Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

motherprayer · Jan 29, 2013

sculleywr said:
If you link me to it, I will consider. I want to talk to my priest first. It's a respect for the leadership of the Priesthood that causes us to ask their blessing on our works for the Church.

Also, the page doesn't appear to be showing up :/

Absolutely! I would very much appreciate having someone with an Orthodox POV there, if it is okay.

Try this:

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=493101010728443&refid=46&_rdr#125548487616278

The page is called Christian advice. There are 20 likes so far, I haven't promoted it too much, because I want to have at least two more people to admin before I start getting questions, to ensure people get good, Scriptural answers.

Rick Otto · Jan 29, 2013

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Giver, there is no way to parse this into the past tense, brother. I do admire your persistent idealism, tho. I wouldn't want to be mistaken for someone who advocates sinning just because I believe OSAS is true

sculleywr · Jan 29, 2013

Going Merry said:
I guess people believed in doubtful things in the past too. But we were talking about the promise of the holy spirit which is talked about everywhere in the bible. Why assume he is talking about chrisimation?

Perhaps because that was the context in which he was writing, a church that believed that the Chrismation is the "Seal and the Gift of the Holy Spirit".

Father Michael J. Buben

Holy Chrismation is a Sacrament in which the baptized believer, being anointed with Holy Chrism on certain parts of the body, in the name of the Holy Spirit, receives the gifts of the Holy Spirit for growth and strength in spiritual life. (Philarets Catechism)

This sacrament is administered immediately after baptism and like baptism cannot be administered twice to the same soul. Baptism cleans us from the pollution of original sin and makes us a member of the grace-giving living Orthodox Church of Christ. Chrismation nourishes and strengthens the baptised in the spiritual life. Just as a child needs the guidance of its parents, so a newly baptised soul receives the grace and guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons why Chrismation has never been performed separately in the Orthodox Church.

Our Lord and Savior instituted this Sacrament when at the Jerusalem Temple He said: If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. He that believeth in me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters etc., etc. (John 7, 37-38). St. John explains this text as forecasting the Holy Spirit which believers would receive.

After the Apostles were strengthened with the power from above, they transferred gifts of this power to all who were baptized and put on Christ. As an example let us read the following texts from the book of Acts. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost. (For as yet He was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (8, 14-17)

When the Apostles could not be at all places to lay hands on the growing number of Christians as thousands began to accept Christianity, they instituted the use of Holy Chrism. Holy Chrism could easily be distributed to the bishops and priests in the settlements where they served. Only bishops received the power to make Chrism as it was needed, and priests used it only in the absence of the bishop, but always in the bishops name as centuries passed. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (I John 2, 20). St. John in his first epistle further explains the inward grace which anointing with Chrism brings; and the anointing which you have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie: and event it hath taught you, abide therein. (27)

St. Paul also wrote about Holy Chrismation when he said: Now He which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. (2 Cor.1,21-22).

St. Paul in this text says anointing with Holy Chrism establishes us in Christ, and it is from here that the Church takes its formula for this Sacrament: The Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

The anointing of the forehead signifies the sanctification of the mind, or thoughts.
The anointing of the chest signifies the sanctification of the heart, or desires.
The anointing of the eyes, ears, lips signifies the sanctification of the senses.
The anointing of the hands and feet signifies their sanctification to good works and the walk in the way of His commandments.

Orthodox brothers and sisters Through the Sacrament of Holy Chrismation you were Confirmed in the Orthodox Faith. You received the Holy Spirit and grace-giving gifts, without which it would have been impossible for you to have spiritual growth.

Does the Sacrament glow in your heart or has it dimmed like the last ember in the fireplace? Stir up the Gift of God! Do not dim the gifts of the Holy Spirit nor contradict their influence by vain thoughts and desires. Help thy neighbor. Make use of prayer and fasting. Follow His commandments.

