Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

Light of the East · Jul 20, 2015

fatherjimparker said:
The judgment seat is not a trial. It is the moment when Jesus will pronounce each person's eternal doom: "And (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46) Everyone's works will be revealed; whether they are among the wicked or the righteous will be clearly manifest to all. Therefore, God's judgment will be seen by all creation to be perfect.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed.

Nice try. Not what it is teaching at all.

Guess I'll have to post the whole section.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That's the Judgment Day. Now again, you haven't answer the question. Why are the believer even at the Judgment Day where the sheep are separated from the goats (Matthew 25: 33-46)? If they were saved, then they don't belong there, do they?

6 Who will render
ἀποδίδωμι
to every man according to his deeds:

Strong's Concordance says that this word means to pay off, discharge what is due

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (i.e. good works) seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In other words, if you do not do good works, then you don't receive eternal life. It's really that simple. So the man who is baptized into Christ and then decides that he doesn't want anything to do with the salvation he has received or the Christ who died for him shall not receive eternal life.

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

What I just said. You know the truth but you do not obey it. And Christian history is rather filled with such folk. They came into the Church and they left the Church, breaking the covenant they made in their baptism into Christ.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

What Paul is doing here is teaching the Jews, who thought that just because they were circumcised and Jewish that they had a lock on heaven (kind of like those who think that they made a "decision for Jesus " and also have a lock on heaven) that if they don't do good works -- forget it!

(Wait a minute! You're Catholic and you're arguing with me?????)

msgd1025 · Jul 20, 2015

AVBunyan said:
This issue has been run in the ground for centuries. There are reasons people struggle with eternal security.

1. Because Satan has so many counterfeit bibles a person who is dead set on losing his salvation can always find a bible somewhere that will support his viewpoint. I mean there are 75 or more versions so just find one that supports your heresy. Try sticking with the one God wrote, the King James Bible.

2. Because a person doesn’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth then he goes to passages that doctrinally don’t have anything to do with a saved/blood-bought, redeemed saint in the body of CHrist. Instead of going to the Pauline epistles which deal with the saint today (Rom. – Phil.) he goes running to passages that…

a. deals with Jews under the law (Exo. thru John) where salvation is conditional upon his faith and his adherence to the Mosaic Law and

b. Hebrews thru Revelation which doctrinally deals with the future great tribulation, where again salvation is conditional upon his faith and works.
For example if one wants to go to hell then Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved is as good as one can find. For here the end does not mean the end of your life but the end of a time period, the 7 year tribulation where it is a faith/works setup. Or he can go to Heb. 3 (written to Hebrews, not the body of Christ) where entering into a rest at the end of the 7 year tribulation where again, you have a faith/works setup. There are many more of these passages like this that folks use to justify losing it but these passages are written to a Jew under the law before the age of grace or to the Jew working his way thru the 7 year tribulation.

3. He often goes to Paul and misinterprets the passage, for ex. Phil. 2:12 where one is told to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and then fails to read the next verse which declares that it is God which will do the work. Or he can go to the famous Rom. 11:22 where the individual is not being discussed but a nation. Or he can butcher I Cor. 9:27 where Paul is not worried about being cast away from God’s grace but being cast out of the ministry. Or he can trip over Gal. 5: 4 where Paul is saying that if you want to try and work your way to heaven then you missed grace.

So there are many passages that teach salvation is conditional just find a Jew under the law or working his way to heave n during the 7 year tribulation.

The “lose it” will search everywhere to lose it while ignoring the clear passages in Paul which clearly teach salvation is secure in Christ, for ex.:

1. Eph. 2:8, 9

2. Eph. 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. The Holy Spirit put you in the actual body of Christ II Cor. 5:17, 12:13 and then according to Eph. 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Would you mind telling me how you are going to get out of Christ’s body (Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone,) and then finally, jump out of heaven under your own power?

