On what basis Does God Elect?

[RobertZ]

Esau repented, but his 'repentance' was not acceptable before God.


For God see's the heart

I agree.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Brother, the fact that God may want to see all people saved does not undo the doctrine of election. Sometimes God's desires are thwarted by God's other desires.

For example, he may desire to see all saved, but if you believe salvation is ultimately up to the human will, then God's desire to leave salvation in man's hands has overridden his desire to save all.

On the other hand if you believe God elects who will be saved, then you believe that God's desire to make the decision himself, for his own glory and so that he gets all the credit and removes ground for human boasting (Eph 2, 1 Cor, etc), then yet again, one of God's desires has overridden his desire to see all saved.

The point is, no matter what one believes, God's desires are overridden by His other desires.

That said, consider Paul's attitude for evangelism:

"I endure all things for the sake of the elect so that they may be saved" 2 Tim 2:10

Paul, one of the greatest evanglelists, who endured much persecutation, says he endures it all because his desire is ultimately to see the elect saved.

Therefore, election drives evangelism. It is the motivation for evangelism. God has people out there that he reaches through means of the gospel. It is a great honor for us to be used by God to accomplish his mission of salvation. It is not for us to worry about who the elect are, but preach the gospel faithfully so that God can reach sinners through our words and convert them.

So if I'm not elect, I can do whatever I want because it doesn't matter, my salvation is sealed? Hardly seems like being elected or not is motivation for serving God.

If God desires all men to be saved, and Christ is the savior of all men, doesn't that mean that all men are the elect? As Christ's disciples did not choose him but he chose them, we did not choose Christ to die for our sins, yet Christ did die for our sins. Do we accept that or not is the question.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

The word of God tells us not to worry but to present your needs with prayer and duplications. All YOU can do is pray for them. Let God handle the rest.

The word is "desire" God desires that all men be saved... but you will notice it does not say, It is his WILL. If it were His will, His will will be done.

There is a sharp difference between will and desire.

By using the word "intention" when speaking of God is like making a god of your own... for God does not have intentions... He either does something or does not. There is no intentions with God.... It makes him arbitrary and presents an understanding that he could be a weak god.... IE "God intended to do ABC and D but in the end, he couldn't or didn't." That is not the God of the bible. Perhaps you simply chose a poor word to express your question?

Again, you need to read the verse for what it says... It never says that it is His WILL. Only His desire...

Here are some definitions of will
used as a verb -

Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen


Expressing desire, consent, or willingness


used as a noun -

A deliberate or fixed desire or intention


Seems like you're grasping at straws here to plug up a hole in the wall. Desire and will are the same freaking word. I don't say this to shout you down or insult you, but to say that election as in some people are elect and some aren't is a weak theology at best that only serves to insult and alienate many. God would be the world's worst neglectful parent if He was creating kids only to not want to take responsibility of them. Election is the same as saying "I'm not the baby's daddy."

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

The word is "desire" God desires that all men be saved... but you will notice it does not say, It is his WILL. If it were His will, His will will be done.

There is a sharp difference between will and desire.

By using the word "intention" when speaking of God is like making a god of your own... for God does not have intentions... He either does something or does not. There is no intentions with God.... It makes him arbitrary and presents an understanding that he could be a weak god.... IE "God intended to do ABC and D but in the end, he couldn't or didn't." That is not the God of the bible. Perhaps you simply chose a poor word to express your question?

Again, you need to read the verse for what it says... It never says that it is His WILL. Only His desire...

Here are some definitions of will
used as a verb -

Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen


Expressing desire, consent, or willingness


used as a noun -

A deliberate or fixed desire or intention


Seems like you're grasping at straws here to plug up a hole in the wall. Desire and will are the same freaking word. I don't say this to shout you down or insult you, but to say that election as in some people are elect and some aren't is a weak theology at best that only serves to insult and alienate many. God would be the world's worst neglectful parent if He was creating kids only to not want to take responsibility of them. Election is the same as saying "I'm not the baby's daddy."

 

[Zeena]

So if I'm not elect, I can do whatever I want because it doesn't matter, my salvation is sealed? Hardly seems like being elected or not is motivation for serving God.

If God desires all men to be saved, and Christ is the savior of all men, doesn't that mean that all men are the elect? As Christ's disciples did not choose him but he chose them, we did not choose Christ to die for our sins, yet Christ did die for our sins. Do we accept that or not is the question.

