Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

Are we talking obedience to Jesus Christ or someones doctrine of the second death? Jesus said they that overcome shall not be hurt of the second death, it has no power over such

From St. Hesychios the Priest (The Philokalia Vol. 1; Faber and Faber pg. 183):

"Each hour of every day we should note and weigh our actions and in the evening we should do what we can to free ourselves from the burden of them by means of repentance ? if, that is, we wish, with Christ's help, to overcome wickedness."

From St. John of Kronstadt (My Life in Christ; Holy Trinity Monastery pgs. 505-506):

"'If he trespass against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to you, saying, I repent; you shall forgive him' (Lk. 17:4). As the Searcher of hearts, the Lord knows that men are liable to very frequent trespass, and that, having fallen, they often rise up again; therefore He has given us the commandment to frequently forgive trespasses, and He Himself is the first to fulfill His holy word. As soon as you say from your whole heart, 'I repent,' you will be immediately forgiven."

From St. Symeon the New Theologian (The Philokalia Vol. 4; Faber and Faber pg. 40):

"Through repentance the filth of our foul actions is washed away. After this, we participate in the Holy Spirit, not automatically, but according to the faith, humility and inner disposition of the repentance in which our whole soul is engaged? For this reason it is good to repent each day... "

From St. Gregory Palamas (The Philokalia Vol. 4; Faber and Faber pg. 329):

"... Christ said, 'Whoever shall say to his brother "You fool" shall be guilty enough to go to the hell of fire' (Mt. 5:22). If, then, you can eradicate this evil, calling down upon your soul the benediction of gentleness, then glorify Christ, the teacher and ministrant of every virtue, without whom, as we have been taught, we can do nothing good. But if you are unable to bridle your temper, censure yourself whenever you lose it, and repent before God and before anyone to whom you have spoken or have acted evilly. If you repent at the inception of sin you will not commit the sin itself; but if you feel no pang in committing minor offenses you will through them fall into major transgressions."

sculleywr said:

If the Bible says none are righteous, then you are not righteous, I am not righteous, and guess what, the mods, admins and founders of this website are not righteous. It does not say that there is none righteous, EXCEPT GIVER.

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Except Lot. (2 Peter 2:7-8)

And Abel. (Hebrews 11:4)

And Noah. (Genesis 7:1)

And Cornelius the Centurion. (Acts 10:22)

And Joseph of Arimathea. (Luke 23:50)

And John the Baptist. (Mark 6:20)

And Simeon. (Luke 2:25)

And Job. (Job 1:8)

And Joseph (Matthew 1:19)

And all the prophets. (Matthew 23:35)

And, apparently, a bunch of other people. (Matthew 13:17)

seeingeyes said:

Except Lot. (2 Peter 2:7-8)

And Abel. (Hebrews 11:4)

And Noah. (Genesis 7:1)

And Cornelius the Centurion. (Acts 10:22)

And Joseph of Arimathea. (Luke 23:50)

And John the Baptist. (Mark 6:20)

And Simeon. (Luke 2:25)

And Job. (Job 1:8)

And Joseph (Matthew 1:19)

And all the prophets. (Matthew 23:35)

And, apparently, a bunch of other people. (Matthew 13:17)

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to explain the definition used here, as there are multiple definitions, let us limit this to the definition of complete righteousness, or perfection without sin. The only person to be that righteous is Christ.

sculleywr said:

to explain the definition used here, as there are multiple definitions, let us limit this to the definition of complete righteousness, or perfection without sin. The only person to be that righteous is Christ.

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Seems like a bit of hair-splitting, which is really what this whole thread consists of.

"Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward."(Matthew 10:4)

Insistence on our own unrighteousness is just as toxic as insistence on our own righteousness. If we seek first His righteousness, all the rest will be added.

God bless

Whats interesting is it says...

Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

And yet we hear Daniel say...

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel

Fireinfolding said:

Are we talking obedience to Jesus Christ or someones doctrine of the second death? Jesus said they that overcome shall not be hurt of the second death, it has no power over such

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The following are some of the Words Jesus told us to obey.

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”


(Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”
(John 5:14) “After a while Jesus met him in the Temple and said: ‘Now you are well again, be sure not to sin any more, or something worse may happen to you’.”

(John 6:53-55) “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? They said. Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day.”