4. Works are clearly not a part of one’s salvation today – Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; and Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5. The average saint today has no idea what actually happened to him doctrinally at salvation – He just think she made a commitment to Christ or asked Jesus into his heart, etc. You are redeemed and forgiven Col. 1:14; You are justified by the faith of Christ – Rom. 3:24; You are glorified Rom. 8:30; Sanctified I Cor. 1:30;

Now please tell me how you are going to undo points 3-5 by yourself. I’m listening.

6. You don’t even live by your faith Gal. 2:20

I just scratched the surface on Pauls’ epistles.

Folks real simple – either you are trusting Christ alone or yourself. If you think you can lose it then you are counting on you to do something to keep it or you are counting on you to keep from doing something in order to keep it – either way you are counting on you and you have rejected Christ!

So – instead of spending all your time in the OT, the Gospels and the tribulation spend a little time in the books written by the Paul for today written to saints in the body of Christ.

God bless!

Again, Colossians 1:21-23. Is that Pauline enough for you?

GBRK · Jul 20, 2015

HannahElizaW said:
I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?

EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.

The term Once Saved always Saved is usually attributed to Baptist and used by Baptist, of which I also am. The problem with the term is it appears as an Insurance Policy that enables the Christian to do whatever they want after asking Christ into their heart. For one lets consider actual true salvation, by faith, where God places His Holy Spirit in the Heart of the Believer as a proof and guarantee of the Christian's salvation. This Holy Spirit is God literally dwelling within our own body ministering unto us and providing within us the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25).

I do believe that once a person is saved and God's Holy Spirit indwells that person then there is no outside power that is strong enough or capable enough to unroot God's Holy Spirit from within. In other words Satan or his Demons cannot possess the Christian such that God's Holy Spirit is removed and leaves the Christian unprotected and lost. I also do not believe that there is any sin or specific amount of sin which a person can commit that will reach a point to where God says enough you're out! If there was such a sin, a specific sin or amount of sinfulness that would or could rob you of your salvation then it would be God's obligation to teach and tell us what that sin would be or at what point that amount of sinfulness was reached. I do though believe that unrepentant continual sins in a Christian's life will take a toll on the Christian and the Christian will live a miserable life devoid of the Fruits of God's Spirit and lose their Happiness but not their salvation. Consider the sinner in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who habitually sins willingly. The man is turned over such that the body can be destroyed ( DEATH ) but the soul/spirit saved in the day of redemption. So I do believe that there are penalties for a Christian to sin but I do not believe losing salvation is one of them.

Can you lose your Salvation? There is ONE area I am not totally convinced about. IF a person was to renounce Christ as their savior, openly renounce Christ willingly, deliberately, asking God to leave and take back their faith willingly then I am not so convinced that God's Spirit will continue within on that would do this and this is the one area I have a problem with and frankly am not content to say a person is protected from. Willing giving up of faith and turning away from Christ after they were once saved.

fatherjimparker · Jul 20, 2015

MikeEnders said:
As also taught in 1 cor 3
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Yeah. Sounds like purgatory, doesn't it? We'll see when we see.

fatherjimparker · Jul 20, 2015

[QUOTE="Light of the East, post: 68334141, member: 336257"]Nice try. Not what it is teaching at all.

Guess I'll have to post the whole section.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[/QUOTE]

The wrath is the judgment that the "goats" go to hell.
The Judgment is the pronouncement of the exile from the kingdom of the wicked and the inheritance of the kingdom by the righteous.

[/QUOTE]That's the Judgment Day. Now again, you haven't answer the question. Why are the believer even at the Judgment Day where the sheep are separated from the goats (Matthew 25: 33-46)? If they were saved, then they don't belong there, do they? [/QUOTE]

I did answer. You didn't understand. It happens.......-|

[/QUOTE] 6 "Who will render (ἀποδίδωμι) to every man according to his deeds:"

Strong's Concordance says that this word means to pay off, discharge what is due

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (i.e. good works) seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In other words, if you do not do good works, then you don't receive eternal life. It's really that simple. So the man who is baptized into Christ and then decides that he doesn't want anything to do with the salvation he has received or the Christ who died for him shall not receive eternal life. [/QUOTE]

That's the way I see it.