Eph 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel

 

[washedagain]

=Lord Herdsetk;58462620]Here are some definitions of will
used as a verb -

Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen


Expressing desire, consent, or willingness


used as a noun -

A deliberate or fixed desire or intention


Seems like you're grasping at straws here to plug up a hole in the wall. Desire and will are the same freaking word.

Lets look at the rest of the definitions of the word will that desire does not shall we????

&#8212;used to express frequent, customary, or habitual action or natural tendency or disposition <will get angry over nothing> <will work one day and loaf the next>
3
&#8212;used to express futurity <tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite &#8212; Tennessee Williams>

4
&#8212;used to express capability or sufficiency <the back seat will hold three passengers>

5
&#8212;used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb <that will be the babysitter>

6
a &#8212;used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will> b &#8212;used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

7
&#8212;used to express a command, exhortation, or injunction <you will do as I say, at once>

I don't say this to shout you down or insult you,

Well, that is good, cuz ya didn't.

but to say that election as in some people are elect and some aren't is a weak theology at best that only serves to insult and alienate many.

Well.... we know that some are elect and some aren't. Now don't we. The bible speaks of it and the evidence show it. Not all people are saved.

God would be the world's worst neglectful parent if He was creating kids only to not want to take responsibility of them.

God created Adam and Eve.... because of their fall we now have a fallen humanity. That is not God's fault. I have a 20 year old that has chosen to not to live the life of the desire of my heart. your point?

Election is the same as saying "I'm not the baby's daddy."

No it's not.... God is not the Father of all. This is your first mistake... God only becomes the Father of those who are BORN AGAIN from ABOVE. We are adopted children of God. Jesus says that those that are not are children of the devil.

Now tell me what is the matter with this sentence....

"I will go shopping today, but I won't."


How would you make that a correct sentence?

See.... there is a marked difference between 'will' and 'desire'.

Have a good day!

 

[washedagain]

It is in Scripture.

Where?

 

[NNSV]

snip

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

snip

I agree more, or less.

I believe that in the beginning we were all in spirit with God before a terrestrial person was created by Him. Part of me believes this to be the time in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:25 (especially from the earth being void and desolate, to the separation of light and darkness.) That separation is, in my opinion, the same separation He has always spoken of: lambs from goats, wheat from chaff, etc.

Moreover, I believe those separated as "light" (which is "ore" in Hebrew, and literally means illumination in every sense) are some of the same ones that are born as a human, and is part of God's election. Not to say that a "non-elect" cannot be saved, or light. I think "the election" has a specific job.


All that to say this: we may not remember it (which may be the point at some times,) but we had a life before earth, and we will have a life after earth. Before earth, God knew us, and knew which spirit could do this and that. Just like He knew no one could be Solomon except Solomon, or Christ except Christ, He knows from the foundation of everything who could be "the election." It's like perfectly precise and accurate spiritual job placement: He looked at all of our spiritual resumes and gave us the job at which we could be most prosperous for ourselves, and especially for Him.

 

[Pinkman]

I believe that in the beginning we were all in spirit with God before a terrestrial person was created by Him. .....

Moreover, I believe those separated as "light" (which is "ore" in Hebrew, and literally means illumination in every sense) are some of the same ones that are born as a human, and is part of God's election. Not to say that a "non-elect" cannot be saved, or light. I think "the election" has a specific job.

The above very complicated stuff. The Bible is much clearer. E.g
God "works all things after the counsel of His own WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

The elect chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated unto the adoption of children? Because such was "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:5).

Calvin describes it in abundantly simple terms.

"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision..”

Whether we humans like it or not (Calvin did not, describing it as 'the terrible' decree' ), is not the point. God's will WILL be done.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Lets look at the rest of the definitions of the word will that desire does not shall we????

&#8212;used to express frequent, customary, or habitual action or natural tendency or disposition <will get angry over nothing> <will work one day and loaf the next>
3
&#8212;used to express futurity <tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite &#8212; Tennessee Williams>

4
&#8212;used to express capability or sufficiency <the back seat will hold three passengers>

5
&#8212;used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb <that will be the babysitter>

6
a &#8212;used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will> b &#8212;used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

7
&#8212;used to express a command, exhortation, or injunction <you will do as I say, at once>




Well, that is good, cuz ya didn't.



Well.... we know that some are elect and some aren't. Now don't we. The bible speaks of it and the evidence show it. Not all people are saved.




God created Adam and Eve.... because of their fall we now have a fallen humanity. That is not God's fault. I have a 20 year old that has chosen to not to live the life of the desire of my heart. your point?




