Once Saved Always Saved? False.

[YthPastor1182]

Not to stir up contraversy, but this is why I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved:

Let's begin with the basic doctrine of Calvanism:

TOTAL DEPRAVIT

Man possessed no ability to make a choice about God.
Unconditional Election-Because man had no ability to choose God, before the world was created, God chose who would be saved and lost.

LIMITED ATONEMENT

According to Calvin, Christ did not die for the whole world but only for the elect.

IRRESISTABLE GRACE

If you were one of the chosen, when the call of salvation came, you could not resist the call!

PRESEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Once you were saved you could never lose your salvation which is called “Unconditional Eternal Security..


All men, women, and child have the free will to either accept or reject the Gospel.

It is God's intention and desire that all men to be saved. The scripture illustrates this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Revelation 22:17 “And the Spirit and the bride say come. And let him that heareth, say come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him come.”


To quote from Rev. Edwin Hayes,

"First of all I would like to say that Christians have much security in Jesus Christ. We are not saying that God is up in heaven just waiting for an opportunity to cut us off when we fail. He is a longsuffering Father who patiently teaches, corrects and disciplines those who are His. We are saying that we cannot willfully walk away from Christ and expect to go to heaven! There are many warnings in the scripture to believers about making shipwreck of our faith."

II Peter 2:20-21 ”For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

Hebrews 3:12 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

In conclusion, I do not believe that man looses his free will after he is saved and God does not take anyone to Heaven against their own will.

 

[Auntie]

Hi Ryan, welcome to CF.

So how do you know when you're saved and when you're lost again? Do you just guess? Do you just hope you're saved? When you're lost again, can you tell right away? Is it like losing your wallet and you say: "Oh wow, I lost my wallet."? I mean, at what point do you realize you are lost again? Can a person get lost again and saved again, then lost again within, say, one year?

 

[Benedicta00]

I would say when you know and deliberately choose sin over the gospel willfully and unrepentantly, you should also have sense enough to know your lost if you were a born again Christian who has no plans on repenting.

 

[Auntie]

Hi Michelle,

You may not realize it, but you are in the Protestant Forum. Please feel free to ask polite questions of the Protestant members here, but realize that you are not allowed to debate the answers you are given.

If you wish to debate the Protestant doctrines concerning salvation, please feel free to do so in the IDD Forum. This thread is a debate thread for Protestants, so I am unable to respond to your comments here.

Thanks and God bless,

Auntie.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I have a question.

How do you really know if someone is saved or if they aren't?

Michelle

 

[YthPastor1182]

In response to your questions:

Auntie: All sin that's not repented for is unforgiven sin. And, unforgiven sin is worthy to seperate us eternally from God. The fear of the Lord is being revernt to Him always. As Paul stated in the book of
acts, we must sacrfice ourselves daily, that is live in subjection to God and His Will daily (even every hour, moment, and second) It is impossible to go a day without sinning, but it is possible to be in a state of prayer and confession. In everything we do, go to Him in prayer. God will always be there to forgive, but we must continue to seek that forgiveness. If we believe that i'm already forgiven for all my future sins, then wouldn't it give me the right to commit murder? Afterall, all my future sins are forgiven.

Michelle:

How do you know one is saved or not? How can you tell what kind of tree you are growing? Look at it's Fruit. The Christian will be growing the Fruit of the Spirit. The Non-Christian will be growing the Fruit of the Flesh. That's the Fruit test, if you are a student of Christ this principal will sound familar to you.

 

[Andrew]

All sin that's not repented for is unforgiven sin. And, unforgiven sin is worthy to seperate us eternally from God.

So have you repented of all sin, including the biggies like fear and unbelief?

Gosh, I'm no where near there yet, so I guess I'm not saved and going to hell should I die.

But then so are millions of Christians. That's comforting.

YthPastor,

Rest in the finished work of the Son. You are still being your own Saviour. Enter His rest. Your sins are already forgiven. You HAVE forgiveness, as long as you have put your trust in Christ to be your Saviour.

 

[YthPastor1182]

It's a daily sacrfice of ourselves... we must presevere and be walk in the Fear of the Lord always.

 

[Auntie]

And, unforgiven sin is worthy to seperate us eternally from God.

Absolutely, even the tiniest "little" sin will send us to hell, as all sins are sins; all sin separates us from God. That is why God gave us a Savior, Jesus Christ, knowing that our righteousness is as rags. All the repentance in the world won't save you, only the blood of Christ can cleanse you of sin; only the blood of Christ can bring forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

The fear of the Lord is being revernt to Him always.

Jesus said the #1 commandment is to love God. Loving God is our first commandment, more important than any other. Jesus went to the cross because of His love for Father God.

