Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

ToBeLoved · Apr 11, 2017

Imagican said:
Over and over in the Bible we are instructed concerning the 'proper path'. Do you mean to tell me that I can't be on the PROPER path and then decided that I don't want to follow the proper path any longer. That I can 'change the road I'm on'?

Please share the verses that talk about this proper path? Because my God is a personal God, with a specific will for each one of His Children, so how does that fit into this proper path theory?

Also, what do you consider to be the criteria that would indicate that someone decided not to follow whatever you think the 'proper path' is?

Although mankind loves to think they are powerful and know it all about God, unless God says it in His Word, it's not coming from God but the person speaking or writing the words.
Bible verses would be great.

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Well why don't you prove that is true?

Because many of the most Godly and obedient to Christ Christians I know believe OSAS.

So please show me what you say has ANY MERIT.

Please don't take the following as an insult or anything, because it's not meant to be. It's an honest question. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible, start to finish? I ask this because probably most Christians I meet have not. That's not a pejorative. I was a Christian for many, many year before I sat down and read the Good Book in its entirety.

If you read the entire Bible from start to finish you'll see story after story after story of people and/or nations being saved, rejecting God and losing salvation, returning to God and salvation again, rejecting Him and losing it again...on and on we go. It's kind of a central theme of the OT.

ToBeLoved · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
If you read the entire Bible from start to finish you'll see story after story after story of people and/or nations being saved, rejecting God and losing salvation, returning to God and salvation again, rejecting Him and losing it again...on and on we go. It's kind of a central theme of the OT.

I don't take it as an insult at all. I know the Bible well enough to hold my own, I think.

Now who are these people and nations who you see story after story about? You use it in the plural tense so in your understanding there is more than one? Who are these nations, please explain.

Salvation is not a theme of the Old Testament because they Israelite's were under Mosaic Law through the Old Covenant and the atonement of the Israelite's was never permenant. It was always a temporary atonement through animal sacrifice and the Levitical priesthood, so salvation that we have now in the New Covenant did not exist before Christ's death on the cross. Only Christ can permanantly atone for sin.

Each Covenant has it's own context and rules. That is the first thing that people have to understand. The Old Covenant very different than the New Covenant.

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I don't take it as an insult at all. I know the Bible well enough to hold my own, I think.

Now who are these people and nations who you see story after story about? You use it in the plural tense so in your understanding there is more than one? Who are these nations, please explain.

Salvation is not a theme of the Old Testament because they Israelite's were under Mosaic Law through the Old Covenant and the atonement of the Israelite's was never permenant. It was always a temporary atonement through animal sacrifice and the Levitical priesthood, so salvation that we have now in the New Covenant did not exist before Christ's death on the cross. Only Christ can permanantly atone for sin.

Each Covenant has it's own context and rules. That is the first thing that people have to understand. The Old Covenant very different than the New Covenant.

Thank you for taking my question in the spirit it was asked. It’s always difficult to ask that question, but it’s important to know sometimes for the sake of discussion. Personally, my perspectives on the Scripture changed once I actually read it in its entirety.

Big picture, yes, salvation was a theme in the OT, both literally and metaphorically.

Adam and Eve, good with God, Garden of Eden, turned from God, thrown out.

Several generations go by. Israelites, God’s chosen people, turned from God, enslaved in Egypt.

Israelites returned to God, led out of Egypt, turned from God time and again—repeatedly grumbled about food at water, wanted to return to slavery (how many times do we reject God and return to our personal slavery, sin?). At least twice God tells Moses to step aside so he can wipe out the Israelites for turning from Him (Moses begs forgiveness and God relents).

Moses sends twelve men into Canaan on a scouting trip, ten of twelve come back and start a revolt. God takes the Promised Land away from them by making them wander in the desert until everyone of that generation (sans Joshua, Caleb, and Moses) are dead. Moses himself isn’t allowed to cross the Jordan.

And then we have all the incidents in Joshua, Judges, Chronicles, and Kings where God’s chosen people turned from him and were either handed over to their enemies or stricken by plagues only to have their suffering lifted once they repented and returned to The Lord.

Believe me, I understand what you’re saying about the old covenant versus the new covenant. And those are very valid points. But the OT and NT aren’t standalone collections of writings. The NT fulfills the OT.

I appreciate your response. It’s always great to get someone else’s perspective on things. Thanks again.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
Please don't take the following as an insult or anything, because it's not meant to be. It's an honest question. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible, start to finish? I ask this because probably most Christians I meet have not. That's not a pejorative. I was a Christian for many, many year before I sat down and read the Good Book in its entirety.

