Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

The new covenant

Now you may be wondering why people cannot act however they like if they do not have to be good enough for God. For if their salvation hinges on faith, and not being good enough under the law, surely they can do whatever they want without a care in the world. People should be free to rob a bank, for instance, and not worry about it, for they are righteous in God’s sight by faith, and that has no bearing on how they live out their lives, correct?

Well to answer this important point, I would like to draw your attention to a huge difference between the Old Covenant that existed before Christ died on the cross, and the New Covenant that followed. The writer of Hebrews states in the tenth chapter and the sixteenth and seventeenth verses: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)

Now what does it mean to put God’s laws in the hearts and write them on the minds of new converts? Well, I like the way the Living Bible puts verse sixteen: “‘I will write My laws into their minds so that they will always know My will, and I will put My laws in their hearts so that they will want to obey them.’”

It means, therefore, converts will want to obey the good and holy laws of God in their hearts. Now this does not mean a long list of laws will flash before their eyes every waking minute of their lives. No. It means that in their minds they instinctively know how God wants them to live, and in their hearts they want to live as God desires. They no longer seek a life of sin, but a life in line with God’s will. They have in this sense been born again. That is what Jesus told Nicodemus must happen the night he came to see Him in John 3:3: “‘Very truly I tell you No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.’” (NIV)

New converts are changed by the Holy Spirit who has entered their lives. He lives in them, and their conscience will now bear witness to wrong things in their lives in a way it did not before. This is an amazing thing God does for those who come to His Son. No man could

bring about such a change in himself − only God could − and it is a provision He makes for all those who accept His Son as their Lord and Saviour.

You see, the Israelites in the Old Testament had the written law – the laws they were to follow to live as God desired. God gave that law to them at Mt. Sinai. The most famous of these laws were the Ten Commandments, though God gave many other laws, as well. Most of the time, however, those written laws stood against the Israelites because in their hearts they didn’t want to follow God. They almost mechanically strove to obey because the law was not written on their hearts. They thought they would be all right if they simply followed certain rules, regulations, and ceremonies. It is the heart that matters most to God, however, and their hearts were far away from Him most of the time, whereas those who are born again under the New Covenant want in their hearts to obey God.

God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff-necked people who would soon desert Him once they reached the Promised Land. Their history as a nation records that most of the time they turned away from God, got into a mess, and found themselves in dire situations. Then they repented of their wrongs and asked for God’s help, and He forgave them and got them out of the messes they were in. This was a cycle they repeated over and over again. It wasn’t always like this, but the vast majority of the time it was. So you see, having the written law didn’t in itself help them, because their hearts were far from God most of the time.

But that was the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, which reigns supreme today, God has softened our hearts by putting the desire to obey Him within us. The prophet Ezekiel wrote of this hundreds of years before Christ died on the cross. He says in the thirty-sixth chapter of his book and the twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh verses: “‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.’” (NIV)

God says “I will” three times in the above verse. You see, friend, it is what God does for us. He will give us new hearts. He will remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh. He will put his Spirit within us and move us to want to obey His laws. God will do these things for all those who accept His Son as their Saviour.

So not only do we have a totally free salvation, but when we come to God through His Son, God changes us into people who want to please and obey Him in our hearts. Now anyone who wants to obey God in his or her heart cannot at the same time wilfully − without conscience − seek to disobey Him, correct? Such a thing is not possible.

Now when you are born again something significant happens. You become aware of your sin before God for the first time in your life. In order for us to understand why this is so, we need to understand what sin actually is. The disciple John tells us in 1 John 3:4, “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (KJV)

So we see the definition of sin. It is breaking the law of God. The Apostle Paul states in Romans 3:20, “Through the law we become conscious of our sin.” (NIV)

You see, friend, only when you are conscious of God’s laws can you be conscious of your shortfall of obedience to those laws, and your shortfall of obedience is your sin. For sin is breaking the law of God. Before you become a Christian, you sin in ignorance of the fact that you are sinning. Once you become a Christian, however, the spotlight has been turned on. Through the knowledge of God’s laws placed on our hearts and written on our minds, therefore, we have knowledge in our hearts of how far short we fall in obedience to God’s laws. At that point, we have a heartfelt conviction of our sin.

Now we have looked at what it means to be born again. Let us now look at the second core component of the New Covenant the Christian is under, which is found in verse seventeen: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” So under the terms of the New Covenant, a person’s sins (which are lawless acts) will be remembered no more. We know this is true, of course, because Jesus died for our sins at Calvary.

At the very moment you accept Christ as your Saviour, therefore, the Holy Spirit places the law God wants you to keep on your heart and writes it on your mind. You are born again. This results in you desiring in your heart to live as God wants you to. Because that is what you want, Jesus is an atonement for your sin.

You see, friend, God is not stupid. He had it all figured out. He did not create a covenant whereby those who know they have a righteousness before Him apart from the law would then use that knowledge as a licence to sin. He created a covenant whereby He places the desire to obey Him in the hearts of those who accept His Son as their Saviour. Because that is what they want, He will remember their sins no more. So we see the two foundational principles of the New Covenant are inextricably linked. God changes us into people who want to obey, and because we do, Christ paid the penalty of our sin.

You see, there is what we can term an “unbridgeable gap” that will be reflected in our lives. That gap is the difference between the perfect demands of God’s good and holy laws and our obedience to them. Now as I have met no one who has claimed to be perfect in his or her flesh, I have met no one who has ever claimed to obey God’s laws perfectly. We all fall short, every one of us. Thus we can say, “Christ died to bridge the unbridgeable gap.” The more we follow the true path of the Gospel message, the narrower the gap becomes. A gap, however, will always remain, friend, for you will never be perfect in your flesh.