Specific parts of your body were sealed with Chrism, that all your strength and abilities might be given to the service of God. For ye were bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods. (1 Cor. 6, 20)

Going Merry · Jan 29, 2013

I don't understand lol

Giver · Jan 29, 2013

Rick Otto said:
(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to bewithout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Giver, there is no way to parse this into the past tense, brother. I do admire your persistent idealism, tho. I wouldn't want to be mistaken for someone who advocates sinning just because I believe OSAS is true

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray to live a Read this, you need to see John was saying: If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar. Cant you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

holy life is to be holy just as He is holy to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(Hebrews 6: 4) As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.

sculleywr · Jan 29, 2013

Going Merry said:
I don't understand lol

the Church has referred to Chrismation as the Gift and seal of the Spirit since Pentecost of AD 33. That is what is said during the services.

sculleywr · Jan 29, 2013

Giver said:
You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray to live a Read this, you need to see John was saying: If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar. Cant you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

holy life is to be holy just as He is holy to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(Hebrews 6: 4) As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.

Let me make it really big.

If any man claim that he has no sin...

What part of present tense do you not understand? Please, go on and take a Greek class, then you will understand. Present tense means if you say you have no sin, CURRENTLY, then you lie.

Going Merry · Jan 29, 2013

sculleywr said:
Let me make it really big.

If any man claim that he has no sin...

What part of present tense do you not understand? Please, go on and take a Greek class, then you will understand. Present tense means if you say you have no sin, CURRENTLY, then you lie.

The book of 1 John though was talking to gnostics. And we should consider it well when reading that book. Also it is in present tense but so what?

The verses in question are this:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Personally when I used to read 1 John I would think "it says if we have no sin we are a liar" so that settled it, I would never confess to being without sin. The next verse says if you confess your sins you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. In the past I relied on prayers of forgiveness to cleanse any sins I had done, so I interpreted that verse meaning that. Next in verse 10 it says if we have not sinned then we make him a liar... of course all of this is blurry to me.

But now I no longer believe in prayers of forgiveness having any power to cleanse anything. I now rely on faith purely and not prayer like i used to. I also believe that believers are without sin based on the same scriptures in these passages. Plus also the foot washing verses stating a believer is completely clean even though they have to wash their feet (washing feet means to ruminate on the gospel, which is my understand because of my belief of saying praying for forgiveness is worthless) I see the verses all working together not separately. So if you isolate each verse you will get a perverse understanding about it. And it starts saying if we say we have no sin we make him a liar, but then continues and says if we confess our sin we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. It's saying we have to acknowledge our sin to God! The next verse says if we say we have never sinned we make him a liar. But you must refer to the previous verses plainly or that won't make sense. And the last verse that the apostle defines what unrighteousness is, he says it is sin. I apply this to verse 9 when he says to cleanse from all unrighteousness. Logically saying to empty a glass of all of its content leaves nothing left. So if he cleanses you of all your SIN then you have none left. For simply acknowledging and confessing your sin. These verses empower me personally in my belief of being without sin. I see giver also being empowered by them. You can't use these against either of us to get your point across.

Giver · Jan 30, 2013

sculleywr said:
Let me make it really big.

If any man claim that he has no sin...

What part of present tense do you not understand? Please, go on and take a Greek class, then you will understand. Present tense means if you say you have no sin, CURRENTLY, then you lie.

What part of the following dont you understand?

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work
(1 John 5:18) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him

(1 John 3:9) No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------

squint · Jan 30, 2013

sculleywr said:
Let me make it really big.

If any man claim that he has no sin...

What part of present tense do you not understand? Please, go on and take a Greek class, then you will understand. Present tense means if you say you have no sin, CURRENTLY, then you lie.

yeah, well, sinless people don't listen very well.

funny how that works isn't it?

Giver · Jan 30, 2013

squint said:
yeah, well, sinless people don't listen very well.

funny how that works isn't it?

John says people who sin are of the devil. Why would a holy person ever want to listen to the devil?

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work

squint · Jan 30, 2013

Giver said:
John says people who sin are of the devil. Why would a holy person ever want to listen to the devil?

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work

Why would any credible believer say they are sinless and simultaneously seek to toss other believers into eternal torture in fire or eternal death for 'a sin?'

Yet that is what is in your head.

I often wonder what is under my neighbors roofs, but then again I really don't want to know.

s

sculleywr · Jan 30, 2013

Giver said:
What part of the following dont you understand?

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work
(1 John 5:18) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him

(1 John 3:9) No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------

What of "There is none righteous, no not one." I think that includes you. In fact, I don't just think it. You are not righteous. You are a man, just like me. And it is only arrogance which causes a man to think himself sinless. Arrogance is a sin. Therefore, I tell you that the Scripture commands you to repent.

