Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

Giver said:

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

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Nice. You change the geek to say something it doesn't. It's written in present tense. If you say you have. Not had, not used to have. Have. Try again. Remember to not change the scriptures this time, please. They weren't written by you.

motherprayer said:

I'm a sinner. And I'm saved. Did you ever hear about what actually happens when a person gets baptized?

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I've heard a whole lot of things. I don't even remember the first time because I was an infant (RCC),... & that didn't leave me with a feeling of lasting satisfaction except for ther good intentions of my parents toward me that it spoke of. So I went ahead & let some local charismatics do the job when I was about 35, but the only lasting satisfaction I have from that is the witness of my conscience toward the Lord that it was.
And that is good enough for me.

motherprayer said:

Well, yea. Aw I had a different answer. You're aposta say what lol

What is theosis?

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From the Greek words "theos" (God), and "osis" (state of being like). It means being like God. It is only truly achieved by humility and prayer. A person who has achieved Theosis will never claim to have achieved it, but will, rather, constantly continue to repent of even wrong thought.

Rick Otto said:

I've heard a whole lot of things. I don't even remember the first time because I was an infant (RCC),... & that didn't leave me with a feeling of lasting satisfaction except for ther good intentions of my parents toward me that it spoke of. So I went ahead & let some local charismatics do the job when I was about 35, but the only lasting satisfaction I have from that is the witness of my conscience toward the Lord that it was.
And that is good enough for me.

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Amen. That's because, what happens when you get baptized is this:

You go down a dry sinner, and come up a wet sinner.

Baptism is a showing of faith, it doesn't change one's state. Which is why some are disappointed by the (lack of) effects from the experience. I do understand what you went through

sculleywr said:

From the Greek words "theos" (God), and "osis" (state of being like). It means being like God. It is only truly achieved by humility and prayer. A person who has achieved Theosis will never claim to have achieved it, but will, rather, constantly continue to repent of even wrong thought.

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That's beautiful. I literally never heard that word before. Also a quite profound statement. I find myself repentful always. I don't want to ever get to a place where I believe I'm always right, to be honest. It would seem that my belief would make it harder for me to hear God's voice when He rebukes me.

motherprayer said:

Amen. That's because, what happens when you get baptized is this:

You go down a dry sinner, and come up a wet sinner.

Baptism is a showing of faith, it doesn't change one's state. Which is why some are disappointed by the (lack of) effects from the experience. I do understand what you went through

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The institution of the Sacrament of Baptism

It was the Lord Jesus who instituted Baptism.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved" (Mark 16:16).
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19).

"Truly. truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The great model of our baptism, then, is the baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan.

The purpose of Holy Baptism

To remove the consequences of the 'original sin'.
To wash away all other sins committed before the time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy.
To unite the person to "The Body of Christ" (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.

sculleywr said:

The institution of the Sacrament of Baptism

It was the Lord Jesus who instituted Baptism.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved" (Mark 16:16).
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19).

"Truly. truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The great model of our baptism, then, is the baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan.

The purpose of Holy Baptism

To remove the consequences of the 'original sin'.
To wash away all other sins committed before the time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy.
To unite the person to "The Body of Christ" (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.

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Let me ask, if baptism is done in infancy and a person falls away, should they be baptized again?

This is one thing I was never sure of.

motherprayer said:

That's beautiful. I literally never heard that word before. Also a quite profound statement. I find myself repentful always. I don't want to ever get to a place where I believe I'm always right, to be honest. It would seem that my belief would make it harder for me to hear God's voice when He rebukes me.

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In reference to the book: Theosis: The True Purpose of Human Life
By Archimandrite George, Abbot of the Holy Monastery of St. Gregorios, Mount Athos

The beauty of this book is its simplicity. In clear and simple terms it states the original purpose of the Christian life—namely Theosis.

Its author Archimandrite George has been the Abbot of St. Gregorios Monastery since 1974. He is well known throughout the Orthodox world both as a theologian and spiritual father. He has written many books and articles on theology and the spiritual life. His works have been translated into many languages.

The idea of Theosis will be unfamiliar to the Western mind, although it is not a new concept to Christianity. When Christ said, “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand,” [1] this is a call to a life of Theosis.

Theosis is personal communion with God “face to face.” [2] To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ’s teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; [3] His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God [4]—a Kingdom not of this world. [5] When Jesus said, “You are gods,” [6] “be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” [7] or “the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father,” [8] this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.