I would once again place before you the basis of the covenant the Christian is under, friend, for it is something we need to fully appreciate to move forward in the Christian faith. So once again, here Hebrews 10:16-17: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

PART 1

Don’t try to be good enough

If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence

stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?

Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.

There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

Now suppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night and becomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He has forgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight because Jesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. He has hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not as yet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flying start as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo” sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.

So he sets out on the Christian walk. He is convicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on his heart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goes out with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantily clad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as she stands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Though he previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughts concerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t have those kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.

The following week he is out again with friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. This time the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts, therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells on them a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worse than he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have to stop.

A few days later he is watching television. A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Week after week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her a second glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirs up a hornet’s nest in his mind.

Over the next few months the excitement grows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impure thoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became a Christian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections in his life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt God immediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not so confident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?

The excitement women stir in him mounts, it becomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now daily pleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries his hardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. It is like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come to nothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because they wouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.

Eventually he finds the excitement that women stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spends far less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by his failed efforts to resist.

The final straw comes when he hires out a pornographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed. In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became a Christian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such as the ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed, convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesus died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, he couldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.

Now this young man became a Christian. He was immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on the young man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improper thoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, he would not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previously saw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious of our sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the light is turned on. So the young man earnestly desired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, which is basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stop sinning. It cannot, friend, for by its definition, it is a nature that desires to break the law of God.

Now why did such fear and excitement overcome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of this highest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improper thoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) of hell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battle for the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attached to it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature, and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of the battle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitement overcame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had a field day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.

You see, friend, there is no faith in fear, and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If that young man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins when improper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed any great risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have never overcome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been no high stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not stand on a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasing lust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had the young man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather than trying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and would not have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free of the sin in his heart. That would not change if he had looked to Christ and stood by faith in Him. He would still have hated the sin and wanted to be free of it, but he would not have let the sin condemn him.

Now we can say the young man would have felt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he died spiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, through the commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, and good. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God.

Now, friend, listen to the words of Paul in Romans 7:9-13. He is speaking of a time the law came to him when he came of age to make a commitment to God. This would have been before his conversion to Christianity, therefore:

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin (consciousness) sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. (NIV)

You see, friend, Paul the Pharisee, and the young man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be good enough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sin according to the law’s requirements.

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

PART 2

Now you may say, Paul was a one off, and the young man is a fictitious story. Well let us look first at the Pharisees, the religious party to which Paul belonged before he converted to Christianity.

The leaders of the Pharisees gave all the outward signs of being holy, God-fearing people. They attended all the synagogue meetings and knew the literal words of the then-scriptures inside and out. They tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin and did good

deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had extramarital affairs, or smoked I imagine if smoking had been invented then. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets their forefathers murdered and said, “We would never have acted as they did.” Yet it was not enough. Jesus said they did not even know His Father, and He reserved his harshest criticisms for them. So why was Jesus so upset with the Pharisees? I would like us to look at a few of the comments He made to them, beginning with John 5:45: “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.” (NIV)

When Jesus said the Pharisees’ hopes were set on Moses, He was saying the Pharisees pinned their hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law given to Moses at Sinai. Now you may wonder, What is wrong with that? God gave the law to the people. If they had obeyed it, they would have been considered righteous in His sight. That is true, but the Pharisees made fundamental mistakes as we shall see from the words of Jesus in Matthew 23:27-28:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. (NIV)

Now we read of what happened to Paul when he hinged his hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law. He said in Philippians 3:6 that he was faultless as a Pharisee when it came to keeping the legalistic laws, but in Romans 7:8 he said he could not obey, “Thou shalt not covet.” Legalistic laws may at times be tiresome to keep, but it is not so hard to go through rite, ritual, and ceremony, is it? However, they are laws that concern what can be seen on the outside. “Thou shalt not covet,” however is a law you can break without anyone but you and God knowing about it, isn’t it? You can desire what you should not desire, you can covet as much as you want, and no other person has to know you are doing it. So you can look righteous and clean on the outside, but at the same time be full of everything unclean on the inside. Now if the young man had decided to continue going to church, would he not have been forced to appear righteous on the outside while full of uncleanliness on the inside? Would he not have had to act as Jesus said the Pharisees of His day acted?

But friend, the worst thing of all concerning the Pharisees can be found in the following words of Jesus in Matthew 23:2-4:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)

You see, the Pharisees told the people how they must live according to the law; however, they could not attain themselves to what they demanded of others. So they crushed the people with heavy loads, but offered them no help once they had crushed them. The people would have seen the Pharisees appear on the outside as such Godly people, and would have imagined the inside of the cup was the same. And when the Pharisees were most insistent that others fully obey the law, the ordinary folk would have imagined that the Pharisees, who appeared so very righteous on the outside, had already attained on the inside what they demanded of others. Yet we know this was not the truth, according to Jesus’ words. The people would have become terribly crushed, don’t you think? For they would have known on the inside they were not perfect according to their flesh. Yet the Pharisees would have been demanding almost sinless perfection. The result must be the people would have felt much guilt and condemnation. That, friend, is why Jesus reserved his harshest words for the Pharisees.

Now if that young man had remained in church, he would have had no choice but to promote a Gospel message he could not himself live up to, correct? This, friend, is the result of trying to attain Heaven by being good enough. I hope the words of Jesus convince you of the folly of taking such a road.