[/QUOTE] 8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

What I just said. You know the truth but you do not obey it. And Christian history is rather filled with such folk. They came into the Church and they left the Church, breaking the covenant they made in their baptism into Christ.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

What Paul is doing here is teaching the Jews, who thought that just because they were circumcised and Jewish that they had a lock on heaven (kind of like those who think that they made a "decision for Jesus " and also have a lock on heaven) that if they don't do good works -- forget it! [/QUOTE]

That's right. We see it the same. (great minds work alike ) OSAS is Mishuggah!

[/QUOTE](Wait a minute! You're Catholic and you're arguing with me?????)[/QUOTE]

Orthodox, actually.

The only thing I don't agree on is about the righteous belonging at the judgment. They're there because it is at the judgment that Christ will pronounce their reward. (Ro 2) The wicked get the wages of sin. (A SECOND death! Oi veh!) And the righteous inherit the Kingdom prepared for them.

That reward will NOT be based on saying a sincere "sinner's prayer" one time but, on a life striving to please the Lord. (Actually imitating the Lord in His mercy. Imitation being the highest form of praise.)

redleghunter · Jul 21, 2015

pastor marty said:
I make sure to polish my salvation at least once a day so as not to get a migraine over this umpire call, "he's safe !-No he's out."Here's what I think. There is nothing man can't screw-up with a big enough SIN.Once saved ? Great; show our Lord some respect & act like it and you can throw this question in the 'who cares bin'. I remind our Lord daily that He said "I will never leave U,nor forsake U." Staying worthy of that kind of love is a full time job..........marty

Right attitude. Salvation is not our works but serving Christ is huge and joyful work.

MikeEnders · Jul 21, 2015

The usual recourse by those who defend OSAS is to assert that such texts were not written to believers, but which is untenable in context,

nothing is untenable within context unless you ignore scriptural context. The NT is VERY clear that rather than there being just two groups - non christian and Christian - there are in fact people who will be among the church but not truly there as full believers. Jesus' parable of the sower makes it clear. some people believe for awhile some people believe for joy but both have no root. Multiple other passages particularly in 1 john indicate that they show themselves as not being part of the saved group when they leave the church. All of which in biblical context indicates Believers don't always translate to saved. Simon of acts 8 in particularly drives this home

"Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw."

just a few verses later Paul berates him and tells him he isn't even saved and has no part in the Holy Spirit. So of course The NT gives warnings to the church. Why wouldn't the apostles since they knew in every church group there may be those not fully committed? People who deny this tend to overlook completely wholesale passages that teach the reactions of people to the gospel are more than just two options. some people get truly saved when they come forward and "commit their life" to Christ. Some get saved years after that and others well never get saved at all. Thats how church is people and the apostles knew it.

The FACT of the matter is there are MANY passages that without twisting the scriptures teach very clearly that once someone is truly born again their future is set eternally. People who deny OSAS try desperately to ignore such passages and when they do deal with them they add to the verses clauses and conditions that are nowhere in the text and even change the meaning of the text to suit their theology

That's not the way to rightly divide God's words. The verse that teach OSAS are some of the most straightforward and untwistable passages. The Lord even promises that of those he has been given he will lose NONE

"39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…"
John 6

Anti OSAS have Jesus lying he will some nothing and in fact claim that many will be lost. Jesus won't be able to keep them from being lost. Nope.....Salvation is not a half way job

"28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8

Anti - OSAS have Paul lying and claim anti biblically that all things do not work for good....... but they are wrong. God uses everything EVERYTHING .....ALLL THINGS to bring all who he owns to come through to be glorified in the end

"37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8

Despite Anti - OSAS claims nothing is in the future of a believer that will render him seperate form the love of God that he has in christ. That rules out the lake of fire for all believers.....sorry

"4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
1 john 5:4

Despite Anti OSAS claims it is in the nature of all truly born again people to overcome. ANTI OSAS have perhaps millions of believers being overcome by sin and being so defeated they end up in the lake of fire which directly defied what John says - that WHATEVER is born of god overcomes the world.