(John 14:26) “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

Im not against obedience to Jesus Christ, Paul even says our obedience is fulfilled, and the grace he was given was for the obedience to the faith

There are two kinds of righteousness spoken of in scripture, righteousness before men and righteousness before God. Before men, righteousness is gauged by attitudes and behaviors. This is the righteousness spoken of in James, and is the righteousness of those you listed in your post, seeingeyes. Righteousness before God is perfect righteousness, which we are unable to achieve, attain or merit. This is the perfect righteousness of Christ, imputed to us by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, an alien righteousness that is not ours but Christ's.

seeingeyes said:

Seems like a bit of hair-splitting, which is really what this whole thread consists of.

"Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward."(Matthew 10:4)

Insistence on our own unrighteousness is just as toxic as insistence on our own righteousness. If we seek first His righteousness, all the rest will be added.

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The 'hook' so to speak of scriptures is that it places two diametrically opposed positions, that of Complete Perfection in Light (a poor summary) next to total and utter darkness and eternal pain.

They are in effect the two most extremes of thought/comprehensions.

Then, to top it off, it places same within us.

The text itself is designed, purposefully, to be confusing or conflicting without taking the whole thing personally.

And the difficulty is that believers tend to want to gravitate only to one side of the ledgers, while others can deal with the reality of the darker issues.

Thereby rifts become realities. And that too is by Grand Design.

Quite fascinating, really.

I don't know how many believers have read these Words of Jesus and feared to the core of their being:

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

On the surface one should rightfully fear this matter and therefore almost every believer not only does, but has to, for their own sanity, reject that statement as being applicable to them.

And then you get people like Giver who claims to be sinless, because in his 'logical mind' that is the requirement to avoid hearing those Words. So he has to, in his own mind, consider himself sinless OR he will be damned forever in hell's torture.

And others who want to be 'truthful' and recognize the realities that we 'all' have sin and have sinned might also see the fact of actually hearing those Words then because they COMMIT INIQUITY.

There are more intelligent ways to see these things and BE HONEST.

I can hear that same scripture, [which I heard in the past as Giver does today] and HEAR LIFE.

The Word will show a believer how to get there if one is HONEST before God.

One can confess to being a sinner all the day and as you say...also

"Insistence on our own unrighteousness is just as toxic"

In the final analysis thee only way to really pass any scripture tests is to recognize that all of it is applicable to us and to still FIND LIFE therein.

That is a genuine challenge.

God is Truly A Genius beyond comprehensions. The Word is quite technically marvelous in it's accuracy about the human condition. Especially when the factors of the 'not human' are metered into the equations.

s

Giver said:

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

People need to understand that this writing was addressed to those who had had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These people were baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Spirit.

The verse very clearly tells them that one who deliberately sins is insulting the Spirit of Grace. One can’t insult the Holy Spirit if he or she has not been given the Holy Spirit.

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This writing, just as other new testament epistles as well, was written to believers in churches, where in their assembly it was the only place they would hear it, and just as we know it is pretty much always some who are not true believers creep in. This was warning all to make sure of their belief, and to believers the if of what can happen with a rejection off God"s grace, which is what happens among those who are not true believers. This understanding is correct with believing the verses already shown for our assurance. But if there is deliberate sin to worry about, this applies to condemning others.

Fireinfolding said:

Im not against obedience to Jesus Christ, Paul even says our obedience is fulfilled, and the grace he was given was for the obedience to the faith

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Pontius Pilate asked Jesus:

John 18:38
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Did Jesus even bother to respond?

no

s

seeingeyes said:

Seems like a bit of hair-splitting, which is really what this whole thread consists of.

"Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward."(Matthew 10:4)

Insistence on our own unrighteousness is just as toxic as insistence on our own righteousness. If we seek first His righteousness, all the rest will be added.

God bless

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Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Can we attain the perfect sinless righteousness of Christ? maybe. Should we ever claim, as Giver has, to have attained such righteousness? never. But like Paul, we should come before Him saying this:


--excerpted from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom.

- St. Basil of Caesarea


--St. John Climacus

Fred V B said:

This writing, just as other new testament epistles as well, was written to believers in churches, where in their assembly it was the only place they would hear it, and just as we know it is pretty much always some who are not true believers creep in. This was warning all to make sure of their belief, and to believers the if of what can happen with a rejection off God"s grace, which is what happens among those who are not true believers. This understanding is correct with believing the verses already shown for our assurance. But if there is deliberate sin to worry about, this applies to condemning others.