Now King David lived under the Old Covenant. God said he was a man after His own heart. This is what David said, according to Psalm 103:10: “He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.” (NIV)

We can see here that David was not a proud person who believed he would attain Heaven by being good enough. For he said God does not treat people according to what they deserve. Yet a Pharisee and the young Christian believed God would treat them according to their personal goodness under the law. David did not rely ultimately on obedience to the law, however. For he said in Psalm 52:8, “I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.” (NIV)

David loved God, and knew he was secure in God’s love for him. Because he knew he was secure in God’s love, he wanted to obey out of love for God, not because he thought he could have a true righteousness of his own by doing so. David knew no such righteousness existed. He said in Psalm 143:2, “Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.” (NIV)

You see, friend, no one has ever been truly righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it. Now there is a huge difference between David wanting to obey out of love and the Pharisees wanting to try to obey because they thought they could be good enough. David knew his bottom line before God. He trusted in God’s unfailing love for him; the Pharisees did not. By their attitude, they neglected what mattered most. Jesus said in Luke 11:42, “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God.” (NIV)

You see, if you believe you have to strive to be good enough for God, you will neglect the love, mercy, and compassion of God in the process. You don’t need it if you think you can be righteous under your own effort, do you? It is then all about what you have achieved − what you have done. You would not then depend on God’s unfailing love for you as David did.

Let us consider the young man who walked away crushed. Would he have believed in the love, mercy, and compassion of God? If your parents told you when you were a child that unless you performed almost perfectly under their rules they would cast you out, would you have believed they were loving parents? You wouldn’t, would you? The young man believed ultimately he could not be good enough; therefore, he never knew how great God’s love was, for he never followed the true Gospel.

You see, friend, King David understood the truth. The bottom line under the Old Covenant was God’s unfailing love, and Christ showed that unfailing love to us under the New Covenant by dying for our sins at Calvary. For the God who initiated the Old Covenant, also initiated the new one; therefore, David hinged his hope of eternal life on God’s unfailing love, whereas the Pharisees, as did Paul before he converted to Christianity, hinged their hope of eternal life on being good enough. David, therefore, delighted in obeying God’s laws out of love for God, whereas the Pharisees became full of hypocrisy, wickedness, and everything unclean on the inside.

Now we have looked at the Pharisees, but is the young man really just a fictitious story that would never happen in real life? I know of Christian counsellors who have spent much time with people who have become Christians and ended up consumed by lust. No, friend, tragically that is all too often real life.

So I feel I must repeat to those of you who believe you could not be a Christian because you know you could never be good enough for God. God does not want people who think they can be good enough. He wants people who acknowledge they cannot be good enough: people who will praise Him and thank him for the unfailing love He showed by sending His Son to die for us undeserving sinners.

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

Paul believed sin will not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace. So he is really saying that sin will not be your master, for you are not under the penalty attached to the law if you break it.

You see, it is the penalty of sin that makes you so fearful of sin, and your fear of sin produces great allurement in you to sin. If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such a creature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. Now the more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. You see, however, as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked up about it, will you? Paul states Romans 7:5-6:

For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)

Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?

Well, you see, the same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state, friend. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

Now I would not want you to be under the misapprehension that God gave the law to Moses at Mt. Sinai so it would arouse sinful passions in people. I would remind you of King David’s bottom line before God, for he lived under the Old Covenant. He trusted in God’s unfailing love for him. He said no one was righteous before God. So he didn’t trust in a righteousness of his own under the law to attain Heaven, did he? He loved God and knew he was secure in God’s love for him, so he delighted in obeying God’s laws out of his love for God. That is how all should have viewed the law, but most didn’t.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The new covenant

Now you may be wondering why people cannot act however they like if they do not have to be good enough for God. For if their salvation hinges on faith, and not being good enough under the law, surely they can do whatever they want without a care in the world. People should be free to rob a bank, for instance, and not worry about it, for they are righteous in God’s sight by faith, and that has no bearing on how they live out their lives, correct?

Well to answer this important point, I would like to draw your attention to a huge difference between the Old Covenant that existed before Christ died on the cross, and the New Covenant that followed. The writer of Hebrews states in the tenth chapter and the sixteenth and seventeenth verses: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)

Now what does it mean to put God’s laws in the hearts and write them on the minds of new converts? Well, I like the way the Living Bible puts verse sixteen: “‘I will write My laws into their minds so that they will always know My will, and I will put My laws in their hearts so that they will want to obey them.’”

It means, therefore, converts will want to obey the good and holy laws of God in their hearts. Now this does not mean a long list of laws will flash before their eyes every waking minute of their lives. No. It means that in their minds they instinctively know how God wants them to live, and in their hearts they want to live as God desires. They no longer seek a life of sin, but a life in line with God’s will. They have in this sense been born again. That is what Jesus told Nicodemus must happen the night he came to see Him in John 3:3: “‘Very truly I tell you No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.’” (NIV)

New converts are changed by the Holy Spirit who has entered their lives. He lives in them, and their conscience will now bear witness to wrong things in their lives in a way it did not before. This is an amazing thing God does for those who come to His Son. No man could

bring about such a change in himself − only God could − and it is a provision He makes for all those who accept His Son as their Lord and Saviour.

You see, the Israelites in the Old Testament had the written law – the laws they were to follow to live as God desired. God gave that law to them at Mt. Sinai. The most famous of these laws were the Ten Commandments, though God gave many other laws, as well. Most of the time, however, those written laws stood against the Israelites because in their hearts they didn’t want to follow God. They almost mechanically strove to obey because the law was not written on their hearts. They thought they would be all right if they simply followed certain rules, regulations, and ceremonies. It is the heart that matters most to God, however, and their hearts were far away from Him most of the time, whereas those who are born again under the New Covenant want in their hearts to obey God.