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
1 John 1:9

Despite scripture clearly and unequivocally stating that a truly born again person cannot go back to continuously living in unrepentant non stop sin for the rest of their life anti OSAS have them not only doing so but doing so straight to hell (can't get more non stop sinning than that)

Notice all these verses are STRONG and unambiguous using terms like NONE, Whatever, nothing . all........indicating clauses without any limit or condition.

All the ANti OSAS have to counter what scripture PLAINLY teaches are passages that warn groups that would have had people at various levels of commitment to Christ not to turn back. How does that outweigh that real believers are said over and over and over in the NT to have real eternal life not only in quality but in duration?

this isn't just about security. this is about salvation being what Jesus said it is - real , complete and eternal

redleghunter · Jul 21, 2015

Light of the East said:
Nice try. Not what it is teaching at all.

Guess I'll have to post the whole section.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That's the Judgment Day. Now again, you haven't answer the question. Why are the believer even at the Judgment Day where the sheep are separated from the goats (Matthew 25: 33-46)? If they were saved, then they don't belong there, do they?

6 Who will render
ἀποδίδωμι
to every man according to his deeds:

Strong's Concordance says that this word means to pay off, discharge what is due

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (i.e. good works) seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In other words, if you do not do good works, then you don't receive eternal life. It's really that simple. So the man who is baptized into Christ and then decides that he doesn't want anything to do with the salvation he has received or the Christ who died for him shall not receive eternal life.

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

What I just said. You know the truth but you do not obey it. And Christian history is rather filled with such folk. They came into the Church and they left the Church, breaking the covenant they made in their baptism into Christ.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

What Paul is doing here is teaching the Jews, who thought that just because they were circumcised and Jewish that they had a lock on heaven (kind of like those who think that they made a "decision for Jesus " and also have a lock on heaven) that if they don't do good works -- forget it!

(Wait a minute! You're Catholic and you're arguing with me?????)

Clearly, Christ can be your Judge before the Throne...or your advocate. Because if we approach that Throne without our debt paid by the Spotless Lamb of God then it's game over.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 21, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Really? Does context not matter at all? I showed from contextually related passages that "inheriting the kingdom" means to "have an inheritance in the kingdom".

But never mind. Let's just go with your point. If the kingdom of God is within us, why does the Bible speak of inheriting the kingdom, or having an inheritance in the kingdom?

When did you ever showed me any passage or scripture that claims inherit the kingdom means the same as having an inheritance in the kingdom?

Link it, I love to see it.

You'll be hard press to prove your point because contrary to what you think you know, these are two different kingdoms you're addressing.

FreeGrace2 said:
btw, who was Jesus addressing when he said the kingdom of God is in you or in your midst? The previous verse tells us: Pharisees. Do you believe the kingdom of God was IN them?? He described them as hypocrites frequently.

Of course I know Christ was talking to the pharisees. Christ answered them because they asked Him the question. Do you not understand actual meaning of those passages. Christ was implying the kingdom of God cannot be observed because it's something within you. You as in an individual, not the pharisees.

Luke 17:20-21 NCV
20 Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the kingdom of God come?”
Jesus answered, “God’s kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you will be able to see with your eyes. 21 People will not say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ because God’s kingdom is within you.”

SinnerInTheHands · Jul 21, 2015

Light of the East said:
And finally, the Catholic Church, which the Bible states is the "pillar and ground of truth" has stated that this is a false doctrine, so everything else aside, that settles it. The Church has spoken.

Uh . . . that's not the RCC it's referring to.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 21, 2015

Admiral_Kang said:
And how do you know that 'Inherit the Kingdom of God' means the same thing as 'Salvation'? You are crossing over your terminology!

They're not the same, but you absolutely cannot have one without the other. The kingdom of God has to be within you in order to maintain your salvation while living the eternal life. All three are intertwine.

