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Once Saved Always Saved? Please Help!!

NEW SONG

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I don't think that we can earn our salvation through our works by any means, it's impossible.
However our works are important to God, in fact Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments" (KJV).

And what does this have to do with carnal, nonspiritual man?

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)
    14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
 
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NEW SONG

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Maybe I should clarify myself. I believe God makes himself known to us and it's only through his grace and his son, our Saviour in which we can be saved.
However, there were conditions placed on our salvation, and we have been given free moral agency to decide whether or not to follow God's law.

"free moral agency to decide whether or not to follow God's law"

Chapter and verse please???


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Fatherwhich hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word draw in the Greek means to be dragged or forced.
 
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Stealth001

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From my understanding there is vast difference between the doctrine OSAS and the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (POTS). OSAS teaches that a person can live any ol' way and make it to Heaven. POTS teaches that the elect of God in Christ Jesus will be drawn into a state of perseverance over sin by the Holy Spirit through God's effectual grace and calling.

Therefore, the original poster illustrates POTS perfectly. Being God's elect, it was the Holy Spirit that contended with him and drew him to repentance and thereby a return to Christ. If one sinks into sin and never returns to Christ, it illustrates that God's effectual grace and calling wasn't active in the individual's life. Clearly they were never regenerated. Thus the issue isn't that they "lost their salvation"... the issue is that they were never truly "born again". They went out from among us because... they were never of us.
 
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Migdala

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Here would be an example of free will. We know that the Bible teaches against murder, but I could still go and commit it (not going to), but I could because of free will.
Another point.....this might stir things up....but.......I don't believe the Bible teaches the sinners prayer.

It doesn't, although every church I've ever gone to believes that you have to go up publicly to accept Jesus. I don't agree. I was sitting at home, said a prayer, and was baptized in the Spirit right there, and everything about me changed in a split second. I started going to church and got baptized a few months later. I believe salvation starts the moment you believe.
 
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ojohn

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Wonder why the LORD told his diciples to go preach baptise and Peter must have benn mislead to belive this also since he preached that on day of pentacost Paul even baptised a few him self quess that only counted for then long time ago now its modren times we just make our own choice cool:cool:few msp typo excuse pls hope get the idea
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"I believe salvation starts the moment you believe."

BINGO!!!!!!

And so it does.

My Roommate led be to the Lord in his bedroom in our apartment on a Wednesday night, and INSTANTLY when I "Believed in faith" - everything changed - and 50 years later it's STILL there!!

I KNOW whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I've committed unto HIM against that day.
 
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NEW SONG

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Here would be an example of free will. We know that the Bible teaches against murder, but I could still go and commit it (not going to), but I could because of free will.
Another point.....this might stir things up....but.......I don't believe the Bible teaches the sinners prayer.
No one never said man does not have a freewill. He jut does not have a freewill towards salvation.
 
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NEW SONG

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"I believe salvation starts the moment you believe."

BINGO!!!!!!

And so it does.

My Roommate led be to the Lord in his bedroom in our apartment on a Wednesday night, and INSTANTLY when I "Believed in faith" - everything changed - and 50 years later it's STILL there!!

I KNOW whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I've committed unto HIM against that day.


Point be how do we believe?

No where is freewill or choice ever mentioned in scripture when it comes to salvation.
 
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JPW93

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No one never said man does not have a freewill. He jut does not have a freewill towards salvation.

What do you mean by this? Do you believe that everyone is going to be saved without a choice (although the choice would be heaven every time), or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :confused:
 
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JPW93

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"I believe salvation starts the moment you believe."

BINGO!!!!!!

And so it does.

Faith is incredibly important and without it we couldn't know God, however salvation is not just dependent on faith. Peter and the apostles were commanded to go and preach baptism for the remission of sins. (Mark 16:16).
With statements like John 3:16 and the like - they're all true of course, they're in the Bible, but it is not a contradiction with baptism, repentance and confession. It would be if it said faith only. (James 2:24.)
 