If you read the entire Bible from start to finish you'll see story after story after story of people and/or nations being saved, rejecting God and losing salvation, returning to God and salvation again, rejecting Him and losing it again...on and on we go. It's kind of a central theme of the OT.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
Please don't take the following as an insult or anything, because it's not meant to be. It's an honest question. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible, start to finish? I ask this because probably most Christians I meet have not. That's not a pejorative. I was a Christian for many, many year before I sat down and read the Good Book in its entirety.

If you read the entire Bible from start to finish you'll see story after story after story of people and/or nations being saved, rejecting God and losing salvation, returning to God and salvation again, rejecting Him and losing it again...on and on we go. It's kind of a central theme of the OT.

If that's the case then, salvation according to you is by the works of fallen man. This is not what the OT teaches. Salvation has always been on the basis of divine election (grace). Even in the OT. This is what Paul explains in the book of Romans, especially in chapters 9-11. Romans 11:5-8 states Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.. but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." This is why salvation is secure in Christ. Because salvation is on the sole basis of Gods individual election resulting in faith in Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Deuteronomy 30:6 and Jeremiah 31:33 speak of this new birth of God writing His law on the hearts of His people. It is of faith that it may be by grace. Romans 4:16. As David describes the blessedness of the man, unto God imputes righteousness without works.. but through the righteousness of faith" Romans 4:6,13. God has always had a faithful remnant in the midst of rebellious Israel in the OT. So none of the faithful lost their salvation as Hebrews 11 describes the faithful who died in faith. Salvation cannot be lost because it is God who saves. Salvation is only lost to them who base salvation on the works of sinful man. Which is never taught in scripture. "For by one offering He has perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14. Christ Jesus and His merits is what the faithful rest in for eternal life.. not their works

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

MDC said:
If that's the case then, salvation according to you is by the works of fallen man.

Not works, my friend, faith. In each of those situations people lost faith in God. Their works were a reflection of what was in their hearts.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
Not works, my friend, faith. In each of those situations people lost faith in God. Their works were a reflection of what was in their hearts.

Correct and is why their works of unfaithfulness reflect they never had faith in the Lord. Salvation is of the Lord. And is why Paul explains this in Romans. The Lord always reserved a remnant according to the election of grace. Faith that perseveres is a result from regeneration and life. A heart that clings to Christ and His righteousness by Gods Spirit and power

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

MDC said:
Correct and is why their works of unfaithfulness reflect they never had faith in the Lord. Salvation is of the Lord. And is why Paul explains this in Romans. The Lord always reserved a remnant according to the election of grace. Faith that perseveres is a result from regeneration and life. A heart that clings to Christ and His righteousness by Gods Spirit and power

It's convenient for us to look at people who turn from God and say they never had real faith, as if we're in a position to judge that type of thing. It makes us feel better about ourselves and gives us a false sense of security. Instead, those examples should serve as a warning for us to remain diligent in our faith so that we never stray from it. When we take something for granted, it's easy to lose.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
It's convenient for us to look at people who turn from God and say they never had real faith, as if we're in a position to judge that type of thing. It makes us feel better about ourselves and gives us a false sense of security. Instead, those examples should serve as a warning for us to remain diligent in our faith so that we never stray from it. When we take something for granted, it's easy to lose.

But yet you judge them as having genuine faith rt?? Is that more convenient? To assume that they had genuine faith but yet fell away and lost their salvation? You're still not seeing what I'm saying. Salvation is of the Lord! There is none who can save but God alone. Sovereign grace saves in Christ Jesus. My security is only in Christ Jesus. This is the elects assurance from being delivered from their guilt and power of sin. So is your false sense of security in your own works of obedience that makes you feel better about your faith. You are rt, those are examples that should serve as a warning to remain diligent. Those warnings always brings a true child of God to see his own wretchedness and sin to cling in faith to Christ. True repentance leads to faith in Christ

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

MDC said:
But yet you judge them as having genuine faith rt?? Is that more convenient? To assume that they had genuine faith but yet fell away and lost their salvation?

I tend to take people at their word unless I have a compelling reason not to do so. When someone tells me they are a follower of Christ, why would I assume they're not? 1 Corinthians 13:7 "It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." Now that doesn't mean we have to go around being a bunch of oblivious rubes. But it does mean giving people the benefit of the doubt.