The whole sacrificial tradition of Israel beginning with the sacrificial offering of Isaac reaches fulfillment in Jesus Christ. St. John the Baptist echoing Isaiah says, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes upon Himself the sins of the world.” [9] St. Paul has this in mind when he says, “If you are Christ’s, then you are descendants of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise,” [10] because “those who believe are children of Abraham.” [11] The name Israel, was given to Jacob by God as an expression of his fidelity. Later this name was inherited by his faithful descendants. This train of thought is expounded in the writings of St. Paul, where he blesses the Church as “the Israel of God;” [12] whilst elsewhere he wrestles with and is pained by his fellow Jews denial of their own Messiah, labeling them “Israel according to the flesh.” [13]

That is why, the Church —'God’s very own People,” [14]—is also known as the “New Israel,” the “spiritual Israel,” striving to the Heavenly Kingdom. Those first Christians realised that the Kingdom of God was not simply equated with a Jewish state or a single people, but is intended for all humanity. [15] Through repentance we are all called to the true Exodus —to the New Jerusalem [16] —as Christ said, “Do not think that I am come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” [17]

The Orthodox Church has retained this original message of Christ unchanged. It is for this reason that the Orthodox Church is both the “body of Christ” [18] and the “faithful bride” [19] who has been true to her lover. It is this Sacred Tradition which guarantees our fidelity to Christ’s mission, and it is with this knowledge that He says “and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [20] Christ’s teachings could not be arrived at from the Holy Bible alone; we would simply project our modern concepts onto the early Church. Theosis stems from this tradition in which the early Church, Traditional Christianity, and Orthodoxy are identical. Traditional Christianity gave expression and definition to its Theology through the Church Synods; notable among these being the seven Oecumenical Synods, the Synod of St. Photios of 867 and the Palamite Synods of the fourteenth century. Please note: the Church Synods gave expression and definition to an existent Theology that was fully present within the Church from the day of Pentecost: the same Synods were also responsible for compiling and approving the various books which today are collectively known as the New Testament. The dual task of Orthodox Theology is to define and also to protect from human distortion the teachings of Jesus Christ. As can be seen, Theology is far more than knowledge about God acquired through academic study. Christianity is a living faith, founded on revelation born of the Holy Spirit, [21] giving those counted worthy intimate experience of the Triune God and of spiritual realities. [22] All attempts to understand Christ’s message from a purely rational standpoint will remain partial and incomplete. [23]

We now live in an age where Western civilization lives and acts contrary to its Christian heritage, yet it still believes that it knows about Christ and His Church. The West fails to appreciate that over one thousand years separate it from this tradition. As a result, the West’s perception and understanding of Christ and His Church has become clouded. Although no longer perceived as such, Christ’s crowning achievement was also humanity’s crowning achievement, and this forms a watershed in human history. Christ’s message was so profound and revolutionary, that it can be said that humanity failed to grasp both its magnitude and its simplicity. As this book was originally intended for an Orthodox Greek-speaking audience, there was much common ground between the book and its audience. This translation has attempted to keep the simplicity present in the original, while continuing to convey the central message as faithfully as possible. Little explanation has been added to adapt it to Western thought, as this might misrepresent the true content of the book.

In order to understand Christ’s central teaching, we will have to approach certain key words and concepts in a new way and not according to their current English usage. We will have to look at them with an open mind, as if seeing them for the first time. It will be necessary to go back to basics, and in this way see what Christ and the Way meant to the first Christians. Key biblical words such as “psyche,” “heart,” “repentance,” and “nous,” will have to be looked at as if we are seeing them for the first time. For this reason, it was decided to italicise key words and concepts when they first appear and to provide a glossary* to define them.

Theosis is the Pearl of Great Price alluded to by Christ. [24] It can become a present reality for those who are willing to tread the path, and so it is not exclusively an after-death experience. With Theosis death is transcended. [25] St. Paul alludes to this when he says, “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” [26] Again, while being stoned to death, St. Stephen the first martyr offered himself up to Christ and prayed to God for his persecutors to be forgiven. [27] The Easter chant, “Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down Death by death, and bestowing life to those in the tombs” also bears witness to this.

Christianity is victory over death. So may this small book help us all to strive for that one thing needful, that One thing which cannot be taken from us.