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NEW SONG

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What do you mean by this? Do you believe that everyone is going to be saved without a choice (although the choice would be heaven every time), or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :confused:

God draws men to salvation which has nothing to do with our choice. It is God's timing and God is not calling the whole world now. Look at the veses I already posted.
 
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NEW SONG

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So if a person WANTS to be saved, yet God is not calling them, then they can't do a thing about it, can they? It's not like they can say "Hey God, I want to be saved today!" and He will just open their heart to believe and receive Jesus.


AMEN

Why would the non spiritual man want anything to do with God's salvation he is carnal, earthy.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)
    14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
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NEW SONG

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Faith is incredibly important and without it we couldn't know God, however salvation is not just dependent on faith. Peter and the apostles were commanded to go and preach baptism for the remission of sins. (Mark 16:16).
With statements like John 3:16 and the like - they're all true of course, they're in the Bible, but it is not a contradiction with baptism, repentance and confession. It would be if it said faith only. (James 2:24.)

We must remember three things and discern all things in scripture.

1)

2Th 2:11
(ALT)
And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
Notice it was God not Satan “send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie”.

2)

The letter killeth, that is why God’s Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.

3)

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Let us look a little closer at John 3:16 and especially the Strong’s

Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance on my PC Bible.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but


NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.
&#12288;
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words
"not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


The word
"whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read,
"that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "
for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."
Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole.
The word “might” was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."


Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!


Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
&#12288;
&#12288;
&#12288;
 
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spiritual warrior

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We must remember three things and discern all things in scripture...

Newsong...I hope it is not too late. You are regurgitating nonsense from calvin's teachings that are extremely short-sighted and not in accordance with scripture.

There are several important factors that we need to practice in proper hermeneutical scripture interpretation, and the first one is that God does not contradict Himself - ever. The passages of scripture that calvin, and those who follow him today (following man, not God), use in their teachings directly contradict other passages when interpreted as they interpret them.

The second thing to remember is that scripture needs to be interpreted in line with God's character, and the teachings of calvin do not follow this rule either. The teachings of calvin state that God created billions upon billions of people in the history of the world that He will not choose for eternal life...He only chooses a select few...thereby passively selecting everyone else for an eternity in hell that they do not deserve if He is the one causing them to go there by not selecting them for heaven.

Scripture teaches us that God is love, and that He desires no one to die and go to hell, therefore, calvinistic teachings are unscriptural. OSAS is nonsense that is not taught in scripture, for OSAS comes directly out of the spiritually immature understanding of scripture that brings calvin's ideas of selection. Calvin was only three years old in the Lord (if he ever was truly saved, coming out of the man-made religious system he came out of) when he devised what are today called the 5 points of calvinism, and until his death many years later he never changed is original beliefs.

Now, here is some wisdom we should follow...who do you know that was only three years old in their faith who has not changed what they first believed in, many years later. I can tell you that I know some...they have been calling themselves "Christians" for many years, yet all they do is sit in their pews every Sunday, they use Christian jargon, but other than that they do nothing. They hardly spend time in the Word, they only get what they are told by others...they don't serve God in any way...they are just "spiritual" couch-potatoes. They haven't grown in Christ one bit in years.

I am not getting on to you about this, so please don't get defensive, I am just trying to help you see more clearly the things that it seems you are choosing to believe in. Calvin was wrong because of the following...

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge....

Isaiah 5:13
Therefore my people go into exile for lack of accurate knowledge....

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

What I am saying is this...many in his time hailed calvin as a genius because they were fighting the catholic church and his doctrine went against that taught by the catholic church, so he was a hero to millions trying to free themselves from their reign. So, because he was widely accepted because of this, his doctrine was also widely accepted in a time when the Reformation was still in infancy. He was hailed as a scholar, and people believed that his doctrine was right because he was a hailed as a scholar. I can tell you with all gravity that there are those who are hailed as scholars today in God's Word that are no more spiritual, nor God believing, than my chair I am sitting on right now.

Am I saying that he was not truly converted? No, because no one knows that for sure except God...and that is my point. Scripture can only be understood by people who do four things...

