salvation and shows little if any love for God or Christ. I posted this and asked if we had any right to be concerned for his soul. I was told that because he said the sinner's prayer and says that he's saved, he must be a Christian (who am I to judge?). Hmm. Anyway, in church the next Lord's Day, I read the following verses:

1Jo 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jo 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[colinlindsay]

Basically I can assume from this discussion taht at the very least OSAS and Perseverance are closely allied. Therefore those polemicists who are ranting on the internet are basically having a go at standard reformed teaching.
My position is that there are tensions in scripture on this issues and we are wise not to lock ourselves into positions where we are having to explain away difficult passages. Nor should we back away from an important doctrine just because some might use it as a licence for sin. Paul had this problem but he didn't compromise his Salvation by Faith gospel.
And yes I think Hebrews says that we can walk out of God's salvation, unless it's an extreme hypothetical abstraction that is being painted. But isn't that just 'explaining away'

 

[Catholic Dude]

Whut?!?
Guess you didn't read the entire post. You seem to be confusing the opinion of the person with reality. Just because someone may erroneously believe themselves to be saved doesn't change the fact that those who are saved are saved eternally. Why would God save someone that He knows He will lose later. That's abrurd.
Brad

The reality is this:

1)Not everyone who thinks they are OS is going to Heaven

2)Those who sin now or even hate Christianity might be one of those who is going to Heaven
​

The world is full of both types of these people.

This has nothing to do with who God decides to save, RATHER from man's perspective we know:

1. Not all who think they are going to Heaven will actually make it
2. Those who do evil may be set to repent later, even on their deathbed

Funny, I was just in a discussion like this in the Baptist/Anabaptist forum. I also know a young man very much like this. This young man is living a very wicked life-style, but (partly to appease his very godly grandmother, I think) still calls himself a Christian. He can't even get himself out of bed to go to church on Sundays and thinks that godly Christians are just radical. He evidences absolutely no fruits of salvation and shows little if any love for God or Christ. I posted this and asked if we had any right to be concerned for his soul. I was told that because he said the sinner's prayer and says that he's saved, he must be a Christian (who am I to judge?). Hmm. Anyway, in church the next Lord's Day, I read the following verses:

1Jo 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jo 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The truth is this doesnt prove anything. If a pastor murdered someone would you say their werent saved? No. Just like we dont know if Hitler repented on his deathbed.

 

[bradfordl]

The reality is this:

1)Not everyone who thinks they are OS is going to Heaven

2)Those who sin now or even hate Christianity might be one of those who is going to Heaven

​

The world is full of both types of these people.

This has nothing to do with who God decides to save, RATHER from man's perspective we know:

1. Not all who think they are going to Heaven will actually make it
2. Those who do evil may be set to repent later, even on their deathbed

Man's perspective is immaterial. Salvation is an act of God, and when He performs it, it cannot be undone. OSAS is fact. You don't know about the salvation of others, and maybe not about yourself, but what you do or don't know doesn't matter. Its a matter of God's choosing.

Brad

 

[heymikey80]

I agree, infact I would go as far as to say they are two sides of the same coin.

Not quite. There's overlap, but Perseverance is integrated into other doctrines that prevent easy-believism.

Generally American Calvinism accepts that once someone is saved they're saved. Frankly, if you're given eternal life, you then have a life that's eternal. Kinda hard to get beyond that.

Brilliant! I have been trying to point this fact out for a long time, it totally destroys OSAS.

Um, "Once I think I'm saved I'm always saved" is a slur of "once saved, always saved." It's rhetoric twisting doctrine, made by foes of the true doctrine on both sides of the OSAS argument.

And frankly, we agree with you on that point. Certainly people can be deceived.

Salvation is not thinking you're saved. Salvation is being saved.

However, if no one really knows about anything, then they're not really trusting Jesus Christ at His word. What is Jesus telling people when he teaches this?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Jn 10:27-29
​

 

[Nadiine]

Um, "Once I think I'm saved I'm always saved" is a slur of "once saved, always saved." It's rhetoric twisting doctrine, made by foes of the true doctrine on both sides of the OSAS argument.