God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff-necked people who would soon desert Him once they reached the Promised Land. Their history as a nation records that most of the time they turned away from God, got into a mess, and found themselves in dire situations. Then they repented of their wrongs and asked for God’s help, and He forgave them and got them out of the messes they were in. This was a cycle they repeated over and over again. It wasn’t always like this, but the vast majority of the time it was. So you see, having the written law didn’t in itself help them, because their hearts were far from God most of the time.

But that was the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, which reigns supreme today, God has softened our hearts by putting the desire to obey Him within us. The prophet Ezekiel wrote of this hundreds of years before Christ died on the cross. He says in the thirty-sixth chapter of his book and the twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh verses: “‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.’” (NIV)

God says “I will” three times in the above verse. You see, friend, it is what God does for us. He will give us new hearts. He will remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh. He will put his Spirit within us and move us to want to obey His laws. God will do these things for all those who accept His Son as their Saviour.

So not only do we have a totally free salvation, but when we come to God through His Son, God changes us into people who want to please and obey Him in our hearts. Now anyone who wants to obey God in his or her heart cannot at the same time wilfully − without conscience − seek to disobey Him, correct? Such a thing is not possible.

Now when you are born again something significant happens. You become aware of your sin before God for the first time in your life. In order for us to understand why this is so, we need to understand what sin actually is. The disciple John tells us in 1 John 3:4, “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (KJV)

So we see the definition of sin. It is breaking the law of God. The Apostle Paul states in Romans 3:20, “Through the law we become conscious of our sin.” (NIV)

You see, friend, only when you are conscious of God’s laws can you be conscious of your shortfall of obedience to those laws, and your shortfall of obedience is your sin. For sin is breaking the law of God. Before you become a Christian, you sin in ignorance of the fact that you are sinning. Once you become a Christian, however, the spotlight has been turned on. Through the knowledge of God’s laws placed on our hearts and written on our minds, therefore, we have knowledge in our hearts of how far short we fall in obedience to God’s laws. At that point, we have a heartfelt conviction of our sin.

Now we have looked at what it means to be born again. Let us now look at the second core component of the New Covenant the Christian is under, which is found in verse seventeen: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” So under the terms of the New Covenant, a person’s sins (which are lawless acts) will be remembered no more. We know this is true, of course, because Jesus died for our sins at Calvary.

At the very moment you accept Christ as your Saviour, therefore, the Holy Spirit places the law God wants you to keep on your heart and writes it on your mind. You are born again. This results in you desiring in your heart to live as God wants you to. Because that is what you want, Jesus is an atonement for your sin.

You see, friend, God is not stupid. He had it all figured out. He did not create a covenant whereby those who know they have a righteousness before Him apart from the law would then use that knowledge as a licence to sin. He created a covenant whereby He places the desire to obey Him in the hearts of those who accept His Son as their Saviour. Because that is what they want, He will remember their sins no more. So we see the two foundational principles of the New Covenant are inextricably linked. God changes us into people who want to obey, and because we do, Christ paid the penalty of our sin.

You see, there is what we can term an “unbridgeable gap” that will be reflected in our lives. That gap is the difference between the perfect demands of God’s good and holy laws and our obedience to them. Now as I have met no one who has claimed to be perfect in his or her flesh, I have met no one who has ever claimed to obey God’s laws perfectly. We all fall short, every one of us. Thus we can say, “Christ died to bridge the unbridgeable gap.” The more we follow the true path of the Gospel message, the narrower the gap becomes. A gap, however, will always remain, friend, for you will never be perfect in your flesh.

I would once again place before you the basis of the covenant the Christian is under, friend, for it is something we need to fully appreciate to move forward in the Christian faith. So once again, here Hebrews 10:16-17: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)

While you may say that the OSAS Proponent desires to obey God (Because the Law is written in their heart) we both know they really don't obey God because you said before that the OSAS position states that Galatians 2:17, and 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that they will always be in sin. Also, many religionists desire to obey God and also they really don't obey Him (even by their own standards or rules). So I do not see how your belief is any different then say other religions that say they desire to obey God and really don't keep their own laws. Also, lets say you are suggesting that the true believer will keep God's moral law of love because God changes them. Does that mean God forces salvation upon someone because of a one time decision to accept Christ? Does that mean they no longer have free will anymore in regards to salvation? Also, while you appear to say that the Law is written in the believer's heart (making it appear that you are for obeying God's laws), on the other hand you talk against God's laws by giving me the impression that we should not focus on obeying His commands in the New Testament. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Paul says anyone who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
As you requested

A person comes before God in fear UNTIL they learn to walk perfectly in his ways.
So you only fear God until you perfectly obey 1050 commands.
As you say, love casts out fear

No. You are stiching together two different phrases out of context of what I said. That is misrepresenting somebody. Nowhere did I say the exact words you are saying. This is wrong to do this.

Besides, I also stated before in 1 John 5:16-18 that there are sins unto death and there are sins not unto death. Sins unto death are sins that lead to second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These sins would be murder, hate, adultery, theft, coveting, lying, idolatry, etc. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). Sins not unto death would be not obeying the command to be baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions or boasting in each other (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

...

ToBeLoved · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
While you may say that the OSAS Proponent desires to obey God (Because the Law is written in their heart) we both know they really don't obey God because you said before that the OSAS position states that Galatians 2:17, and 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that they will always be in sin.