1st - they have to be born again (regenerated - which means that the Spirit of God has come into them and dwells in them), because unless they have the Spirit of God in them to teach them what the scriptures are saying, they will come up with all kinds of nonsensical ideas of what scripture is trying to tell them...

1Co 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


The word "spiritually" here is the adverbial form of "pneumatikos" meaning "by the assistance of the Spirit of God," and if calvin was never truly born again, regenerated, then this explains why he could not understand what he was reading and misinterpreted it. Again, only God knows if he was truly regenerated or not, and this was a common happenstance in the history of the church (I have read where ministers were leading churches for years after their "conversion" to Christianity, that never had a born again experience for years afterward...the revivalist William Haslam was such a man).

If a man does not have the Spirit of God in him to cause him to discern the intended meaning of scripture, then that man will not come to the correct interpretation of that scripture. Was calvin born again? None of us knows today, and that is why we need to study scripture on our own, with the prayerful aid of the Spirit, laying aside what we have been taught by others until we discover that their words are indeed true. In other words...be a Berean...like in the book of Acts...and double check all that you are taught, for much of what we are taught by others is not in accordance with accurate knowledge of the scriptures.

2nd - they must be walking in the Spirit. If we are not walking in the Spirit, then we are not participating in the New Covenant, and if we are not participating in the New Covenant, then we are walking in disobedience to God and His Spirit will not help us do anything.

3rd - we must be studying God's Word prayerfully. What I mean is this, God authored the Word through chosen vessels, chosen to deliver that Word to us...but they did not write it, God wrote it through their hand. As my signature states, and is true, and is no lie, one can only know and understand the scriptures that God authored by spending time with Him in prayer over the scriptures, earnestly seeking from Him the understanding of what He intended to say to us.

4th - we must understand and apply proper hermeneutical study of God's Word. That means, there are certain rules to follow in order to interpret scripture, and in calvin's case - and his followers - they leave behind many of those rules in an effort to come to their erroneous conclusions about doctrinal statements.

If a man (or woman) is not meeting all four requirements, they will not always come away from scriptural study with accurate knowledge on what scriptures says. I have been a minister now for over 25 years, beginning with doing "battle" with JW's doctrine, and then such atrocities found within the Body of Christ...I am not tooting my horn, I am only trying to show you that I know what I am talking about...and the Body of Christ today is riddled with doctrines that are not accurately, scripturally, interpreted.

Blessings to you!
 
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NEW SONG

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Newsong...I hope it is not too late. You are regurgitating nonsense from calvin's teachings that are extremely short-sighted and not in accordance with scripture.

There are several important factors that we need to practice in proper hermeneutical scripture interpretation, and the first one is that God does not contradict Himself - ever. The passages of scripture that calvin, and those who follow him today (following man, not God), use in their teachings directly contradict other passages when interpreted as they interpret them.

The second thing to remember is that scripture needs to be interpreted in line with God's character, and the teachings of calvin do not follow this rule either. The teachings of calvin state that God created billions upon billions of people in the history of the world that He will not choose for eternal life...He only chooses a select few...thereby passively selecting everyone else for an eternity in hell that they do not deserve if He is the one causing them to go there by not selecting them for heaven.

Scripture teaches us that God is love, and that He desires no one to die and go to hell, therefore, calvinistic teachings are unscriptural. OSAS is nonsense that is not taught in scripture, for OSAS comes directly out of the spiritually immature understanding of scripture that brings calvin's ideas of selection. Calvin was only three years old in the Lord (if he ever was truly saved, coming out of the man-made religious system he came out of) when he devised what are today called the 5 points of calvinism, and until his death many years later he never changed is original beliefs.

Now, here is some wisdom we should follow...who do you know that was only three years old in their faith who has not changed what they first believed in, many years later. I can tell you that I know some...they have been calling themselves "Christians" for many years, yet all they do is sit in their pews every Sunday, they use Christian jargon, but other than that they do nothing. They hardly spend time in the Word, they only get what they are told by others...they don't serve God in any way...they are just "spiritual" couch-potatoes. They haven't grown in Christ one bit in years.