In spite of our sinfulness, in spite of the darkness surrounding our souls, the Grace of the Holy Spirit, conferred by baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, still shines in our hearts with the inextinguishable light of Christ ... and when the sinner turns to the way of repentance the light smooths away every trace of the sins committed, clothing the former sinner in the garments of incorruption, spun of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is this acquisition of the Holy Spirit about which I have been speaking.

St. Seraphim of Sarov

"He who busies himself with the sins of others, or judges his brother on suspicion, has not yet even begun to repent or to examine himself so as to discover his own sins..."

St. Maximos the Confessor (Third Century on Love no. 55)

"Fire and water do not mix, neither can you mix judgment of others with the desire to repent. If a man commits a sin before you at the very moment of his death, pass no judgment, because the judgment of God is hidden from men. It has happened that men have sinned greatly in the open but have done greater deeds in secret, so that those who would disparage them have been fooled, with smoke instead of sunlight in their eyes."

St. John Climacus

A true Christian is made by faith and love toward Christ. Our sins do not in the least hinder our Christianity, according to the word of the Savior Himself. He deigned to say: not the righteous have I come to call, but sinners to salvation; there is more joy in heaven over one who repents than over ninety righteous ones. Likewise concerning the sinful woman who touched His feet, He deigned to say to the Pharisee Simon: to one who has love, a great debt is forgiven, but from one who has no love, even a small debt will be demanded. From these judgments a Christian should bring himself to hope and joy, and not in the least accept an inflicted despair. Here one needs the shield of faith.

Letters of St. Herman of Alaska

A soldier asked Abba Mius if God accepted repentance. After the old man had taught him many things he said, 'Tell me, my dear, if your cloak is torn, do you throw it away?' He replied, 'No, I mend it and use it again.' The old man said to him, 'If you are so careful about your cloak, will not God be equally careful about His creature?'

Abba Mius

From St. Symeon the New Theologian (The Philokalia Vol. 4; Faber and Faber pg. 40):

"Through repentance the filth of our foul actions is washed away. After this, we participate in the Holy Spirit, not automatically, but according to the faith, humility and inner disposition of the repentance in which our soul is engaged. For this reason it is good to repent each day as the act of repentance is unending."

Giver · Jan 30, 2013

squint said:
Why would any credible believer say they are sinless and simultaneously seek to toss other believers into eternal torture in fire or eternal death for 'a sin?'

Yet that is what is in your head.

I often wonder what is under my neighbors roofs, but then again I really don't want to know.

s

If one believes in Jesus then he or she will be obedient to him.

Satan believes in Jesus, his problem is he did not want to be obedient.

So then what is a true believer in Jesus?

crimsonleaf · Jan 30, 2013

Giver said:
What part of the following dont you understand?

(1 John 1: 8-10) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Don't confuse forgiveness and being declared righteous with being made unable to sin. If I have noisy neighbours I can forgive them whether they continue to make a noise or not. God hates sin but forgives us when we do if we have faith in Him and and we lose the habitual and ongoing sin in our lives.

Giver said:

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work

Click to expand...

And faith in Christ undoes the Devil's work.

(1 John 5:18) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him

[/quote]Once again, a reference to habitual and continual sinning in the life of a believer - not the occasional and often uncontrolled sin (as an immediately regretted lustful thought might be).

Giver said:
(1 John 3:9) No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because Gods seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

I like to use the ESV, which comes closest to the original Greek (IMO) and which says:

(1Jn 3:9) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Note the term "makes a practice of sinning" in contrast to your translation. The whole passage is a bout striving for perfection, and is an encouragement by John, not a universal condemnation of those who believe but still sin occasionally.

Giver said:

(Hebrews 10:26-31) If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------

Click to expand...

Again, a reference to the practice of deliberately sinning. Not eternal condemnation for a single sin.

Those who advocate that only a perfectly sinless person is saved is undermining the message of God, as none can attain total sinlessness. If you, Giver, claim total sinlessness, then " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Giver · Jan 30, 2013

sculleywr said:
What of "There is none righteous, no not one." I think that includes you. In fact, I don't just think it. You are not righteous. You are a man, just like me. And it is only arrogance which causes a man to think himself sinless. Arrogance is a sin. Therefore, I tell you that the Scripture commands you to repent.