And frankly, we agree with you on that point. Certainly people can be deceived.
Salvation is not thinking you're saved. Salvation is being saved.

I agree.

I accepted Christ & was baptized around the early age of 9. Then when I hit 13, I rebelled & turned into a wild child (desiring everything I shouldn't).

I later came BACK to the Lord for a few years, but never really established that close bond w/ the Lord intimately and when a major crisis hit me, formally kicked Him out of my life...
Then I really got into spiritual trouble/demonic oppression brinking on suicidal tendancies (long story) and RAN back to God with deeper understanding & need - His visible rescue of me brought a deep love for Him that I never felt before.

I said all that to say this, I admit that I have no earthly idea if I WAS saved prior to 10 yrs. ago.
I lived under heavy spiritual conviction all those yrs. & had to drink to dull my concience that ate me alive.

I was in agony emotionally & spiritually; knowing the wrong I was doing, yet being unable (& unwilling) to change it even though I wanted to live righteously! I literally longed for BOTH sides at the same time. (how can THAT be???)

IS THAT A SAVED PERSON? I dunno. I have no problem admitting that I may not have been in the first place.

In my view, "Once saved always saved" is not some copout-guarantee from God just so we can rest easy in our sin; as the BIBLE says, A GENUINELY CONVERTED SOUL WILL NOT LIVE IN CHRONIC WILLFUL SIN because He is a NEW creation in Christ who dwells inside of him.
People who attack this doctrine are (imho), removing the Power & work of the Holy Spirit; as if God can't work to change him.

Living in sin for a Christian is no picnic.
I'd venture to say that they're the most unhappy souls on the earth despite what people may see on the outside.

An interesting verse:
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God...
(sorry if I drifted Off Topic!?)

 

[seekingpurity047]

I generally use OSAS synonymously with perseverance of the saints. I dunno if I'm doing something wrong here, but that's what I get out of OSAS.

That is, unless you are a carnal christian. Plus, OSAS doesn't necessary mean "carnal christian", because like... the question is: What saves you? Well, Abraham believed and his faith was counted to him as righteousness. I guess this is why I use OSAS synonymously with Perseverance of the Saints. I hope I'm not making a mistake here. But, ya see, carnal "christians" are lacking in the faith department, they just basically said the sinners prayer and say that that's what saved them (which is why I detest alter calls). I dunno... yah... I use OSAS synonymously with Perseverance of the Saints.

Anyways, yah.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[heymikey80]

I generally use OSAS synonymously with perseverance of the saints. I dunno if I'm doing something wrong here, but that's what I get out of OSAS.

I think it makes perfect sense to do this from within Reformed thought.

It gets really strange when you start talking to non-Reformed Christians who believe OSAS, though. People start talking about their freedom to sin as license to do what they want, and I just have to shake my head and point out Paul's answer in Romans 6. That's not OSAS in the first place. But they tend to claim it is.

 

[seekingpurity047]

I think it makes perfect sense to do this from within Reformed thought.

It gets really strange when you start talking to non-Reformed Christians who believe OSAS, though. People start talking about their freedom to sin as license to do what they want, and I just have to shake my head and point out Paul's answer in Romans 6. That's not OSAS in the first place. But they tend to claim it is.

Well I have a couple of friends who are not full fledged calvinists, but believe in OSAS in the sense that I believe in OSAS. I guess we should just explain ourselves a little better when it concerns the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints in terms of OSAS.

Oddly, I haven't come across any christians who believe in OSAS that believe that they can do wahtever they want. If they believe that, then essentially, they do not have God in them, becuase that's what God does to us, He changes our heart so that we do not desire to sin. It's a matter of heart, not so much of action. Like, I sin all the time, and I pray every night that God would reveal these sins to me because they are not ok. They are terrible, and I really trust in God to reveal them to me. This is what christians shouljd always be striving for, to know that sin is wrong, and to be conscience of it and don't want to do it.

But I understand the idea that some peopel may get out of OSAS. Many people who refuse to believe OSAS refuse to believe in the Perseverance of the Saints. They say this because they don't think God can change our wills (or has, for that matter). Perseverance of the Saints is the beauty of Faith Alone.

To the glory of God,

Randy