An example would be like a guy proposing marriage to his girlfriend. It's common knowledge to know he loves her and has a ring for her.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 21, 2015

gigman7 said:
What you have quoted is not "losing salvation", it's never having it. If you read it the way you are trying to show it, we are all going to hell. It basically says we are all going to hell for our sins. But fortunatey, because of salvation, we can get by all of this through Christ.

If you understand it the way it's written, it means you're going to hell if you willfully sin and refuse to repent. That's what it means. Take it a step further, it also means salvation is not a license to sin.

Contrary to OSAS, salvation is far from being a done deal. Take it a 3rd step further and you know you'll need to overcome in order to avoid the lake of fire and not have one's name removed from the book of life.

Rev 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

* Where's the eternal security if Christ can decide to remove your name from the book of life?

* As a new believer, what exactly did anyone overcome when they accepted the gift of salvation that makes their salvation eternally secured?

gigman7 said:
What you have quoted is not "losing salvation", it's never having it.

* Explain this part. How is it a Christian never had salvation?

Salvation is not immortality in heaven. Going to heaven is just a byproduct of salvation because Christ is your salvation. All Christian have Christ in them because Christ denies no one of His gift.

Near · Jul 21, 2015

pureinheart said:
Endure this is really good and pretty much how I think, though I tend to lean more towards OSAS.

The reason I came to this conclusion is due to the fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Back in the day a seal was something that could not be broken.

Now here is where I can be swayed the other way- I've seen people that I know were saved, yet walked away and now claim they aren't Christian. Could they be back-slidden? The Parodical Son, per se? I just don't know. I could see how a persons heart could grow cold...

I think it's a bit over-reaching to say that sealed with the Holy-Spirit equates to being forever secure... (even in rebellion towards God in unfaithfulness?), I don't believe that it's accurate to say a seal couldn't be removed.

However, I think the point of Eph 4:30, if that's the verse you're alluding to, is that the Holy Spirit is set upon us, as a seal. A sign of God's ownership upon us, and our belonging to him. Being sealed seems to be similar to being marked.
Go ahead and check this link I use to look up meanings for certain words in the Bible: http://biblehub.com/greek/4972.htm
In my opinion, the ISV offers a better worded translation:
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption."

I think that seals as we understand today, such as the sealing on a pickle-jar, or some adhesive sealant, "flex-seal" for example, are quite different than the ancient seal. Ex. A seal of approval, or the seal of the USA, a wax seal, a print... I think those example are more along the lines of what is meant in that verse.

As for the Prodigal son, he really was lost, and "dead" at one point, but gladly, he was later found.
Luke 15: 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

Chinese Seal.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, loss of one's faith.

When speaking of shipwrecking one's faith, I said that since faith is lost, so is salvation. You believe it means that only a person's faith is lost, not their salvation if I understand correctly.

FreeGrace2 said:
And, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, all by itself. The Holy Spirit simply "seals" the deal.

FreeGrace2 said:
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 5:16 says that justification is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

FreeGrace2 said:
We know this because of the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the fact that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

I don't believe that's to correct way to understand sealing. See above reply to pureinheart.
Secondly, since you admit faith can be lost...
1)The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
2)Faith is a gift
3)Faith can be shipwrecked, and by your admission lost
4)Since point 3 is true, Gifts can be shipwrecked, in other words, lost
5)Eternal life is a gift
6)Therefore we have no reason to think based on the fact that eternal life is a gift, it cannot be lost or "shipwrecked"*.

It's not God who's doing the revoking, but the individual who does the destroying. Apostasy =/= spiritual suicide.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 21, 2015

MikeEnders said:
Sorry but that's absolutely false and I really wish people wouldn't not make up these false facts to back their theology.

A) Outside of the NT we do no have very many early church Christian writers and few even addressed this verse so theres just no truthful way to claim we know "universally" what they believed in regard to this passage
B) John the apostle would completely disagree with your assessment

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
I john 3:9

The verb is in the continuous participle in 1 John 3 as it is in Hebrews 10:26. That is when you are born of god you cannot live in constant sin (even if you trip and fall you ask forgiveness get back up stop sinning and trip again). For John to say you cannot continue sinning and Hebrews to say you can and even willfully indicates they are not talking both about born again believers.