Talk about purposely bearing false witness against millions of people.

I'm not sure you even understand real love for God. Maybe you are so steeped in fear that you cannot dig yourself out of that hole.

But please do not put us in a hole next to you because you lack the real love of God in your life. That is not right.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness"

Think about what Jesus said is the GREATEST Commandment "LOVE GOD with ALL your heart, soul and mind"

Try it sometime. Something is wrong when someone needs to speculate about everyone else around them, yet cannot speak their own Truth. Something is very wrong here.

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
While you may say that the OSAS Proponent desires to obey God (Because the Law is written in their heart) we both know they really don't obey God because you said before that the OSAS position states that Galatians 2:17, and 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that they will always be in sin. Also, many religionists desire to obey God and also they really don't obey Him (even by their own standards or rules). So I do not see how your belief is any different then say other religions that say they desire to obey God and really don't keep their own laws. Also, lets say you are suggesting that the true believer will keep God's moral law of love because God changes them. Does that mean God forces salvation upon someone because of a one time decision to accept Christ? Does that mean they no longer have free will anymore in regards to salvation? Also, while you appear to say that the Law is written in the believer's heart (making it appear that you are for obeying God's laws), on the other hand you talk against God's laws by giving me the impression that we should not focus on obeying His commands in the New Testament. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Paul says anyone who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

....

You yourself commit sin, so according to your stated belief you in your heart dont want to obey God. You need to stop and think before you reem doctrine off from your head.
I appear to state the law is written/ placed on the heart? The core foundation on which the NC stands states that in scripture
And you have previously admitted That what is placed on your heart you must feel bad at going against.

Dont just woodenly quote the letter. Pray for understanding of it. A minister must be able to explain what scripture means, explain it concerning the day to day life of the believer giving them practical examples of this

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
While you may say that the OSAS Proponent desires to obey God (Because the Law is written in their heart) we both know they really don't obey God because you said before that the OSAS position states that Galatians 2:17, and 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that they will always be in sin. Also, many religionists desire to obey God and also they really don't obey Him (even by their own standards or rules). So I do not see how your belief is any different then say other religions that say they desire to obey God and really don't keep their own laws. Also, lets say you are suggesting that the true believer will keep God's moral law of love because God changes them. Does that mean God forces salvation upon someone because of a one time decision to accept Christ? Does that mean they no longer have free will anymore in regards to salvation? Also, while you appear to say that the Law is written in the believer's heart (making it appear that you are for obeying God's laws), on the other hand you talk against God's laws by giving me the impression that we should not focus on obeying His commands in the New Testament. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Paul says anyone who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

....

Paul tells us we have been released from the law and serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the written code( rom7:6)

You look to Christ and trust him, you must look away from yourself. The more you do this, the mire the fruits of the spirit grow in your life. Against Tha fruit there is no law( gal5:23)
For the fruits of the spirit are the embodiment of how God wants you to live.

I dont think it wise for you to continually quote gal2:17, for you showed a lack of understanding what Tha verse meant in the context of what Paul was writing about when you tried to explain it

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
No. You are stiching together two different phrases out of context of what I said. That is misrepresenting somebody. Nowhere did I say the exact words you are saying. This is wrong to do this.

Besides, I also stated before in 1 John 5:16-18 that there are sins unto death and there are sins not unto death. Sins unto death are sins that lead to second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These sins would be murder, hate, adultery, theft, coveting, lying, idolatry, etc. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). Sins not unto death would be not obeying the command to be baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions or boasting in each other (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

...

I will happily leave it to others as to what you meant in the post, they can make up their own minds as I did.
However, it I very consistent with the main thrust of your posts which is.
If you love God you will faultlessly obey him

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You yourself commit sin, so according to your stated belief you in your heart dont want to obey God. You need to stop and think before you reem doctrine off from your head.
I appear to state the law is written/ placed on the heart? The core foundation on which the NC stands states that in scripture
And you have previously admitted That what is placed on your heart you must feel bad at going against.

Dont just woodenly quote the letter. Pray for understanding of it. A minister must be able to explain what scripture means, explain it concerning the day to day life of the believer giving them practical examples of this

I do not commit sin that leads unto the Second Death as a way of life. There are many days I do not faulter. If I do slip on rare occasion, I confess and forsake such a sin. But I would categorize my walk as upright and not steeped in sin. Minor faults like not being baptized is not the same as murder. There is also an unforgivable sin. That is speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost. But OSAS Proponents believe this is about rejecting the faith even though the text does not say that. You may mock the believer who desires to obey God, but that will only make things worse for you (if you do so).

Anyways, I am frankly no longer interested in talking with you anymore.
I agree that people should read the Word of God in what we have both written and also read the fruits of our own words as a testimony to the truth.

People are going to do either the right thing or the wrong thing on this matter. Those who believe in God's goodness or morality will not tolerate in breaking God's commands; For they will realize that the wages of sin is death.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Talk about purposely bearing false witness against millions of people.

I'm not sure you even understand real love for God. Maybe you are so steeped in fear that you cannot dig yourself out of that hole.

But please do not put us in a hole next to you because you lack the real love of God in your life. That is not right.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness"

Think about what Jesus said is the GREATEST Commandment "LOVE GOD with ALL your heart, soul and mind"

Try it sometime. Something is wrong when someone needs to speculate about everyone else around them, yet cannot speak their own Truth. Something is very wrong here.