As Paul stated in the book of
acts, we must sacrfice ourselves daily, that is live in subjection to God and His Will daily (even every hour, moment, and second) It is impossible to go a day without sinning, but it is possible to be in a state of prayer and confession. In everything we do, go to Him in prayer.

Yes, but none of those works will save you. Salvation is thru the blood of Christ.

God will always be there to forgive, but we must continue to seek that forgiveness. If we believe that i'm already forgiven for all my future sins, then wouldn't it give me the right to commit murder? Afterall, all my future sins are forgiven.

As a blood washed Christian, do you desire to commit murder? I would hope not. But Jesus said to even THINK of a sin in your heart is the same as commiting the sin. You see, it's a matter of the heart/spirit, and not the physical. "As a man thinketh, so is he". Sin is born in the heart, not the body. Before a man commits murder with his physical hand, he has already committed murder in his heart. And if we break even ONE commandment, we are guilty of all. Brother, we are in a hopeless state without the blood of Jesus. You can confess all day long, and it won't save you.

I wasn't born yet when Jesus suffered on the cross for my sins. On that day, He suffered and died for ALL my sins, before I even committed the first one. He died for the sins I WOULD commit. When I accepted Jesus as my Savior, I accepted His blood for ALL of my sins.

God bless

Auntie.

 

[Reformationist]

Let's begin with the basic doctrine of Calvanism:

TOTAL DEPRAVIT

Man possessed no ability to make a choice about God.

Incorrect. Fallen man can and does make a choice about God. Their choice is, however, against God instead of embracing Him. They do this without external coercion.

Unconditional Election-Because man had no ability to choose God, before the world was created, God chose who would be saved and lost.

I don't disagree with this discription except that I don't think your definition should start with the word "because." God did not choose who He would redeem and who He wouldn't "because" we couldn't choose. He chose a people for Himself because it pleased Him to bring them to faith. His election unto salvation is not the result of man's moral inability. Rather it is according to His own divine pleasure, which is the embodiment of righteousness.

LIMITED ATONEMENT

According to Calvin, Christ did not die for the whole world but only for the elect.

That's correct.

IRRESISTABLE GRACE

If you were one of the chosen, when the call of salvation came, you could not resist the call!

It's not so much an issue of "not being able to resist" but rather not wanting to resist because the effectual grace of God changes our desires. Man chooses that which he most desires. In his fallen state he desires only to rebel. Therefore, he cannot choose that which he does not desire. Whereas, when God sovereignly regenerates a person and gives him a heart of flesh in place of his heart of stone it is now his natural inclination to desire the things of God and therefore he seeks to fulfill that very thing.

PRESEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Once you were saved you could never lose your salvation which is called “Unconditional Eternal Security..

A more accurate term for this is "preservation of the saints." We do not persevere by our own power but rather by the power of God in preserving us from completely falling, as is shown in the contrast of Judas and Peter. Both denied Christ at a certain point. God graciously preserved Peter while He did not offer that same grace to Judas, who was never a child of God.

All men, women, and child have the free will to either accept or reject the Gospel.

This is an issue that the church has faced since the beginning. There is a huge difference between "free will" and "liberty." Man was given the faculty of a will and the ability to make choices that are determined by that will when he was created. However, when man, in Adam, fell from the grace of God, his liberty was lost.

It is God's intention and desire that all men to be saved.

What do you mean it was God's desire that all men be saved? Do you mean it was His sovereign, decreed will that all people be saved or are you just referring to the benevolence of God that He does not delight in the death of the wicked, though their death is just and necessary?

The scripture illustrates this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Two things. First, Scripture shows God's just punishment of those who are not His as well as His mercy on those He has sovereignly selected to redeem. Everyone who believes in Christ, that is, those who faithfully believe that Christ atoned for their sins and overcame the trap of death will be saved. That is not disputed, at least not by Calvinists. What is disputed is why man believes in the first place. Is saving faith a gift of God to begin with or is saving faith the result of fallen man inclining his own heart toward Christ? IOW, did man retain a measure of righteousness inherent to his nature even after the Fall? I think the Bible is quite clear that this is not the case.

Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

What does this mean to you? Does it mean that "calling upon the name of the Lord" results in our salvation? Is our salvation the result of our works, such as calling on His name or is it the result of the efficacious work of our Redeemer?

Revelation 22:17 “And the Spirit and the bride say come. And let him that heareth, say come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him come.”

God does not hold anyone back from coming to Him. The fallen nature of unregenerate man does not desire the things of God. When God sovereignly changes the heart of fallen man through the grace of regeneration he is now inclined, and does, seek the Will of God.

In conclusion, I do not believe that man looses his free will after he is saved and God does not take anyone to Heaven against their own will.

Again I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "free will" but I would say that Calvinists would agree with this statement as well.

It seems as if you are not very well versed in the theology of Calvinism. It might behoove you to learn a little more of John Calvin's beliefs before you disagree with them.

God bless