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I am not sure of what you are trying to point out.

My witness is that Jesus taught me that a Christian does not sin. Also God has protected me from Satan/sin for many years.

Jesus has told me to give a word to people who say they are Christians.

I am doing what Jesus told me to do, and am not judging anyone. Jesus will judge.

People know if they sin or not. People who are led by the Holy Spirit/Jesus will never be led into sin. Those led by the Holy Spirit will be given the grace and guidance to never sin again.

But there are people who have the Holy Spirit and walk in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit but still do not live the whole Word of God. Jesus spoke about such people.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

allykelly07 said:

I have read through the whole chapter. It says if anyone, falls away from the faith, there is no sacrifice for sins left, only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire. What do you think that means? It says no sacrifice for sins is left, and they can't be brought back to repentance. It doesn't get much clearer than that. It doesn't say their chastisement will be great, it says that they will have a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire..

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The Hebrews 6 warning holds to 3-4 interpretations
1.) the non-believer view, those who fall way are not real believers, they may profess Christianity but are/were never really saved.
2) The Arminian view, believers who fall away and can never be saved again
3.) "1st century" view: Jewish believers who could fall away before the destruction of the temple, according to this view the falling away could not be repeated because of the temple was destroyed

4.) "Spiritual deception" view; those who fall away are believers who enter such a state of deception other believers cannot restore them to repentance (not salvation) that they enter an arena of God's personal chastisement.

Now let's look at what it says...4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

If we take a look at the 5 fold description in verses 4-5 one would have to admit they are believers, looking at verse 6 we see their spiritual defection crucifies Christ again disgraces Christ and that they would be unable to be RENEWED to repentance...

Verse 6 is critical in properly interpreting this difficult passage....

6 if they fall away, TO RENEW THEM again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This verse simply does not say we lose our salvation it says essentially if a believer is complacent about his relationship with Christ he will become spiritually insensitive to God see Heb 5:12, and begin to regress...Continuing in this path he will develop a lack of discernment 5:14, and even begin to question basic doctrine 6:1-2, spiritual growth is God's work 6:3, and if we think we can turn it on and off we are dreadfully wrong...Continuing yourself in a path of spiritual deception will eventually get you to a place no committed Christian can convince you your wrong.
God will eventually chasten the believer even to the point of removing everything for which he has worked.
Hebrews 6: 7-8 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

squint said:

Pontius Pilate asked Jesus:

John 18:38
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Did Jesus even bother to respond?

no

s

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He was looking at Him, who fulfilled the scripture

Same as with Herod

Luke 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

And of Isaiah (the eunuch was reading)

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?


Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

'Believers' who seek to eternally kill or eternally burn other believers alive in fire are just not my favorite kind of people.

That mindset was in the same people who tossed virgins in volcanoes, cut the hearts out of other people at the top of big stone structures, massacred vast amounts of the population in wars, boiled people in oil, burned them in piles of wood while they were still alive at the stake and even killed God Himself in the flesh.

That mindset is nothing less than a reflection of the desire to kill and murder.

Yet believers do it and believe it with a straight face. They don't even think twice about it.

The human heart is in fact thee sickest thing on earth in this regards.

A woeful ill.

It is impossible to dress it up for anything other than what it is.

In the Name of God, of course! Pomp and circumstance too!

s

Fireinfolding said:

He was looking at Him, who fulfilled the scripture

Same as with Herod

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There is a principle involved with these matters. It is also shown here:

Luke 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

squint said:

There is a principle involved with these matters. It is also shown here:

Luke 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

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Ya keep changing the subject here bro lol

Who is to judge matters between the brethren pertaining to the things of this world?

And Who is mediator between God and man?

Fireinfolding said:

Ya keep changing the subject here bro lol

Who is to judge matters between the brethren pertaining to the things of this world?

And Who is mediator between God and man?

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There are people who get their questions answered and there are MORE who do not. Why do you think that is?

There are strangers that Jesus doesn't know nor does He want to know them.

It is possible to see these things and still not condemn other believers to eternal death or eternal dismemberment.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...tbnh=199&tbnw=128&start=0&ndsp=16&tx=28&ty=18Truth is much stranger than fiction



s