What we have forgotten is that the Lord and the early church expected the wheat would continue with the tares. Rather than either accepting or rejecting Christ the parable of the sower makes clear you can receive with great Joy but no root and end up lost bearing no fruit. Someone can get a lot of enlightenment and even seem to be a believer but not be.

You just pulled a classic example of taking a verse (1st John 3:9) out of context and using what it said in that one single verse, adding your own distorted human reasoning to refute what the bible said another passage.

Here's what prior verses in 1 John 3 say. Those who are of God born with an imperishable seed are those who practise righteousness. It also said those who continues to sin are of the devil and never knew Christ.

1 John 3:6-9
6 So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.
7 Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
8 Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.
9 Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin.

Unless your idea of when a person is actually saved differs from everyone else's, your argument is flawed. A new believer that accepted Christ's gift of salvation does not automatically completely stop sinning.

Hebrews 10:26-30
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

If he willfully continues to sin, he is subject to Hebrews 10:26-30. God WILL judge HIS people.

Romans 2:5-11
5 But you have a hard and stubborn heart, and so you are making your own punishment even greater on the Day when God's anger and righteous judgments will be revealed.
6 For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.
7 Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honor, and immortal life; to them God will give eternal life.
8 Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong; on them God will pour out his anger and fury.
9 There will be suffering and pain for all those who do what is evil, for the Jews first and also for the Gentiles.
10 But God will give glory, honor, and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also to the Gentiles.
11 For God judges everyone by the same standard.

redleghunter · Jul 21, 2015

MikeEnders said:
ATTENTION

the real problem I see in this thread is that people are taking the idea of once saved always saved without what the bible teaches - that real believers persevere, they hold on, they can have faith wane to almost nothing (nearly eclipsed as Jesus tells peter would happen on the night he is betrayed) but they hang in because their seed remains in them

Once saved always saved IS scriptural but it cannot be taken without the teaching that when you are really saved something changes so deep within you that you will never be able to let go again. It is TOTALLY unbiblical to teach that because someone raised their hands in church or said a prayer they can then go on living like the Devil and can be assured of Eternal Life. You can't not be forever changed when the God of the universe really steps into and owns your being.

its no different from any real deep experience - being a dad has completely changed my life. It altered me in such a way I can never go back to before I was a dad. Salvation is even more powerful than that so if you can come back from that and be the same then it didn't really happen.

Mind you you can find yourself in dark places and there ARE numerous places where Christians are called to repent of sin but a real christian HATES living in sin and no matter how much he falls into it he always fights , gets out and fights and gets out and ultimately overcomes the world

"For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again"
Proverbs 24;16

Amen. The astute post of the day.

John Chrysostom
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.”

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 21, 2015

MikeEnders said:
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
1 John 1:9

nothing is untenable within context unless you ignore scriptural context. The NT is VERY clear that rather than there being just two groups - non christian and Christian - there are in fact people who will be among the church but not truly there as full believers. Jesus' parable of the sower makes it clear. some people believe for awhile some people believe for joy but both have no root. Multiple other passages particularly in 1 john indicate that they show themselves as not being part of the saved group when they leave the church. All of which in biblical context indicates Believers don't always translate to saved. Simon of acts 8 in particularly drives this home

"Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw."

just a few verses later Paul berates him and tells him he isn't even saved and has no part in the Holy Spirit. So of course The NT gives warnings to the church. Why wouldn't the apostles since they knew in every church group there may be those not fully committed? People who deny this tend to overlook completely wholesale passages that teach the reactions of people to the gospel are more than just two options. some people get truly saved when they come forward and "commit their life" to Christ. Some get saved years after that and others well never get saved at all. Thats how church is people and the apostles knew it.