I am not getting on to you about this, so please don't get defensive, I am just trying to help you see more clearly the things that it seems you are choosing to believe in. Calvin was wrong because of the following...

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge....

Isaiah 5:13
Therefore my people go into exile for lack of accurate knowledge....

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

What I am saying is this...many in his time hailed calvin as a genius because they were fighting the catholic church and his doctrine went against that taught by the catholic church, so he was a hero to millions trying to free themselves from their reign. So, because he was widely accepted because of this, his doctrine was also widely accepted in a time when the Reformation was still in infancy. He was hailed as a scholar, and people believed that his doctrine was right because he was a hailed as a scholar. I can tell you with all gravity that there are those who are hailed as scholars today in God's Word that are no more spiritual, nor God believing, than my chair I am sitting on right now.

Am I saying that he was not truly converted? No, because no one knows that for sure except God...and that is my point. Scripture can only be understood by people who do four things...

1st - they have to be born again (regenerated - which means that the Spirit of God has come into them and dwells in them), because unless they have the Spirit of God in them to teach them what the scriptures are saying, they will come up with all kinds of nonsensical ideas of what scripture is trying to tell them...

1Co 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The word "spiritually" here is the adverbial form of "pneumatikos" meaning "by the assistance of the Spirit of God," and if calvin was never truly born again, regenerated, then this explains why he could not understand what he was reading and misinterpreted it. Again, only God knows if he was truly regenerated or not, and this was a common happenstance in the history of the church (I have read where ministers were leading churches for years after their "conversion" to Christianity, that never had a born again experience for years afterward...the revivalist William Haslam was such a man).

If a man does not have the Spirit of God in him to cause him to discern the intended meaning of scripture, then that man will not come to the correct interpretation of that scripture. Was calvin born again? None of us knows today, and that is why we need to study scripture on our own, with the prayerful aid of the Spirit, laying aside what we have been taught by others until we discover that their words are indeed true. In other words...be a Berean...like in the book of Acts...and double check all that you are taught, for much of what we are taught by others is not in accordance with accurate knowledge of the scriptures.

2nd - they must be walking in the Spirit. If we are not walking in the Spirit, then we are not participating in the New Covenant, and if we are not participating in the New Covenant, then we are walking in disobedience to God and His Spirit will not help us do anything.

3rd - we must be studying God's Word prayerfully. What I mean is this, God authored the Word through chosen vessels, chosen to deliver that Word to us...but they did not write it, God wrote it through their hand. As my signature states, and is true, and is no lie, one can only know and understand the scriptures that God authored by spending time with Him in prayer over the scriptures, earnestly seeking from Him the understanding of what He intended to say to us.

4th - we must understand and apply proper hermeneutical study of God's Word. That means, there are certain rules to follow in order to interpret scripture, and in calvin's case - and his followers - they leave behind many of those rules in an effort to come to their erroneous conclusions about doctrinal statements.

If a man (or woman) is not meeting all four requirements, they will not always come away from scriptural study with accurate knowledge on what scriptures says. I have been a minister now for over 25 years, beginning with doing "battle" with JW's doctrine, and then such atrocities found within the Body of Christ...I am not tooting my horn, I am only trying to show you that I know what I am talking about...and the Body of Christ today is riddled with doctrines that are not accurately, scripturally, interpreted.

Blessings to you!

I am not a Calvinist.
 
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River-Dweller

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Here is an answer to the question "Does each person choose their own destiny?" from J.I. Packer.

Dr. Packer is a Calvinist, but he is careful in the way that he answers this question. I don't think that most who disagree with Calvinism would have very much difficulty accepting what he says here:

Does Each Person Choose Their Own Destiny? J.I. Packer - YouTube

I agree by the way with Dr. Packer on the doctrine of election. I think he illustrates here precisely why many who are not Calvinists can read Matthew Henry or Charles Spurgeon find very little that they disagree with in spite of the fact that both of those men were Calvinists.
 
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