I am also not interested in talking to you anymore either.
Believe whatever you want to believe.
Just know it is not what is written in God's Word.
For I have brought forth many verses that you did not explain.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I do not commit sin that leads unto the Second Death as a way of life. There are many days I do not faulter. If I do slip on rare occasion, I confess and forsake such a sin. But I would categorize my walk as upright and not steeped in sin. Minor faults like not being baptized is not the same as murder. There is also an unforgivable sin. That is speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost. But OSAS Proponents believe this is about rejecting the faith even though the text does not say that. You may mock the believer who desires to obey God, but that will only make things worse for you (if you do so).

Anyways, I am frankly no longer interested in talking with you anymore.
I agree that people should read the Word of God in what we have both written and also read the fruits of our own words as a testimony to the truth.

People are going to do either the right thing or the wrong thing on this matter. Those who believe in God's goodness or morality will not tolerate in breaking God's commands; For they will realize that the wages of sin is death.

...

All you are trying to do is defend a righteousness of your own under the law.
And what you write of yourself appears as an effort to boast of self to me

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
All you are trying to do is defend a righteousness of your own under the law.
And what you write of yourself appears as an effort to boast of self to me

How can it be my own righteousness if it is a righteous standard or command put forth by God within His own Word under the New Testament?

Jesus says he that teaches to keep His commandments will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19).

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

Anyways, Stuart, and ToBeLoved, just please ignore my posts.
I would prefer not talking to you two anymore.
You are going to see what you want to see (no matter what I say).
And you also seek to throw in little jabs or insults (which is not appreciated).

In any event, may God's love shine upon you two.

...

ToBeLoved · Jan 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
All you are trying to do is defend a righteousness of your own under the law.
And what you write of yourself appears as an effort to boast of self to me

So you told him you do not want to talk anymore yet respond to him?

Confusing

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

May the Lord bless you all.

...

supescritter · Jan 17, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Although most will not admit it, OSAS is similar to Calvinism because it denies "free will." How so? Well, many OSAS proponents essentially are saying "free will" in regards to salvation does not exist after you are saved (Whereas the Calvinist believes "free will" does not exist whatsoever in regards to salvation because they believe a person is regenerated before they are saved). Anyways, "free will" does not exist aftewards for the OSAS proponent because they believe the saint will always do good in time. But if this is true then how does one explain Matthew 6:15? Was Jesus speaking to believers or unbelievers in such a verse? For would it do any good for an unbeliever to forgive if they did not accept Christ? Surely not; And Matthew 6:15 clearly says that if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. So it's a condition. But OSAS believers think that no true believer can walk away from God. Hence, once a person checks in, they can't check out. God has forever forced His love upon them for their one time decision (whether they like it or not) or they have been forced changed by God (against their free will) whereby they can no longer refuse Him. Then why doesn't God just force save everyone? Does a one time decision for Christ truly make that person better if they were to turn around and then do evil? Surely not. Jesus is in the habit of transforming lives (with a person's free will cooperation of course).

Anyways, in my many years of discussion in regards to this topic, I have discovered that there are different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven. I have talked to real people who believe this. One of them admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and still be saved in the process of doing so.

Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin; However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire. I have talked to a few who believe this. They are harder to spot, but they are basically still saying you can do some kind of evil and be saved (although it just a little bit of evil or sin in proportion to living a holy life).

OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with. This view is wrong because it makes it makes you doubt the promises of God like 1 John 1:9 and James 5:19-20.

Another bad doctrine that is tied to OSAS and is popular is:

Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD)
This is a wrong teaching that there are two or more gospels under the New Testament. This wrong doctrine was created no doubt for people to deny the holy teachings of Jesus Christ. Which is popular among Classic OSAS proponents. For Paul's words on holiness are easier to twist than Jesus' words. However, Paul essentially said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that any man who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.

The problem with OSAS is that it ignores the standard of morality set forth in God's Word. Where the Bible says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15), the OSAS proponent changes the plain straight forward meaning of this verse into something else (that doesn't even make any sense).

You are not teaching me anything new. This is how the OSAS Proponent explains chapters 1-3 in John's 1st epistle. They think asking for forgiveness in 1 John 1:9 deals with restoring fellowship and not salvation. I have talked extensively with other OSAS proponents on these three chapters and they have not really brought forth a verse that says that these chapters are dealing exclusively with a break in fellowship and not a loss of salvation. In fact, just read the verses for yourself and they will tell you that they are dealing with salvation.

1 John 1:7 is one of the key verses.

1 John 1:7 says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light as he is in the light is in reference to obeying God's Commands. For 1 John 1:6 is the opposite contrast of 1 John 1:7. It says, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). Now, lets compare 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 2:4. 1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So darkness is a contrast with not keeping his commandments. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is the transgression of the law." Okay, so we have these facts:

(a) 1 John 1:7 says, Walking in the light as He is in the light is keeping the commandments. Yet, in the other verses in John's epistle it says not keeping his commands makes us a liar and it is sin (See 1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 3:4).

(b) 1 John 1:6 says the same thing 1 John 2:4 does. Darkness is another way of saying not keeping his commandments or sin (1 John 3:4).

(c) Both 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 say we lie and do not the truth if we say we know him and walk in darkness or do not keep his commandments.

But if we were to look at the rest of 1 John 1:7, it says, if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is keeping God's commandments; And it says that by walking in this light in Christ the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Note: You cannot be forgiven of sin without the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. We walk in the light as He is in the light so as to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us of all sin.

Still not convinced?