In spite of our sinfulness, in spite of the darkness surrounding our souls, the Grace of the Holy Spirit, conferred by baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, still shines in our hearts with the inextinguishable light of Christ ... and when the sinner turns to the way of repentance the light smooths away every trace of the sins committed, clothing the former sinner in the garments of incorruption, spun of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is this acquisition of the Holy Spirit about which I have been speaking.

St. Seraphim of Sarov

"He who busies himself with the sins of others, or judges his brother on suspicion, has not yet even begun to repent or to examine himself so as to discover his own sins..."

St. Maximos the Confessor (Third Century on Love no. 55)

"Fire and water do not mix, neither can you mix judgment of others with the desire to repent. If a man commits a sin before you at the very moment of his death, pass no judgment, because the judgment of God is hidden from men. It has happened that men have sinned greatly in the open but have done greater deeds in secret, so that those who would disparage them have been fooled, with smoke instead of sunlight in their eyes."

St. John Climacus

A true Christian is made by faith and love toward Christ. Our sins do not in the least hinder our Christianity, according to the word of the Savior Himself. He deigned to say: not the righteous have I come to call, but sinners to salvation; there is more joy in heaven over one who repents than over ninety righteous ones. Likewise concerning the sinful woman who touched His feet, He deigned to say to the Pharisee Simon: to one who has love, a great debt is forgiven, but from one who has no love, even a small debt will be demanded. From these judgments a Christian should bring himself to hope and joy, and not in the least accept an inflicted despair. Here one needs the shield of faith.

Letters of St. Herman of Alaska

A soldier asked Abba Mius if God accepted repentance. After the old man had taught him many things he said, 'Tell me, my dear, if your cloak is torn, do you throw it away?' He replied, 'No, I mend it and use it again.' The old man said to him, 'If you are so careful about your cloak, will not God be equally careful about His creature?'

Abba Mius

From St. Symeon the New Theologian (The Philokalia Vol. 4; Faber and Faber pg. 40):

"Through repentance the filth of our foul actions is washed away. After this, we participate in the Holy Spirit, not automatically, but according to the faith, humility and inner disposition of the repentance in which our soul is engaged. For this reason it is good to repent each day as the act of repentance is unending."

What does any of what you posted have to do with what John told us?

You quote an out of context verse, where what was said had nothing to do with people after they received the Holy Spirit, as if it applies to those who walk as Jesus walked.

Then post words from people that are not in the bible, as if it were scripture?

squint · Jan 30, 2013

Giver said:
If one believes in Jesus then he or she will be obedient to him.

Some believers consider being truthful to be part of obedience.

Satan believes in Jesus, his problem is he did not want to be obedient.

Believers who think God in Christ is going to burn them alive forever in fire can come up with some pretty bizarre thoughts can't they?

So then what is a true believer in Jesus?

I'd be considered a liberal in this category. That those who have been led to call upon our Lord, God in Christ, to save them, will be.

Pretty simple. Low threshold.

It does my own heart no good to think God can not.

s

Fireinfolding · Jan 30, 2013

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

It does speak of obedience, which is obeying that form of doctrine delivered, because even Jesus said, why call me Lord Lord and not do as I say, and then goes onto what is a wise man (hearing my words) and doing them. Its obeying through the Spirit

squint · Jan 30, 2013

Jesus told us all that man will live by every Word of God.

How is it we figured out ways to burn other believers [or potentially ourselves] alive forever or eternally kill them?

How did 'live' turn into the opposite?

Heart check.

s

sculleywr · Jan 30, 2013

Giver said:
What does any of what you posted have to do with what John told us?

You quote an out of context verse, where what was said had nothing to do with people after they received the Holy Spirit, as if it applies to those who walk as Jesus walked.

Then post words from people that are not in the bible, as if it were scripture?

You post your own words as if they were Scripture, and the Bible says how many are righteous? None.

If the Bible says none are righteous, then you are not righteous, I am not righteous, and guess what, the mods, admins and founders of this website are not righteous. It does not say that there is none righteous, EXCEPT GIVER.

It says that if any man claims to HAVE (Present tense, present tense, present tense!) no sin, the truth is not in him. Therefore, the truth is NOT in you, for you have claimed to HAVE (Present tense, present tense, present tense!) no sin.

Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

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Orthodox Colitis Survivor

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