1. Matthew 4:17.
2. Cf. Genesis 32:30.
3. Cf. Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 53; Acts 1:6; 2:16-36; 1 Peter 2:6-8.
4. Mark 1:15.
5. Romans 14:17.
6. John 10:34.
7. Matthew 5:48.
8. Matthew 13:43; cf Exodus 34:29-35; Luke 9:28-36.
9. John 1:29.
10. Galatians 3:29.
11. Galatians 3:7-9.
12. Galatians 6:15-16; also cf. John. 1:11-13; Romans 2:28-29; James 1:1.
13. Romans 9-11; also cf. John. 8:37-40; 10:32-38.
14. 1 Peter 2:9; cf Colossians 2:11.
15. Cf. Matthew 3:7-9; Acts 1:8; 11:1-18; 15:16-17; Galatians 3:14;28.
16. Revelation 21:2-3.
17. Matthew 5:17.
18. Colossians 1:18,24; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13.
19. 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 18:23.
20. Matthew 28:20; cf John. 17:20-22.
21. John 16:13; Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 2:10;13.
22. Cf. Acts 9:3-7.
23. 1 Corinthians 2:9.
24. Matthew 13:45-46.
25. Cf. Mark 9:1; John 4:14; 8:51; 11:25-26; Romans 5:21; 2 Timothy 1:10.
26. Galatians 2:20.
27. Acts 7:59-60.

motherprayer said:

Let me ask, if baptism is done in infancy and a person falls away, should they be baptized again?

This is one thing I was never sure of.

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One Baptism for the Remission of Sins (Cf. Acts)

Thank you. Can I copy and paste what you wrote for my own studies?

I'm finding more and more that certain leanings of mine are toward Orthodox. What you posted above made more sense than most of what I've read in weeks.

Where have you been? Lol honestly though. I remember seeing you way back, but I'm glad to see you now.

sculleywr said:

One Baptism for the Remission of Sins (Cf. Acts)

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That is what I thought.

Baptism for the remission of sins instead of faith?

Going Merry said:

Baptism for the remission of sins instead of faith?

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Was Peter wrong?

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

I Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

motherprayer said:

Thank you. Can I copy and paste what you wrote for my own studies?

I'm finding more and more that certain leanings of mine are toward Orthodox. What you posted above made more sense than most of what I've read in weeks.

Where have you been? Lol honestly though. I remember seeing you way back, but I'm glad to see you now.

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The link for this particular thing is from Theosis: The True Purpose of Human Life

hope it helps I'm on Facebook too. Check out the page "Come and See" https://www.facebook.com/StBasilschild

Do you agree with Ephesians 1:13-14 that says "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

That having the Holy spirit means that we having the holy spirit is a guarantee of the inheritance...

Going Merry said:

Do you agree with Ephesians 1:13-14 that says "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

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Were you aware that the "seal of the Spirit referred to the Early Church's practice of Chrismation? take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVoHZJUjAS4

sculleywr said:

The link for this particular thing is from Theosis: The True Purpose of Human Life

hope it helps I'm on Facebook too. Check out the page "Come and See" https://www.facebook.com/StBasilschild

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Thank you! I liked! Please like my page as well, its in my sig. I'm working on a page for Christian Advice on FB, you may be interested in being an admin?

motherprayer said:

Thank you! I liked! Please like my page as well, its in my sig. I'm working on a page for Christian Advice on FB, you may be interested in being an admin?

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If you link me to it, I will consider. I want to talk to my priest first. It's a respect for the leadership of the Priesthood that causes us to ask their blessing on our works for the Church.

Also, the page doesn't appear to be showing up :/

sculleywr said:

Were you aware that the "seal of the Spirit referred to the Early Church's practice of Chrismation? take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVoHZJUjAS4

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I guess people believed in doubtful things in the past too. But we were talking about the promise of the holy spirit which is talked about everywhere in the bible. Why assume he is talking about chrisimation?

motherprayer said:

Let me ask, if baptism is done in infancy and a person falls away, should they be baptized again?

This is one thing I was never sure of.

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I was baptized as a child, and raised as a Christian.

For many years I committed many sins.

Jesus started teaching me, and I stopped sinning.

Later Jesus told me to go be cleaned. I knew he meant go confess my past sins. I did what he told me to do.

After confessing my past sins, Jesus told me I was clean and he could use me.

Jesus has kept me free from sin/Satan ever sense that time.

One needs to know that to love Jesus one needs to live his whole Word. To be protected by Jesus one needs to be living God’s whole Word.

Read what God called us to live, and see if you are living what Jesus told us to live.