Let's look at 1 John 3:8. It says he that commits sin is of the devil.
Yet, 1 John 3:7 says, he that does righteousness is righteous.
1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Here it is. The bombshell has been dropped and should shatter any false idea of OSAS. He that does not righteousness and or does not love his brother is not of God. It contrasts this with the children of the devil (cf. 1 John 3:8).

Then it makes it even more clear with 1 John 3:15. It says he that hates his brother is like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So the sin of hating your brother is enough to not have eternal life abiding in you. The Scriptures are very plain and clear on this matter here. There is no OSAS or a belief that says "Sin cannot separate you from God."

This is simply not true. It is both. Most (and not all) new believers are motivated out of both fear and in love to obey God. However, the new believer does not have perfect love yet because they have not learned to perfectly love in the way that Jesus tells them to love yet. For Jesus say if you love me, keep my commandments. But when a new believer first comes to Christ, they will have that joy of being saved and in knowing His love (if they repented of their sins). They will be grateful for the love of what Christ has done for them and they will want to love the Lord in return (By what He has done for them). For they know that if they sin, they can confess their sins to Him and be forgiven, not as a means as a license to sin, but as a way of overcoming sin (with the Lord's help).

Back in 1992, I remember when I first got saved when I accepted Christ. I felt the joy, peace, and love of God. I wanted to love Christ in return so much for the love He had given to me. But that did not mean I shouldn't also fear Him, though. Job 28:28 says "the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding." Have you departed from evil and then gained understanding as a result?

Scripture says, ""And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him [i.e. Christ] who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [i.e. the Lake of Fire]." (Matthew 10:28 WEY).

Note: Brackets in blue are my commentaries to the text.

Anyways, we are told by Jesus from this verse to fear Him (and not those who kill the body) because he has the power to destroy both our souls and our bodies into the Lake of Fire (whereby one's soul and body will experience some kind of pain (and possible duration of punishment) with both the soul and body being utterly destroyed or erased from existence by it's flames). Jesus is speaking to believers here because he says we are not to fear those who can kill the body. Those who kill the body are those individuals of this world and not of God's Kingdom.

Actually it is not just about adoption, but about it is about whether or not they are dead or alive. For we see the prodigal son was considered dead to the father when he was prodigal because when he returned home his father said that he was was once dead and is now alive again. This is parable is speaking in spiritual terms of course. Scripture also says the children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). If you think this was just talking about Israel exclusively, then you need to read Romans 11:22 that says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Verse 21 says, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:21). Meaning, if God did not spare Israel, take heed that He also spare not you (i.e. the Gentiles). The Jews were cut off because of unbelief. Granted, they will repent as a nation in the future sometime shortly before Christ's return. But the point is that Gentile believers can be cut off by not believing the Scriptures that says that one cannot abide in those sins that lead unto the second death (See Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

For example: Is a dead son still a part of your living family? Surely not. No family keeps their dead son hanging around. They do not eat with a dead son at the dinner table or play basket ball with their dead son. Only sons who are alive can participate in family events.

The Bible says that Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all that offend (sin) and which do iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire. For it is written,

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " (Matthew 13:41-42).

Also, 1 John 2:29 says,
"ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Meaning, this is how we identify the one who is truly born of God.
For again, 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Believers who have contempt for other believers who strive to focus on obeying God's Commands means that there is a serious problem going on. They are seeking to establish their own righteousness and not the righteousness put forth by God's Commands.

Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

No, not everything is done out of love for Him in the OSAS belief because they teach that you can sin and still be saved. Sinning or saying that you are going to sin at some future date (because you cannot help but to sin) is not done out of love for Him. So this would not be true. You are not doing everything out of love for Him if you are also sinning. This is why Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). But you really do not believe those words because you think you can break His commandments and still love Him. Yet, Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments.

Again, in most cases, Christians are motivated by both fear and love in the beginning. In time, when they perfect their walk with God in this life, "perfect loves casts out fear" (1 John 4:18). You cannot be made perfect in love if you are not keeping Christ's commandments. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

Perfect love. Not just ... "love." There is a difference between love and perfect love. New believers can both love and fear in their walk with God. They fear God in the sense that they will repent of their sins (i.e. they will confess and forsake sin) as a result of their destruction in hell, and they love God because Jesus died upon the cross to save them. They are grateful. To say Non-OSAS believers are not grateful is just a false accusation that is not true.

You are just thinking things that are outside of Scripture. You are taking one verse out of context to believe what you want to see.

But the context of 1 John 4:18 says this,

1 John 4:20
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

So the context is in righteous living and not in what you suggest (that cannot be found within the text).

Actually, babies being saved proves that OSAS is false. Babies are unaware of any of God's laws so as to sin. While sin was imputed to them by Adam, Jesus Christ had reversed the curse. Thru Jesus, everyone can be made alive. Seeing babies cannot sin and they are innocent, Jesus saves them automatically. Yet, when they grow up and fall into sin, they are separated from God and they need to repent of their sins and be spiritually born again to be saved again. Sin is what separated that person from God. Repentance is what restores not only fellowship but salvation, as well.

So you believe that everyone is saved then since the time they were a baby?
Surely not. A baby grows up into an adult whereby they sin. This sin separates them between God. They need to repent and get their hearts right with the Lord.

...

Hi Jason,

thanks for taking the time to address my points specifically. You make some very strong arguments, especially with regards to Romans 11:21. I will prayerfully ruminate on all your points.

I do want say that when I consider any interpretation, I try to do it objectively. My method is this:
1. Assume the interpretation or presupposition is true
2. Try to disprove the interpretation or presupposition or find any holes with it from a point of view that no other interpretation is true
3. If fail at #2, then interpretation must be true.