The FACT of the matter is there are MANY passages that without twisting the scriptures teach very clearly that once someone is truly born again their future is set eternally. People who deny OSAS try desperately to ignore such passages and when they do deal with them they add to the verses clauses and conditions that are nowhere in the text and even change the meaning of the text to suit their theology

That's not the way to rightly divide God's words. The verse that teach OSAS are some of the most straightforward and untwistable passages. The Lord even promises that of those he has been given he will lose NONE

"39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…"
John 6

Anti OSAS have Jesus lying he will some nothing and in fact claim that many will be lost. Jesus won't be able to keep them from being lost. Nope.....Salvation is not a half way job

"28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8

Anti - OSAS have Paul lying and claim anti biblically that all things do not work for good....... but they are wrong. God uses everything EVERYTHING .....ALLL THINGS to bring all who he owns to come through to be glorified in the end

"37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8

Despite Anti - OSAS claims nothing is in the future of a believer that will render him seperate form the love of God that he has in christ. That rules out the lake of fire for all believers.....sorry

"4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
1 john 5:4

Despite Anti OSAS claims it is in the nature of all truly born again people to overcome. ANTI OSAS have perhaps millions of believers being overcome by sin and being so defeated they end up in the lake of fire which directly defied what John says - that WHATEVER is born of god overcomes the world.

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
1 John 1:9

Despite scripture clearly and unequivocally stating that a truly born again person cannot go back to continuously living in unrepentant non stop sin for the rest of their life anti OSAS have them not only doing so but doing so straight to hell (can't get more non stop sinning than that)

Notice all these verses are STRONG and unambiguous using terms like NONE, Whatever, nothing . all........indicating clauses without any limit or condition.

All the ANti OSAS have to counter what scripture PLAINLY teaches are passages that warn groups that would have had people at various levels of commitment to Christ not to turn back. How does that outweigh that real believers are said over and over and over in the NT to have real eternal life not only in quality but in duration?

this isn't just about security. this is about salvation being what Jesus said it is - real , complete and eternal

First you need to explain to everyone how "a new believer cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
1 John 1:9, then maybe all your arguments won't sound so suspect.

The gift of salvation comes when a person profess and accept Christ as his savior, not when he cannot keep on sinning.

JESUSKiDtommy · Jul 21, 2015

I am an it-don't-matter-a-list ..........I do reckon GOD knew mankind would take HIS WORD and try to draw HIS lines of judgement. I see no where in SCRIPTURE that would indicate that we are called as a part of our walk to even be concerned about such things.... We are called to live by the base teachings of CHRIST, to strive to stay away from sin, and to LOVE PEOPLE. If we would focus on that instead of stuff that is of no use for the Kingdom we would be a lot better off. Just my two cents.

mafugma · Jul 21, 2015

I cannot answer this question with certainty. I personally believe that Jesus will not let me go because I belong to Him now. I know I'm not good enough to deserve Him. None of us are. If you have accepted Jesus as your savior then you're going to need to trust Him to save you.

I love this saying, "Lord I believe. Please help me with my unbelief."

Ask yourselves how far someone who loves you would go to help you. Their love is imperfect and their ability to help you is limited. Now think about God, the Father, our Father. He loves perfectly and there is no limit to His ability to help.

Know that your Father loves you. How far do you think He will go to save you?

greened67 · Jul 21, 2015

fatherjimparker said:
Grace is what God does for us.

It does not logically follow that we can't do anything to reverse our situation.

Paul is in no way stating that being "saved by grace" creates an irreversible condition. That is going way beyond what the scriptures say.

You most certainly can reverse it. Just walk away; go back to serving mammon.

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that indicates a believer cannot leave the path of salvation.

If you walk away, you were not saved.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 21, 2015

I said this:
"Speaking of having "eternal life IN Christ Jesus" in 6:23, we know how one is placed in union in Christ: through faith in Him"

LoveofTruth said:
As I showed clearly Jesus Christ himself is the LIFE and ETERNAL LIFE, if believers have Jesus Christ in them and they abide in him they have eternal life. Eternal life is not so much a state of being, it is Jesus Christ himself and being in him.

Your response has nothing to do with my post, which is about HOW one is placed in union with Christ. Please explain Eph 1:13 if you disagree.

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