No it's not.... God is not the Father of all. This is your first mistake... God only becomes the Father of those who are BORN AGAIN from ABOVE. We are adopted children of God. Jesus says that those that are not are children of the devil.

Now tell me what is the matter with this sentence....

"I will go shopping today, but I won't."


How would you make that a correct sentence?

See.... there is a marked difference between 'will' and 'desire'.

Have a good day!

You believe what you will believe then, but I don't see how that will speak to the hearts of people. If anything it raises anxiety, and ultimately alienates people from Christ. Love for Christ becomes fearing Christ. Terrified fear, not honoring fear. I know, that's the kind of fear that lead me to Christ and drove me from Christ.

 

[Pinkman]

Every single person who wants to be saved can be saved.

That's what calvin believed.

The theology that bears his name (it's not his theology, he didn't invent it) is rather getting to the question of: why do some want to be saved and not others? Is it because God works to change hearts and convert sinners, or because simply some people are smarter than others?

Calvin and the reformers believed it was by God's grace that anyone at all ever wants to be saved to begin with. Nobody, by fallen nature, desires to submit to Christ. It takes a new nature to do that. One that isn't spiritually dead.

The only person who wants to be saved is the person who has been given the gift of wanting to be saved.

Those given the gift are the elect, chosen before the foundation of the earth.

That is what Calvin taught.

God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death.
Institutes Book 3, Ch 23, Section 6

The only question is when God did this not why. Calvin is not over clear on this.

God “Predestines people to damnation” ? e.g
Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.” Book 3, Ch 21, Section 5

Or did God "Pass over them" ?
"Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." Book 3, Ch 23, Section 1

Regardless -
"...God could foresee nothing good in man except what he had already determined to bestow by the benefit of his election,.." Book 3, Ch 22, Section5

And to those elect he gave the gift of wanting to be saved.

 

[Pinkman]

Calvin's writing does seem harsh. However Calvin did not invent doctrine. From Augustine in the 5th century. Through the great reformers of the 16th century to the present day, these doctrines abide. E.g

www scribd com/doc/10003308/Wayne-Grudem-Teaching-on-Election-and-Reprobation-Part-1

 

[washedagain]

You believe what you will believe then, but I don't see how that will speak to the hearts of people. If anything it raises anxiety, and ultimately alienates people from Christ. Love for Christ becomes fearing Christ. Terrified fear, not honoring fear. I know, that's the kind of fear that lead me to Christ and drove me from Christ.

Sorry that causes you anxiety... Truth sometimes does that to people when they are trying to avoid it.

Be anxious for nothing but with prayer and suplication.....

Lots of people don't think the word of God speaks to the heart of people.

Interesting.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Sorry that causes you anxiety... Truth sometimes does that to people when they are trying to avoid it.

Be anxious for nothing but with prayer and suplication.....

Lots of people don't think the word of God speaks to the heart of people.

Interesting.

Hard to be not to be anxious when several of my friends and family are in hell Mrs.

 

[washedagain]

Hard to be not to be anxious when several of my friends and family are in hell Mrs.

Several of my friends and family are in hell as well. I am not anxious a bit. Sad, yes, anxious, no.
Why are you anxious over something you have ABSOLUTELY no control over?

I don't get it.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Several of my friends and family are in hell as well. I am not anxious a bit. Sad, yes, anxious, no.
Why are you anxious over something you have ABSOLUTELY no control over?

I don't get it.

I worry about anyone who makes these kinds of claims.

Shalom. Kol Tuv.

 

[Zeena]

Well.... we know that some are elect and some aren't. Now don't we. The bible speaks of it and the evidence show it. Not all people are saved.

May I ask where you see election tied in with Salvation, Scripturally please?

No it's not.... God is not the Father of all. This is your first mistake... God only becomes the Father of those who are BORN AGAIN from ABOVE. We are adopted children of God. Jesus says that those that are not are children of the devil.

Did the devil create them?

 

[washedagain]

May I ask where you see election tied in with Salvation, Scripturally please?

Did the devil create them?

If the elect are not saved, what are they?

Of course the devil did not create them.

God is the creator of all... now show me scripture that God is the father of all.

If God is the Father of all, why does the bible tell us that we are adopted into His Family upon the new birth? Why would there be a need for adoption if He is already our Father?

Thanks.

 

[RobertZ]

May I ask where you see election tied in with Salvation, Scripturally please?

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

 

[washedagain]

I worry about anyone who makes these kinds of claims.

Shalom. Kol Tuv.

That is not what you said... you said your were anxious for those who you knew that went to hell.

You sure are anxious and worry alot. What is that from?