Most people do not do point #1 in a discussion, so what happens is a big argument where no-one is willing to budge from their presupposition/point-of-view and it ends up in a stalemate. However, the problem with my approach is that sometimes people think you're trying to argue with them (by trying to find holes in the presupposition), when in fact it's part of the process of scientific exploration and examination.

Since you took the time to address what I felt were holes in the "conditional salvation" argument in a very detailed manner, I feel that has made your argument very strong. I will definitely take the time to really meditate on this, and I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I might want to add though, that (and this doesn't in any way detract from whether the "conditional salvation" POV is true or false) "conditional salvation" does lead to a very low rate of salvation, and I do wonder why God would devise a method of salvation that would result in such poor rates of success (at least in the first world). The greatest evil in the first world is the vast amount of time and money spent on entertainment. Even watching a Marvel super-hero movie and enjoying it will lead to all sorts of sin, and will make it very difficult to live a righteous life; watching movies, reading fiction books - imagining situations which are sinful will prevent success in living a righteous life - and watching movies/reading fiction is what most Christians in the first world consider quite normal. To live a righteous life necessitates an abandonment of first-world entertainment.

supescritter · Jan 17, 2017

I'd like to address OSAS believers:

I have spent most of my time appearing to argue against "conditional salvation", because (see previous post) my method of examination is to explore whether it is true. I do not do the same for OSAS, because I believed in it (right now, I am not sure whether OSAS is true).

Jason has been patient in addressing arguments from many people, but we need to take the time to only address what he is trying to say. I notice a lot of posts wasting time on semantics or points of view that have nothing to do with Jason's key message. We need to really try to understand why he believes what he believes, because we all must seek the truth. What if Jason's POV is the true interpretation?

I am struggling with it, because I think that for some verses, Jason has made some very strong arguments (in particular Romans 11:21) that stand alone, and are very difficult to argue away as meaning something else. It IS true that some verses are ALSO very difficult to interpret to mean anything other than "once saved always saved" - but that could be because I am interpreting it from an incorrect presupposition. That is my next step in this journey - to examine if alternative interpretations for key verses that imply OSAS could be interpreted another way (eg. Eph 2:8-9). I am going to do the reverse of what I've been trying to do so far - I will try to poke holes in OSAS interpretation to see if it lives up to scrutiny from an objective standpoint.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2017

supescritter said:
Hi Jason,

thanks for taking the time to address my points specifically. You make some very strong arguments, especially with regards to Romans 11:21. I will prayerfully ruminate on all your points.

I do want say that when I consider any interpretation, I try to do it objectively. My method is this:
1. Assume the interpretation or presupposition is true
2. Try to disprove the interpretation or presupposition or find any holes with it from a point of view that no other interpretation is true
3. If fail at #2, then interpretation must be true.

Most people do not do point #1 in a discussion, so what happens is a big argument where no-one is willing to budge from their presupposition/point-of-view and it ends up in a stalemate. However, the problem with my approach is that sometimes people think you're trying to argue with them (by trying to find holes in the presupposition), when in fact it's part of the process of scientific exploration and examination.

I would add #3 to that. Ask God to show you the truth on this matter (Jeremiah 33:3). In other words, 333 is like God's telephone number. When you call upon Him to truly and honestly resolve this matter with a pure heart, He will reveal the truth to you (whereby it will not even be a question for you).

Also, I would add a #4, too. Looking to see if a teaching or truth can be made into a real world example (i.e. parable) is also important. Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples (parables) many times. Even the Canaanite woman had a made a parable of her own (expounding upon Jesus's parable) and Jesus commended her for faith in doing so. In my many discussions on different Christian forums over the years in regards to OSAS, I have yet for anyone to make a real world example explaining the goodness or morality behind OSAS.

Superscritter said:
Since you took the time to address what I felt were holes in the "conditional salvation" argument in a very detailed manner, I feel that has made your argument very strong. I will definitely take the time to really meditate on this, and I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Thank you; And you are most welcome.

Superscritter said:
I might want to add though, that (and this doesn't in any way detract from whether the "conditional salvation" POV is true or false) "conditional salvation" does lead to a very low rate of salvation, and I do wonder why God would devise a method of salvation that would result in such poor rates of success (at least in the first world).

The Scriptures say narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Most people really do not want to follow Jesus because they prefer being their own lords and in holding on to the things that they like in this world (including sin).

Superscritter said:
The greatest evil in the first world is the vast amount of time and money spent on entertainment. Even watching a Marvel super-hero movie and enjoying it will lead to all sorts of sin, and will make it very difficult to live a righteous life; watching movies, reading fiction books - imagining situations which are sinful will prevent success in living a righteous life - and watching movies/reading fiction is what most Christians in the first world consider quite normal. To live a righteous life necessitates an abandonment of first-world entertainment.

1 John 2:15 says,
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

I was actually a huge Marvel comics fan growing up as a kid. In fact, I used to really enjoy watching Marvel films in the past alot. I used to get a high off of watching them. I took a pride in owning shirts and bag tags that were of my favorite Marvel characters. But God led me one day to put secular (non-Christian) movies and things out of my life in my dedication to Christ. For today, these movies have gotten worse. The Deadpool movie (which I have not watched) glorifies profanity (bad language) sex, and unnecessary violence. Doctor Strange is a sorcerer who is supposed to be a good guy and yet the Bible condemns sorcery or witchcraft. Captain America who is a Protestant Christian according to the comics is not even going to be Captain America anymore in future films. So even in the fictional universe within the films itself, they are tearing down Christianity and or any resemblance of it.

...

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