MDC said:
So is your false sense of security in your own works of obedience that makes you feel better about your faith.

I'm glad I didn't pay $1.99 a minute for that physic reading.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
I tend to take people at their word unless I have a compelling reason not to do so. When someone tells me they are a follower of Christ, why would I assume they're not? 1 Corinthians 13:7 "It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." Now that doesn't mean we have to go around being a bunch of oblivious rubes. But it does mean giving people the benefit of the doubt.

I'm glad I didn't pay $1.99 a minute for that physic reading.

So how does a profession of faith prove that they lost their salvation? I can tell you why u believe this. Because you base ones security of salvation on the maintaining of their works, and not on the works of Christ. The fact you believe one can be saved lost then saved and lost again, proves you see no assurance of salvation in Christ and the power of God that saves. So you tell me if those who believe this, have faith in Christ?

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

MDC said:
So how does a profession of faith prove that they lost their salvation? I can tell you why u believe this. Because you base ones security of salvation on the maintaining of their works, and not on the works of Christ. The fact you believe one can be saved lost then saved and lost again, proves you see no assurance of salvation in Christ and the power of God that saves. So you tell me if those who believe this, have faith in Christ?

Oh goodness. I'm so glad I'm not paying for this fortune telling. And still, I feel I want my money back.

MDC · Apr 11, 2017

JayW said:
Oh goodness. I'm so glad I'm not paying for this fortune telling. And still, I feel I want my money back.

Your hypocrisy shows with the answers you give. Those who teach and believe one can lose their salvation do not believe the gospel of Christ. You lead people to trust and look to themselves for assurance based on their works. That's a truth u can joke around with if you'd like

Phil 1:21 · Apr 11, 2017

MDC said:
Your hypocrisy shows with the answers you give. Those who teach and believe one can lose their salvation do not believe the gospel of Christ. You lead people to trust and look to themselves for assurance based on their works. That's a truth u can joke around with if you'd like

There's a certain point in some conversations where the other person refuses to read what you actually wrote and you realize you've already wasted far too much time. I passed that point with this exchange a while ago. So I'm just going to post that funny little emoji with the smoking incense ball and walk away chuckling a little bit. You have a blessed day.

Imagican · Apr 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Please share the verses that talk about this proper path? Because my God is a personal God, with a specific will for each one of His Children, so how does that fit into this proper path theory?

Also, what do you consider to be the criteria that would indicate that someone decided not to follow whatever you think the 'proper path' is?

Although mankind loves to think they are powerful and know it all about God, unless God says it in His Word, it's not coming from God but the person speaking or writing the words.
Bible verses would be great.

Matthew 7:

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Every verse of the Bible teaching us to FOLLOW concerns the 'proper path'.

The idea you have offered that each persons path is 'different' has no bearing on the PROPER path. You either follow in 'truth' or you don't. And truth is not subjective so far as God is concerned. There is only ONE truth, and that is the TRUTH of God.

Christ created a PATH to follow. It is the proper path. He spent much of His ministry defining that path. It is the path of 'righteousness' and 'truth'. And it is a very very narrow path.

I don't ask that you or anyone else FOLLOW ME. In fact, I would suggest that you NOT follow me. We ARE to follow Christ. And following Christ is to follow the path offered through His example.

I'm confused as to how you have not 'found' what has been offered concerning the 'proper path' in the Bible. Following the 'way' of this world is obviously a 'path'. Following the 'truth' is another path. A 'different' path than that which the world follows.

There are many paths that lead to 'darkness'. Only ONE path that leads to 'light'.

When you look into the night sky, to stare at a 'star' is a direct path to it's LIGHT. Everything around it is darkness. If you were to travel to that star, in order to get there would require a STRAIGHT path.

When you travel anywhere, in order to get there you MUST take the proper path. If you turn away from that path, you end up somewhere else. If you continually take a DIFFERENT path, you will never get where you want to go.

Following the proper path may be different for each of us. But 'the path' that leads to Salvation is the same for EVERYONE. If there is ONLY 'one heaven', then there can be only ONE path that leads us there.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Apr 12, 2017

What a surprise it would be to face judgement only to find you had spent you whole life following and defending a 'false Christ'. And imagine the guilt one would face realizing that they had done everything in their power to SWAY others into the same 'false faith'.

Churches that persecuted the TRUE followers for the sake of a 'false Christ'. Think of the potentially leading of thousands or MILLIONS in a 'false direction'.

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Blessings,

MEC

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